Seicento Monster Cento/ECU Master Thread

[centoproject]

yep I'm planing to run 2 of these det 3s for each batch of the injectors efectivly one running injection under boost from one of them for on boost and at the same time keeping the standard CDI ignition what do you think ? Unless one injector batch will do the job and how long until Turbo

 

[Honeymonster]

yep I'm planing to run 2 of these det 3s for each batch of the injectors efectivly one running injection under boost from one of them for on boost and at the same time keeping the standard CDI ignition what do you think ? Unless one injector batch will do the job and how long until Turbo

I'd suggest you go for an Stand Alone with staged injection mate. What your suggesting although in theory should work, would be insanely difficult to set up and most likely never work well. Most standalone systems have staged injection, that Canems thing Fingers has seems good value and has staged. Then of course there is the EMU, DTA, Megasquirt etc.

How long till the turbo? Well the weather is all of a sudden beautiful and too hot to do any work. If that changes for the weekend then I will carry on, if not it may well be the following weekend.

 

[centoproject]

i've looked into the emu but no supplier in the uk ? and good stuff

 

[Honeymonster]

Top End Power have the EMU and ship worldwide (this is where my Det came from):

http://www.topendpower.pl/p/en/ecu-m-emu/emu+-+engine+management+unit+-+stand+alone.html

However it doesn't mention staged on the spec just extra injector outputs as an auxiliary.

http://www.ecumaster.com/download/EMU/emuFeatures_preliminary.pdf

There's also no English manual for it yet so I'd suggest something closer to home unless you want to learn a second language in the mean time.

It does however mention individual cylinder ignition and fuel trim. :slayer:

If I have enough energy for another project after this one I may well purchase one.

 

[centoproject]

thank you and that's a good point if it comes with english manual i may just go with this emu it seems ok copy and paste into google translate although i was looking at microsquirt v3 but i just can't get my head around the ignition side of things in logic level (0 to 5v) ?

would this next project be another small fiat ?

 

[Honeymonster]

I'm sure it will be easier to get your head round an English installation manual than a Polish one mate LOL. However I'd at least email ECU master and confirm it will do staged injection before committing to a purchase since you already have the throttle bodies.

As for another project, well I'll be keeping my little Fiat and will continue to do minor tweeks on it so it will probably be something completely different and longer term.

Always fancied doing a 131 Abarth replica, but who knows could be anything, lets get this one finished first.

Edit: logic level 0-5v basically means 0 is off and 5 is on.

Analogue would be a variable 0-5v signal, if you get stuck just send me what your reading and I'll try and explain it.

 

[Honeymonster]

I will add the settings I'm using along with the file in the near future, however this little tool should prove quite useful for creating a base VE table:

It's actually got less sites and is inverted compared to the DET table but just by taking a reference from a few key points then using the table interpolation it gives you something useful to work from.

http://www.megamanual.com/v22manual/vetable.htm

I created the table below after inputting the settings for a standard 75 motor.



Please note I’m running a 3 bar map sensor which is not ideal for running a N/A engine (5v divided by 300 instead of 100 points) but it's working surprisingly well. I’m also running a low compression so my final base map will probably vary wildly to your own. The whole idea of this exercise is to make your car mobile enough to get it to a rolling road. If you are trying to do this to a turbo charged car keep everything very rich on boost, 11AFR should be safe enough until you can get it professionally tuned.

If your car won't start (like mine wouldn't) with your initial table it's easy just to select the whole table and increase or decrease it with the plus and minus keys (so it keeps its shape) until the engine starts. Once started leave the engine untouched running until it exits warm up enrichment and everything is up to temperature before you start. The bottom of the graph should indicate the timing signal is synchronised. If the engine for any reason stalls at any point make sure it finishes its enrichment mode again before you continue tuning. From this point if you have a wideband just adjust the whole table in the same method until you get a sensible idle mixture on your wideband. If you don't have a wideband keep adjusting the mixture rich and find the point where the revs drop then back it off slightly until they increase again (this should give you a safe setting somewhere near RBT). At this point you may need to increase your idle with the throttle body screw.

We have one huge advantage over an empty stand alone here, we already have a base timing map from the standard ECU (in my case a 1.1) and although not optimal it should be enough to get pretty much any FIRE engine running half decent if not a little conservatively. My advice would be to leave the timing alone and concentrate on the fuelling initially. Timing is far easier to adjust on a load bearing rolling road.

If the car revs cleanly and you haven't got a wide band your best bet is probably to hold your revs every 500-1000 rpm (no load) and use the same method as before going rich until the revs drop etc. only this time adjust the whole horizontal row with your cross hair on so all the numbers increase accordingly and you don‘t lose your VE shape.

After this go for a gentle run on an area of private road with ideally mixed conditions, if the car bogs it's probably leaning out under load, you'll need a passenger to increase fuelling in the area the cross hair is on during the issue to overcome the problem. Work your way through different load settings (I.e. hills at low speeds in higher gears etc. for high loads) until the car becomes drivable in a rich state of tune. If you find increasing enrichment makes things worse you obviously need to lean things off a bit. Once you’re happy the car is fairly drivable, you may have to play with the fuel cut settings. If it likes to stall when you come off the throttle or pops and bangs on the overrun adjust the fuel cut to resolve the issue. You may also benefit by adjusting the acceleration/throttle enrichments but unless you’re confident in doing this I’d leave it for the rolling road if the car is in a fairly drivable state.

If you have a wideband life is easier, I just set everything above tick over to 13AFR (N/A) initially so I could get the car drivable for a quick road tune and have it mobile before I fit the turbo.

Finally there is some temperature and cranking enrichment settings which you should read about and understand. These will make your car start easily and run more efficiently in all weather conditions. Once you understand these settings with most of them it just takes time and trial and error to get them right.

There are also some nice over boost settings and the fantastic closed loop boost control system to play with.

This is just the way I’ve done it and its worked for me. I am by know means a pro tuner of any description. If you’re not comfortable doing this and are worried about damaging your vehicle get your car towed to the rolling road. If doing this with a turbo charged car you will need to be far more cautious.

If you want to continue tuning the car yourself after this point instead of heading to the rolling road I would suggest thoroughly reading some good tuning books and the DET FIT manual so you fully understand the principals involved.. The DET 3 of course also has its own rolling road software which is explained in the standard DET 3 manual.

Good Luck!!

 

[Honeymonster]

Punto 75 Weber injectors only:


3 Bar Cosworth Map Senor only:


1 Bar Map Senor you'll need to work out your settings from here:

http://www.webcon.co.uk/Downloads/PRT.pdf

Cheers.

 

[Honeymonster]

Why do they hardly make any sexy wheels in 14".

No Ronal Turbo's and no TH Super Monos.

Damn you nice wheel manufacturers!! :shakehead:

 

[blu73]

just get some 15's dude, they'll fit! had 15s on my old cinq and sei arches are bigger i reckon. Aaron (J333EVO) ran 15's on his 1.4 16v seicento too. And with turbo power it won't be slow like my old cinq was on 15s.. And there really should be a turbo sei on ronal turbo wheels, it just makes sense!!

 

[Honeymonster]

I don't know if they will fit for sure Blu, my current wheels are a knats cock away from the arch liners on full lock already. It sure would be nice if they did though, I guess I'd need some rubber band tyres any links to Aaron's?

The only external mods I've considered doing are the Ronals, the lights and to get rid of the unsightly blue stickers and trim inserts.

So as it stands:

The lights would more than likely be illegal and the wheels are probably too big. At least I can get rid of the blue trims I guess...

Maybe one day a respray, but to be honest it's probably not worth the effort. Guarantee the first time I park it up some one will mash a door into it. It's covered in car park door dings already and seems to collect more on weekly basis no matter where I park it.

 

[blu73]

tbf, iirc they had 15x6j compos on 35mm springs and had clearance issues with them on the rear, and it went back onto 14s, uber rare abarth option ones. But they did run or do run 15x5.5j wheels from a thema or dedra or some random fiat/lancia with no problems. They still not agreed to sell me that car but it will be mine

 

[blu73]

links to said cars
http://fiatforum.com/cinquecento-seicento/91558-seicento-1-4-16v-project.html

http://fiatforum.com/cinquecento-seicento/166019-cinq-abarth-project-1-4-16v.html

 

[Honeymonster]

Thanks Blu, Smallest Ronal T's are 15x7 so not a hope in hell.
woj (resident SPI ECU Guru)

Just reading through the Seicento ECU manual again looking for some info and it sais during its self test it checks for the injector. I haven't plugged in the Fiat diagnostics to see if it knows it's missing but it sure as hell doesn't seem to be in limp mode I've been driving it round most of the day tweaking the map.

Hmm might hook up a resistor and see if it makes any noticable diifference tomorrow, can't see it though goes nicely for a low comp engine. Any ignition 12v switched source will do so I won't have to tinker with my tidy injector wiring to try it.

Turbo is pencilled in for next weekend weather is too nice to spend sweating in the garage.

 

[woj]

It checks and logs a fault. Limp mode I do not remember. But, my experience tells me that the the checking routine itself is rather weak. Once disconnected injectors showed as shorted to vbatt, which is contrary to my intuition and understanding of things. Also clearly faulty injector wiring I once had was giving me ecu faults only occasionally, while giving permanent actual running faults. What is even weaker is the the CPS fault checking, hardly ever useful for anything.

 

[Honeymonster]

Ah OK thanks I'll try it and see. I'm of the understanding the limp mode will effect fuelling and timing. Well obviously it can't effect my fuelling because it doesn't have control of it so worst case scenario it could pull the timing a bit. I could of course intentionally run it in limp mode and correct the timing/map around this, but I'd rather not do that and save myself a bit of tuning work.

 

[woj]

Most imporantly limp mode = ignition cut at 4500 rpm or so, and this is something DET will not be able to circumvent.

 

[Honeymonster]

Aha excellent I have the RPM limit set to 6500 and it cuts and just over 6400 so the missing injector clearly doesn't put it in limp mode. No resistors needed.

 

[Honeymonster]

Wired the Wideband in to the table input and tried some datalogging on the way to work. Most awesome tool you can even display AFR over your tables. :slayer:

Smell of fuel coming from somewhere when stationary is slightly worrying...
Might be ricness defo couldn't see any leaks will stick it on a ramp and have another look later.

 

[TWINFOX]

My beast of a fuel pump was completely overwelming the standard regulator but I couldn't fit my after market one as the Fiat clip was too short to hold it properly.

What kind of fuel regulator did you use? I can't find the answer in your thread
or maybe my english is too bad...

Thanks
TWINFOX