Technical Fiat panda 1.1 cam belt change (tensioning the cam belt after changing)

[koalar]

I now see why unfortunately it will be under an aluminium heat shield, those bolts, or what's left of them are probably not coming out without angle grinding the heads off, which I don't want to do at this point in time.
I'll wait a few days for the V5C to show up in the post and get the engine number of that.
Cheers again, will reply to your post Re: which engine when I have it.

Correct

I hammer on an imperial socket (3/8 I believe) and snap them off if needed

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Okay that's brilliant, I'll check my engine and find out which engine I have tomorrow. Can I ask for myself and generally for others that might read this thread, how the up to and from engines are both tensioned?
Would be brilliant to find my engine number and get back to you, would be super cool if you could please explain both so it's here to be found on a Google search for anyone.
Many thanks

First off, buy the Haynes manual - Manual No 5558 - and make friends with the good people at Shop4parts: https://www.shop4parts.co.uk/ They are very knowledgeable indeed and also friendly and not at all pushy. I've bought quite a bit of stuff from them over the years and never had a wrong part supplied yet. Some unusual brands because they source direct from Italy, but all good quality stuff.

Next, regarding those engine numbers. According to Mr Haynes, up to engine number 2533527 the engine will have a timing mark on the top, camshaft, pulley as well as on the crankshaft pulley. From 2533528 the cam pulley, which is still a solid metal pulley, lost it's timing mark. So there is no reference mark for timing purposes and you'll need the timing tool set to do the job unless you take a chance and do it by the "tippex" method. My 1.2 has this type of pulley so I bought this set of tools off ebay which has worked splendidly and wasn't a lot of money:



If you decide to just mark everything up, transfer the marks to the new belt and reassemble - the afore mentioned "tippex" method - you need to be very sure the timing is correct - or that it's the first belt change since it left the factory when you can be pretty sure the timing will be correct. If you're sitting scratching your head wondering what I mean then you need to know that on engines with no timing mark on the top pulley, the pulley and camshaft are not keyed! The official procedure for fitting and timing a new belt involves slackening that top cam pulley retaining bolt, just slightly so the pulley can spin on the shaft. Then, with all the locking tools fitted, so crank and cam both locked, the new belt is fitted and tensioned then the big cam pulley bolt is retightened. If this is done incorrectly the timing will be "off" and you can't check this without the timing tools. So, if the engine is unknown to you, you can't be sure this will have been done correctly without the timing tools to check. There's loads on the forum about timing up these engines, have a search around and see what you can find. There's a definitive guide in the guides section of the grande Punto section

So first thing you need to do is take the wee top belt cover off and look at the front outer rim of the cam pulley. At the age your car is I suspect you'll have the one that's marked. This means the pulley is keyed to the shaft and the engine is timed by lining up the crankshaft pulley mark with it's corresponding mark on the oil pump casing and camshaft pulley mark with it's mark on the head, fit the belt, tension it - if you're used to doing it by the quarter turn method that works as well as any - Turn the engine over a couple of revs to check the valves and pistons aren't getting "chummy" and you're done.

Later engines, like mine, have a spring loaded automatic tensioner which is just "wound up" with a pair of circlip pliers - or the proper tool if you have one - until two pointers overlap. But i suspect your's will have the older "solid" type which you just twist until the belt feels "right" and then lock off with it's locking nut.

Much later on, 2012? they introduced a VVT camshaft pulley - my boy's Punto has one - which is slightly daunting if you've never done one, but actually, in the event, is no more difficult to do than the solid pulley (although you have to take a plug out of the front of it to get at it's retaining nut so you need a nice big bit of rag to catch the oil spill. Your's isn't going to be one of these though so we can forget them for now.

So your first thing to do is whip that top cover off and see if the top pulley has a timing mark on it. If it does, oh happy days, no timing tools needed, all very simple. Here's the link to Andy's guide: https://www.fiatforum.com/guides/1-2-8v-evo-2-engine-cam-belt-replacement.732/ Much of which applies to all FIRE engines.

Hope that's a help. These engines aren't too bad to work on. getting the bolt out of the bottom of the engine mount is slightly difficult due to access but once you've undone the mount to wing bolts you can gently lever the engine over to the N/S a little to give more clearance. Block of wood and jack under the sump to take the weight. But look carefully at the sump first as at this age it's very likely to be seriously rusted and weakened, unless someone has fitted a new one.

Do let us know how it all goes. and feel free to ask more questions if you need to

 

[Robjohnjones]

Correct

I hammer on an imperial socket (3/8 I believe) and snap them off if needed

Added a cheap battery rattle gun, bolt extractors and a blow torch to the shopping list, I have a feeling for the minimal cost for what will be an ongoing project that will be £60 well spent.
ECU is throwing a code causing the check engine light to be on, strongly suspect the O2 sensor, will know for sure when my code reader turns up.
I've been and read the threads about those and how they're likely to be stuck, so that heat shield is going to have to come out of there and the blow torch will be needed to heat the O2 sensor to stand a chance of getting that out.

 

[Robjohnjones]

First off, buy the Haynes manual - Manual No 5558 - and make friends with the good people at Shop4parts: https://www.shop4parts.co.uk/ They are very knowledgeable indeed and also friendly and not at all pushy. I've bought quite a bit of stuff from them over the years and never had a wrong part supplied yet. Some unusual brands because they source direct from Italy, but all good quality stuff.

Next, regarding those engine numbers. According to Mr Haynes, up to engine number 2533527 the engine will have a timing mark on the top, camshaft, pulley as well as on the crankshaft pulley. From 2533528 the cam pulley, which is still a solid metal pulley, lost it's timing mark. So there is no reference mark for timing purposes and you'll need the timing tool set to do the job unless you take a chance and do it by the "tippex" method. My 1.2 has this type of pulley so I bought this set of tools off ebay which has worked splendidly and wasn't a lot of money:
View attachment 422460
View attachment 422461
View attachment 422462
If you decide to just mark everything up, transfer the marks to the new belt and reassemble - the afore mentioned "tippex" method - you need to be very sure the timing is correct - or that it's the first belt change since it left the factory when you can be pretty sure the timing will be correct. If you're sitting scratching your head wondering what I mean then you need to know that on engines with no timing mark on the top pulley, the pulley and camshaft are not keyed! The official procedure for fitting and timing a new belt involves slackening that top cam pulley retaining bolt, just slightly so the pulley can spin on the shaft. Then, with all the locking tools fitted, so crank and cam both locked, the new belt is fitted and tensioned then the big cam pulley bolt is retightened. If this is done incorrectly the timing will be "off" and you can't check this without the timing tools. So, if the engine is unknown to you, you can't be sure this will have been done correctly without the timing tools to check. There's loads on the forum about timing up these engines, have a search around and see what you can find. There's a definitive guide in the guides section of the grande Punto section

So first thing you need to do is take the wee top belt cover off and look at the front outer rim of the cam pulley. At the age your car is I suspect you'll have the one that's marked. This means the pulley is keyed to the shaft and the engine is timed by lining up the crankshaft pulley mark with it's corresponding mark on the oil pump casing and camshaft pulley mark with it's mark on the head, fit the belt, tension it - if you're used to doing it by the quarter turn method that works as well as any - Turn the engine over a couple of revs to check the valves and pistons aren't getting "chummy" and you're done.

Later engines, like mine, have a spring loaded automatic tensioner which is just "wound up" with a pair of circlip pliers - or the proper tool if you have one - until two pointers overlap. But i suspect your's will have the older "solid" type which you just twist until the belt feels "right" and then lock off with it's locking nut.

Much later on, 2012? they introduced a VVT camshaft pulley - my boy's Punto has one - which is slightly daunting if you've never done one, but actually, in the event, is no more difficult to do than the solid pulley (although you have to take a plug out of the front of it to get at it's retaining nut so you need a nice big bit of rag to catch the oil spill. Your's isn't going to be one of these though so we can forget them for now.

So your first thing to do is whip that top cover off and see if the top pulley has a timing mark on it. If it does, oh happy days, no timing tools needed, all very simple. Here's the link to Andy's guide: https://www.fiatforum.com/guides/1-2-8v-evo-2-engine-cam-belt-replacement.732/ Much of which applies to all FIRE engines.

Hope that's a help. These engines aren't too bad to work on. getting the bolt out of the bottom of the engine mount is slightly difficult due to access but once you've undone the mount to wing bolts you can gently lever the engine over to the N/S a little to give more clearance. Block of wood and jack under the sump to take the weight. But look carefully at the sump first as at this age it's very likely to be seriously rusted and weakened, unless someone has fitted a new one.

Do let us know how it all goes. and feel free to ask more questions if you need to

Thanks, I reckon it's going to be the type with the timing marks as well being a 2004 car.
I'll not be tackling the cam belt for a little bit, I've got to get the car though a MOT in a month and a half!
Pistons shouldn't ever come into contact with this engine should they? Varesecrazy pointed out to me earlier on this thread that the early Panda engines aren't interference engines?
Ta very much for all the information.
I've got a manual, that's what got me a bit freaked out about belt tension, saying it needed to be checked by Fiat extra.

​

 

[Yolanda]

Try removing the sensor with the engine hot they sometimes come out easy that way. If you do use the blow torch heat the the part the sensor screws into rather than the sensor itself.

 

[Robjohnjones]

Try removing the sensor with the engine hot they sometimes come out easy that way. If you do use the blow torch heat the the part the sensor screws into rather than the sensor itself.

Cheers, I'll give removing it with everything hot from the a go engine first.
From the looks of what I can see it should be possible to get at it with a 22mm spanner (If they are 22mm!!!) which should give me a lot more chance than one of those split oxygen sensor sockets that flex and mess up the nut bit on the sensor.

 

[eeeno]

"Much later on, 2012? they introduced a VVT camshaft pulley"

I'm afraid that much earlier engines have VVT, but I can only remember a year 2006 and it being on Grande Puntos and other models. Maybe Pandas got it much later.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I'm afraid that much earlier engines have VVT, but I can only remember a year 2006 and it being on Grande Puntos and other models. Maybe Pandas got it much later.

Ah, yes you're right, the 500 had it right from the beginning didn't it? Sorry, I'm pretty much all Panda orientated.

edit - Panda didn't get it 'till the very last of the 169 model in 2011.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Thanks, I reckon it's going to be the type with the timing marks as well being a 2004 car.
I'll not be tackling the cam belt for a little bit, I've got to get the car though a MOT in a month and a half!
Pistons shouldn't ever come into contact with this engine should they? Varesecrazy pointed out to me earlier on this thread that the early Panda engines aren't interference engines?
Ta very much for all the information.
I've got a manual, that's what got me a bit freaked out about belt tension, saying it needed to be checked by Fiat extra.

​

I don't think any of the 1.1 are interference? and the 1.2 became interference when it adopted the VVT cam pulley?

As regards getting it double checked by a Fiat workshop? I recon that's just Haynes covering their backs in case you get it wrong?

 

[koalar]

The 1.1 in the Panda didn't get the updates the 1.2 got

As of a 2010 1.1 I worked on

There no VVT
Still uses two coils instead of 4 in one block
Not flyby wire

With the later round oil filler type (around 2006) you should uses a different locking tool to the 1.2 VVT.

As it's officially timed with cylinder 1 at top dead centre instead of half way down as in the 1.2

These are not safe free wheeling engines, will any damage occur probably not.



Aleady in post 15 is the correct procedure

.

Home Page

aftersales.fiat.com

 

[koalar]

I don't think any of the 1.1 are interference? and the 1.2 became interference when it adopted the VVT cam pulley?

As regards getting it double checked by a Fiat workshop? I recon that's just Haynes covering their backs in case you get it wrong?

The Internet is incorrect.

Any angine where the pistons and valves come within 0.1mm (4 thousands) when cold and turned by hand is classed as interference

That to allow for heat expansion of the connecting rod, stretch at high revs, wear and so on


According to fiat, delphi, wurth, most Panda engines are classed as interference. The same engine in the Punto has a lower compression and has more clearence and are classed as freewheeling

The exception were a few early 1.1

Because it's not classed as freewheeling does not mean damage will occur if the belt breaks.

 

[koalar]

Ah okay, cool. Could you possibly send me a link to a set on eBay?

I'm all about making life easier.
****Edited****

is this one?

Camshaft Engine Timing Tool for Fiat 500/ Punto Evo/Panda 1.1 1.2 1.4 8V Engine | eBay

Grande Punto (2007-2008). Timing Tool Kit for locking camshaft and crankshaft when changing timing belt on Fiat and Chrysler 1.1 Eco, 1.2 and 1.4 8V. - Panda (2003-2012). - EVO point (2009-2012). Timing Tool>for VW&AUDI.

www.ebay.co.uk

No

The 1.1 with a square oil filler does not require any locking tools

But if you have the latter evo2 with round oil filter that is the wrong timing tool as the angle of the cam holding tool is different

the correct tool is part number 2000004000 or maybe written as 2.000.004.000

I can't recommend a seller though

Maybe

REPAIR SHOP'S FIXT | Tuynder B.V.

Buy REPAIR SHOP'S FIXT 2000004000? Tuynder offers the certainty of original car parts and favorable prices. Order online!

tuynder.com

 

[koalar]

No

The 1.1 with a square oil filler does not require any locking tools

But if you have the latter evo2 with round oil filter that is the wrong timing tool as the angle of the cam holding tool is different

the correct tool is part number 2000004000 or maybe written as 2.000.004.000

I can't recommend a seller though

Maybe

REPAIR SHOP'S FIXT | Tuynder B.V.

Buy REPAIR SHOP'S FIXT 2000004000? Tuynder offers the certainty of original car parts and favorable prices. Order online!

tuynder.com

Sorry I got it wrong

Early square oil filler no tools required up to engine 2533527


Later square oil filter from 2533528 tool 2000004000

Round oil filter evo2 the more standard 2000004400 and 2000004500 tools

 

[Robjohnjones]

Sorry I got it wrong

Early square oil filler no tools required up to engine 2533527


Later square oil filter from 2533528 tool 2000004000

Round oil filter evo2 the more standard 2000004400 and 2000004500 tools

Thanks, mine has a square oil cap, so it's one of the early engines with the timing marks.

Thanks to everyone who has replied to my post.
I'm confidant to tackle the cam belt when the time comes now.

 

[Robjohnjones]

The Internet is incorrect.

Any angine where the pistons and valves come within 0.1mm (4 thousands) when cold and turned by hand is classed as interference

That to allow for heat expansion of the connecting rod, stretch at high revs, wear and so on


According to fiat, delphi, wurth, most Panda engines are classed as interference. The same engine in the Punto has a lower compression and has more clearence and are classed as freewheeling

The exception were a few early 1.1

Because it's not classed as freewheeling does not mean damage will occur if the belt breaks.

Thanks, I'm replying at this stage purely as a point of interest, as I'm fascinated.
From what I can tell, the MK3's first started production in 2003?
I have a 2004 car, the engine fitted has a square oil cap.
Would it by chance be the engines fitted with the square oil caps that are freewheeling? (Thanks for cluing me up as to the correct term for a non interference engine also)
I've known one car, a Ford that was an interference engine to survive a cam belt breaking, was my mothers car. She put the clutch in and costed to a stop and didn't try to restart the engine, and called my old man. He found the cam belt was snapped and opted to try a new belt before dismantling the engine because it was the cheaper option, and he was an engineer and knew there was a chance no damage had occurred.
I'd really love to discover if the engine I have in my car is a freewheeling one or not, and generally learn which engines are if mine isn't.
I've really taken to this little car, and I'm considering, in time picking up a second engine with the plans of stripping and rebuilding it, mainly as I've not stripped an engine totally down in over a decade, as I'd like to involve my son, and of course because it would be a really nice side effect to have a reconditioned engine to drop in the car at some point.

 

[koalar]

That's how I read it

From round oil filler fiat moved from changing the belt at TDC to all the pistons halfway down to save damage. They had to make new tooling, write new instruction, train their staff and so on. I am sure its a decision that would not have been taken lightly

However autodata only list one Panda engine as freewheeling and that's the pre 2533527 1.1

Who right, who knows

 

[DaveMcT]

Old timing belts fail by losing teeth. The increase in belt stress as engine revs rise from tickover is the final straw. e.g. Car stalls at a junction and wont restart.

 

[Robjohnjones]

That's how I read it

From round oil filler fiat moved from changing the belt at TDC to all the pistons halfway down to save damage. They had to make new tooling, write new instruction, train their staff and so on. I am sure its a decision that would not have been taken lightly

However autodata only list one Panda engine as freewheeling and that's the pre 2533527 1.1

Who right, who knows

Thanks very much, I'll hopefully get that exhaust shield off one way or another soon, and get to the engine number so I can check for sure.
Slowly knocking what I know will need doing for MOT out of the way, then I can start thinking about this cam belt change, which thanks to the good people on the forum I'm now totally happy with cracking on with.
Thanks for the information

 

[Robjohnjones]

That's how I read it

From round oil filler fiat moved from changing the belt at TDC to all the pistons halfway down to save damage. They had to make new tooling, write new instruction, train their staff and so on. I am sure its a decision that would not have been taken lightly

However autodata only list one Panda engine as freewheeling and that's the pre 2533527 1.1

Who right, who knows

My Engine is pre 2533527 and is a 1.1
So I have a freewheeling engine with timing marks.
Many thanks to everyone again.

 

[koalar]

My Engine is pre 2533527 and is a 1.1
So I have a freewheeling engine with timing marks.
Many thanks to everyone again.

Great.

You need this information when ordering
Parts such as
Timing belt
Tensioner
Water pump
Crank pulley
Cam pulley