Technical Panda 1.1 2006 starting problem

[koalar]

Can you hear the fuel pump priming evertime you turn the ignition on no but fuel rail is pressurised as above

Let's check this first

Remove the petrol cap and listen here while someone switches the ignition on and off a few times. It should prime every time not intermittently. A nice clear buzz for 2 seconds

Video here

Koalar random thoughts | FIAT Panda (Mk3)

Got the car here for a few day 1.2 petrol 2011 Going to post a few pictures and video of some simple and basic tests My well be a bit random as they pop into my head and might sort them into the proper order later

www.fiatforum.com

 

[varesecrazy]

So, you ruled out skipped timing belt?

 

[barrycash]

We're almost there

If I read this right

You have taken the top timing cover off

Operated the starter

And the belt dosent move

No the belt does move and the marks I made when fitting a new belt indicate that it hasn't slipped.

 

[varesecrazy]

No the belt does move and the marks I made when fitting a new belt indicate that it hasn't slipped.

They happily run 1 or 2 teeth out

But 7 is too much.. All tried on here

 

[koalar]

Then I tried operating the inition key. The starter whirls happily and the road wheels move. But the pistons and the timing belt don't. I don't understand.

So the timing belt does not move here when the starter is engaged

No the belt does move and the marks I made when fitting a new belt indicate that it hasn't slipped.

Yet here it does move,

It's confusing information but let's move on

Can you hear the fuel pump priming evertime you turn the ignition on no but fuel rail is pressurised as above

Again conflicting information

Unless the pump is priming there no pressure in the rail

Without the engine running there shouldn't be any long term pressure in the rail, the pump only primes at ignition on and quickly self bleeds off and only operates again when the ECU receive a rpm signal

No noise from pump at ignition on normally means it's not going to start

To test post 8

 

[barrycash]

So the timing belt does not move here when the starter is engaged


Yet here it does move,

It's confusing information but let's move on

Again conflicting information

Unless the pump is priming there no pressure in the rail

Without the engine running there shouldn't be any long term pressure in the rail, the pump only primes at ignition on and quickly self bleeds off and only operates again when the ECU receive a rpm signal

No noise from pump at ignition on normally means it's not going to start

To test post 8

The pump does operate when the ignition is turned on. Sorry about the confusion over the timing belt. That was becauseof the way I was checking it. It does move when I tune the engine over. I have disconnected the crankshaft sensor and that produces an error code, so that is working. Disconnecting the camshaft sensor does not produce an error code, which surprises me, but measuring the output with a meter it does vary depending on how close it is to metal. So that appears to be working as well.

 

[koalar]

We already know the Crank sensor is working

No signal, no spark

Cam is irrelevant

What are the sparkplugs like

Dry
Wet
Oil
Fouled
Rich
Lean
Steam cleaned
All the same
Some different
Wide gap
And loads more

It's easier to post a picture

Does it try and fire if you put a teaspoon of petrol in each cylinder

 

[Yolanda]

Would it not be easier to pour a drop into the throttle body.

 

[toromod]

My brother's 1,1 Active Eco (2009) used to be problematic for starting, sometimes refusing to start when switched off after driving normally, or after going over a sudden bump - it was finally sorted by cleaning the ecu multipin connectors, very, very carefully as the pins are so small! That was 2 years ago and appears t o be fine - might be worth a look?

 

[koalar]

Would it not be easier to pour a drop into the throttle body.

Plugs need to come out anyway

There's no point in keep cranking the engine, and doing nothing

From the throttle body I would use propane

 

[Yolanda]

It won't fire without the plugs in no matter where you put the Petrol.

 

[koalar]

It won't fire without the plugs in no matter where you put the Petrol.

Obviously

The original poster has already confirmed there is a spark,

Has already confirmed the timing

We really need to see the plugs, we are at the moment no further forward than at the start of this thread. It will not fire if flooded

Assuming they are dry

It's simple to drop a teaspoon of decent petrol down each plug hole before putting the plugs back to try it

If there's something, at least we have a direction to go, fuel

It's a very simple test, done it many times, it works. We need to start to move forward,

There are loads of other ways, easy start, propane.

 

[Terry899]

Wonder if the map sensor is working properly. I had a faulty one and sometimes it started fine and other times not at all. Very simple engine, he has probably flooded it, he didn't mention if it turns over at normal speed

 

[barrycash]

Thanks for all the suggestions. I've done a compression test on the cylinders.
The compression test results are:
No 1 100 psi
No 2 118 psi
No 3 115 psi
No 4 75 psi
Does anyone know what the pressure should be?

There was a small amount of water in the throttle body and on the plugs. I drained off some petrol from the fuel line and there is no water in the petrol. I dried everything out including the fuel rail.
The peculiar thing is that with the petrol pipe disconnected the engine runs for a while. Reconnect the pipe and it won't go. Disconnect the pipe and it runs for short while. Reconnect it and it won't fire. I'm baffled.

I'll try of the suggestions you've made and report back

 

[varesecrazy]

@120,

75 Isnt great, did you see those differences repeatably? (so not just a tired battery tailing off cranking speed)

 

[koalar]

Mine is over 200 psi,

From cold

Dry test

Average battery

Good battery timed correctly I wouldn't expect anything under 175

At 75 psi is will not fire at idle,

Are you sure the test is done properly down 100psi on all cylinders is either the test gauge is faulty or the timing is out

 

[varesecrazy]

@barrycash

 

[koalar]

The peculiar thing is that with the petrol pipe disconnected the engine runs for a while. Reconnect the pipe and it won't go. Disconnect the pipe and it runs for short while. Reconnect it and it won't fire. I'm baffled.

Is it a blue or black pipe you are disconecting

 

[barrycash]

Is it a blue or black pipe you are disconecting

Black. The one that fits into the end of the fuel rail.

 

[koalar]

Great

What's the water in the throttle body like

Clear or mayo