Technical Fiat panda 1.1 cam belt change (tensioning the cam belt after changing)

[DaveMcT]

You do not need to buy new timing belt pulleys. You do not need to disturb those already on the engine.

 

[koalar]

You do not need to buy new timing belt pulleys. You do not need to disturb those already on the engine.

I only pointed out which parts of the engine that were different as in the Panda this engine was only used for a year or so

It an early engine with different belt width and teeth profile


Of cause if you are only changing the belt

You only need a belt kit

Or if you want to do the pump as well

Belt kit + pump

 

[DaveMcT]

Sorry my comment looked terse. It wasn't meant to be.

 

[Yolanda]

The engine No is on the V5 or log book to us oldies but if the car has had an engine change somewhere along the line an the DVLA wasn't informed it can be missleading.

 

[Robjohnjones]

Cheers everyone. I got the heat shield off, impact wrench and bolt extractors.
Also got the seized oxygen senor out, in the end I cut the wires and used a deep 22mm socket on the impact wrench, that's the only way it was coming out.
Now I've get the cam cover gasket to do, just ordered one and some sealant. Wish me luck!
Getting closer to it being cam belt time with every MOT job that's done.
Had the sill welded the other day, was cheaper than I could buy the equipment so all good.

 

[Yolanda]

The camshaft front oil seal can leak as mine did, but I didn't realise this till after I changed the cam cover gasket and cam belt. I still had a slight oil leak. To change the the seal you have to remove the cam belt then the camshaft pully. So have a good look to make sure where the leak is coming from before you go about changing the cam cover gasket. As the seal and gasket are not expensive I personally would do them when doing the belt.
You can also get an oil leak from the other end where the coils are, but that's just an o ring seal and you don't have to remove the cam cover to replace it.
If in any doupt just search on this forum for more detailed discriptions on how to undertake these jobs. That's what I did with perfect results.

 

[DaveMcT]

Had the sill welded the other day, was cheaper than I could buy the equipment so all good.

You MUST get a look inside the heat-affected box sections with an endoscope camera and give the whole inside area a good coating of cavity wax. LanoGuard sounds good but Waxoyl is better than nothing.

 

[Pauldmann]

Hi there, I’m in need of finding the correct timing belt tensioner tool for a 2004 Panda 1.1, It’s the first engine variant pre 2533527engine number. I have fitted a new belt and water pump, and carried out the “90 degree twist” method of tensioning. I’d like to double check the tension as I’ve noticed a noise that (I imagine) could be from the belt. I see from this thread there are different tensioning tools depending on the engine variant. Can anyone help with this? Thanks in advance

 

[koalar]

Early narrow belts are tensioned by frequency

An app on you phone can do the same

Timing belt tension by frequency | FIAT Panda (Mk3)

I'm almost certain I saw it on here but now I can't find it. Web, best I can find is values for a 188 A.4. This is a pre 2533527 1.2 8v. Got a 'phone app ready! Anyone know the tune?!

www.fiatforum.com

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Hi there, I’m in need of finding the correct timing belt tensioner tool for a 2004 Panda 1.1, It’s the first engine variant pre 2533527engine number. I have fitted a new belt and water pump, and carried out the “90 degree twist” method of tensioning. I’d like to double check the tension as I’ve noticed a noise that (I imagine) could be from the belt. I see from this thread there are different tensioning tools depending on the engine variant. Can anyone help with this? Thanks in advance

Ah yes. How to apply tension to belts where the earlier, non automatic (spring loaded) type of tensioner is used. The older Fiats are not alone in using this type of tensioner. In fact pretty much all the older stuff, from many different manufacturers, used them and there were a variety of manufacturer recommended procedures for belt tightening. I worked mostly in small family owned garages where almost any vehicle that rolled through the doors was accepted so individual specialist manufacturer belt tensioning tools were often not available. The 90 degree or quarter turn on longest belt run method was very common and gives good results if done carefully.

As the years rolled by and I did more and more belts I evolved my own way of doing it which was/is: After carefully fitting the new belt I would apply tension until the belt was quite tight but not so tight as to cause possible damage. Turn the engine over a few times to settle the belt fully into the pulleys and allow it to take up it's normal running position. Then I'd slacken the belt until, on the longest run, it could be slightly depressed with a thumb or finger. So now it's slightly too slack. Then with my right hand - I'm right handed - I'd make a "U" shape with my thumb and forefinger and get the belt between the two - so, usually thumb inside on the toothed side and forefinger on the outside or smooth side. Now, keeping the fingers stiff, move your hand back and forward quite quickly - so "feeling" the slack in the belt. Now, continuing to move your hand and feeling the slack with your fingers, start to tighten the tensioning bearing. As you tighten it the slack on the belt will decrease until it's all used up. When the free play is used up that's when the tensioner locking nut is tightened. So, if you've done it right, the belt will now have no detectable free play but also neither will it be as tight as a bow string. You've adjusted it until the free play is removed.

Now the interesting bit. You've been doing this adjustment with the engine cold and, as you've turned the engine over for a number of revolutions with the belt fully tightened before you started to do fine adjustment (helps to have the plugs out when doing that) the belt will be exactly aligned with the normal running position it's going to take up in service and now you've adjusted it until it's not "tight" but also not in any way "slack". You'll find now that when the engine is run up to full operating temperature the belt feels a little tighter? This is because the engine block and cylinder head is now good and hot. Heat causes expansion and this expansion of head and block actually causes the centre distance between the camshaft and crankshaft to very slightly increase which ensures the belt is slightly more tightly tensioned when the engine is fully up to running temperature. I've found this allows for any slight settling of the belt in initial service, bearing in mind that belts don't really "stretch" but the toothed side does flatten and compact slightly as it settles down. In fact this effect is why, if you follow the official Fiat fitting procedure with the automatic tensioner, which involves an initial over tightening of the belt and rotating the engine for several revolutions before finally setting the tension, they then recommend that a "run" belt, or any belt, even a new one, once fitted and fully tightened, should not then be reused.

My days on the tools, when I was earning my daily bread repairing and maintaining customer vehicles was when stuff like the Sierra/Cortina/Transit with the Pinto engine, Morris Marina/Princess/etc with the "O" series engine. Sometimes a Fiat 128 or similar, you get the idea, and all of these had manually tensioned belts and I would do them as I've described above - did my own cars the same way - Never had a problem, indeed the earlier Pandas we've had in the family were all done that way too. I much prefer the spring loaded tensioner though and was very pleased to find Becky, our 2010 1,2 Panda has one of these.

As to belt noise. There's been quite a number of posts recently from people with belt noise after changing the belt, indeed Becky has always had a bit of a belt "zizz" she had it before I changed her belt and still has it with the new belt fitted (5 years ago - and the belt's been fine) An over tightened belt makes a quite distinctive noise which, once heard, you won't confuse with anything else but I find it difficult to describe it here in words.

I see you're in the Nottingham area, If the noise is a worry for you, I'm wondering if there's an experience forum member near you who could maybe pop over and have a listen? I'll also add the "disclaimer" that my way of doing these belt and the "feel" I have for doing them has been developed over many years and is highly "tuned" to the feel in my hands and the experience of doing, probably, hundreds of them. Because it's so subjective there's no way I could guarantee that you'll achieve the same result. So, if you decide to try "my" way of doing this and you get it wrong the results could be catastrophically expensive although, to the best of my Knowledge, the 1.1 litres were all non interference so it should be impossible for the valves and pistons to get "friendly". Stick to the recommended procedure to stay safe but i've detailed my way of doing it because I thought it might be of interest not only to you but to other experienced forum members

 

[Pauldmann]

Ah yes. How to apply tension to belts where the earlier, non automatic (spring loaded) type of tensioner is used. The older Fiats are not alone in using this type of tensioner. In fact pretty much all the older stuff, from many different manufacturers, used them and there were a variety of manufacturer recommended procedures for belt tightening. I worked mostly in small family owned garages where almost any vehicle that rolled through the doors was accepted so individual specialist manufacturer belt tensioning tools were often not available. The 90 degree or quarter turn on longest belt run method was very common and gives good results if done carefully.

As the years rolled by and I did more and more belts I evolved my own way of doing it which was/is: After carefully fitting the new belt I would apply tension until the belt was quite tight but not so tight as to cause possible damage. Turn the engine over a few times to settle the belt fully into the pulleys and allow it to take up it's normal running position. Then I'd slacken the belt until, on the longest run, it could be slightly depressed with a thumb or finger. So now it's slightly too slack. Then with my right hand - I'm right handed - I'd make a "U" shape with my thumb and forefinger and get the belt between the two - so, usually thumb inside on the toothed side and forefinger on the outside or smooth side. Now, keeping the fingers stiff, move your hand back and forward quite quickly - so "feeling" the slack in the belt. Now, continuing to move your hand and feeling the slack with your fingers, start to tighten the tensioning bearing. As you tighten it the slack on the belt will decrease until it's all used up. When the free play is used up that's when the tensioner locking nut is tightened. So, if you've done it right, the belt will now have no detectable free play but also neither will it be as tight as a bow string. You've adjusted it until the free play is removed.

Now the interesting bit. You've been doing this adjustment with the engine cold and, as you've turned the engine over for a number of revolutions with the belt fully tightened before you started to do fine adjustment (helps to have the plugs out when doing that) the belt will be exactly aligned with the normal running position it's going to take up in service and now you've adjusted it until it's not "tight" but also not in any way "slack". You'll find now that when the engine is run up to full operating temperature the belt feels a little tighter? This is because the engine block and cylinder head is now good and hot. Heat causes expansion and this expansion of head and block actually causes the centre distance between the camshaft and crankshaft to very slightly increase which ensures the belt is slightly more tightly tensioned when the engine is fully up to running temperature. I've found this allows for any slight settling of the belt in initial service, bearing in mind that belts don't really "stretch" but the toothed side does flatten and compact slightly as it settles down. In fact this effect is why, if you follow the official Fiat fitting procedure with the automatic tensioner, which involves an initial over tightening of the belt and rotating the engine for several revolutions before finally setting the tension, they then recommend that a "run" belt, or any belt, even a new one, once fitted and fully tightened, should not then be reused.

My days on the tools, when I was earning my daily bread repairing and maintaining customer vehicles was when stuff like the Sierra/Cortina/Transit with the Pinto engine, Morris Marina/Princess/etc with the "O" series engine. Sometimes a Fiat 128 or similar, you get the idea, and all of these had manually tensioned belts and I would do them as I've described above - did my own cars the same way - Never had a problem, indeed the earlier Pandas we've had in the family were all done that way too. I much prefer the spring loaded tensioner though and was very pleased to find Becky, our 2010 1,2 Panda has one of these.

As to belt noise. There's been quite a number of posts recently from people with belt noise after changing the belt, indeed Becky has always had a bit of a belt "zizz" she had it before I changed her belt and still has it with the new belt fitted (5 years ago - and the belt's been fine) An over tightened belt makes a quite distinctive noise which, once heard, you won't confuse with anything else but I find it difficult to describe it here in words.

I see you're in the Nottingham area, If the noise is a worry for you, I'm wondering if there's an experience forum member near you who could maybe pop over and have a listen? I'll also add the "disclaimer" that my way of doing these belt and the "feel" I have for doing them has been developed over many years and is highly "tuned" to the feel in my hands and the experience of doing, probably, hundreds of them. Because it's so subjective there's no way I could guarantee that you'll achieve the same result. So, if you decide to try "my" way of doing this and you get it wrong the results could be catastrophically expensive although, to the best of my Knowledge, the 1.1 litres were all non interference so it should be impossible for the valves and pistons to get "friendly". Stick to the recommended procedure to stay safe but i've detailed my way of doing it because I thought it might be of interest not only to you but to other experienced forum members

Thank you for your in-depth and comprehend reply.. that’s very much appreciated. I will be having another look at the timing belt tension soon and will let you know how I get on

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Thank you for your in-depth and comprehend reply.. that’s very much appreciated. I will be having another look at the timing belt tension soon and will let you know how I get on

Good luck, I'll be watching to see how you got on. The newer spring loaded type are, in my opinion, a great improvement. Not only do they take the uncertainty out of the tensioning process but, because they are spring loaded, they maintain a constant tension on the belt in service.

Interestingly - Well, I think it's interesting anyway - it's made the "not round" cam pulleys used on the VAG EA211 engines - and maybe others too that I don't know about - an achievable development. These pulleys are actually elipsoid in form. The idea, if I've understood it correctly, being that it reduces the forces on the belt as the follower transitions from being on the back side of the cam onto the lifting slope - where obviously more effort is being transmitted to get the valve on the move. Who'd have thought it? a cam sprocket that's not round?

Edit. It's just occurred to me. being not round means the tensioner must be continually on the move compensating for the variation in belt run due to the "out of round" cam pulleys? Wonder if that affects the life of the tensioners? I've not heard of any problems with them and the EA211 engine family seems to be gaining quite a good reputation for reliability, although I think there were some piston ring problems on the very early ones?

 

[varesecrazy]

My experience, having owned a 1108cc 169 panda for 14 years,

I used a pair of CIRCLIP Pliers inserted in the tensioning holes,
I found that was fine,

Did ok, several times after HeadGasket SWAPS.. ,
owned 3 x 1108's at one
169 panda, 176 punto and a Cinq Sporting, did HG's on them all

Using the same pliers to tension the BELTS

The one time I DID have tension trouble:

A Specialist did the 60k service, so waterpump and belt kit,
54 weeks later, the car was started on the drive to withdraw my X1/9,
Waked back to the Panda, it wouldn't restart..

After LOTS of messing it got recovered,

The belt had slipped 7 teeth, apparently the new waterpump bearing had failed, letting the belt run slack

Whole new pump and kit fitted ( by the same garage) , it lasted the next 8 years fine, car is still MOT'd now
(25 years young in March )

 

[koalar]

Tightening by frequency is easy and accurate

And is the proper method

The link I posted in post 49 gives the correct frequency

Instead of buying the special tool, there's plenty of free guitar tuning apps for both the android and iPhone phones that measure frequency, that's identical in functionality to the fiat tool

 

[varesecrazy]

Tightening by frequency is easy and accurate

And is the proper method

The link I posted in post 49 gives the correct frequency

Instead of buying the special tool, there's plenty of free guitar tuning apps for both the android and iPhone phones that measure frequency, that's identical in functionality to the fiat tool

I've just started to read your notes on this

Pretty interesting, but not something I had access to around 2008

 

[koalar]

I've just started to read your notes on this

Pretty interesting, but not something I had access to around 2008

Yep back then far less information and access to equipment , and probably only garages had access to the correct frequencies or the magic box

Slightly off topic

Forums like this are continually adding to the knowledge base, each time a problem is encounter and fixed the knowledge base increases, almost as important is if a solution does not work, to update the thread, that way others don't go down the same incorrect path, it's a shame so many threads go dead without any updates fixed or not

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

My experience, having owned a 1108cc 169 panda for 14 years,

I used a pair of CIRCLIP Pliers inserted in the tensioning holes,
I found that was fine,

Did ok, several times after HeadGasket SWAPS.. ,
owned 3 x 1108's at one
169 panda, 176 punto and a Cinq Sporting, did HG's on them all

Using the same pliers to tension the BELTS

You're probably just as well to use right angle circlip pliers as the tool which comes with the "knock off" locking tool kits is reported to be rather fragile - although I have to say my Neilsen branded kit has lasted well and the tensioning tool still has both it's prongs.

The one time I DID have tension trouble:

A Specialist did the 60k service, so waterpump and belt kit,
54 weeks later, the car was started on the drive to withdraw my X1/9,
Waked back to the Panda, it wouldn't restart..

After LOTS of messing it got recovered,

The belt had slipped 7 teeth, apparently the new waterpump bearing had failed, letting the belt run slack

Whole new pump and kit fitted ( by the same garage) , it lasted the next 8 years fine, car is still MOT'd now
(25 years young in March )

I think a lot of belts were tightened wrongly back in those days. It was quite a regular event to hear one next to, in front of or behind you at the traffic lights running noisily due to over tightening. The ones that hadn't been tightened enough you wouldn't be aware of - until the teeth sheared that is!

Of course over tightening puts excessive strain on bearings causing early failure. Used to be you only had to "worry" about alternator front bearings if you overtightened the fan belt "back in the day", Cam belts introduced a whole new range of failure possibilities.

Tightening by frequency is easy and accurate

And is the proper method

The link I posted in post 49 gives the correct frequency

Instead of buying the special tool, there's plenty of free guitar tuning apps for both the android and iPhone phones that measure frequency, that's identical in functionality to the fiat tool

Another good reason for me to buy that "smart" phone this year!

 

[boguing]

I bought 'the tool' on eBay. It's about 50mm long, and pure chinesium. Made for half scale Pandas.

I used circlip pliers and a 'phone app. Worked a treat. I also tried a tone generator app too, and when you've got it playing the tone it's absolutely obvious when you're in tune!

 

[Pauldmann]

This is fascinating.. I’ve never heard of getting correct belt tension by using frequency / tone. I will definitely look into this method! I’ve used the 90 degree twist method, then revisited the tension with a Nielsen tensioner. I had to ask ChatGPT how to use the tensioner as there weren’t any instructions with it, just a chart of values and nothing make/model related of course.
I have found reading through everyone’s contributions on here a great help and resource. Knowing there are others out there with such a lot of experience is very reassuring!

 

[Pauldmann]

Does anyone have details of the correct frequency/hz for the timing belt check? I’m not sure if there’s variation in timing belts across different engine sizes or variants of the same engine. Mine is the first gen 1.1 8v in the 2004 1.1 Active, with the square oil filler cap). I have also recently acquired a 2008 Panda with the same engine size, but round oil filler cap. This newer car seems like a lovely example with only 56,000 miles. All MOT’s verify the mileage with come years being 2/3,000 miles. I can only assume there’s been a succession of older owners in its lifetime.