Seicento Monster Cento/ECU Master Thread

[blu73]

i dunno who had the spares, i think Martin & Aaron bought more than one to get the numbers up but i still not in a position to be buying one anyway.

 

[Honeymonster]

Mine came from Smiler121's car through Gazzaman when he was breaking it. Can't complain for what I paid that's for sure. It's absolutely immaculate, not suprising really it was fitted to a fairly standard 1.1 from what I gather. Also it had a brand new ring gear.

I'd rather have a locker to be honest but an ATB should do the trick for road use.

No vlogs I'm afraid PP I'd rather get some work done and I'm not much of a commentator.

Like I said from the start I will try and make sure I cover the ECU bits in detail as there are no other DET guides. However everything else here has been covered before and can generally be found with a quick search. No point going over it again when I can be getting stuck in with the project else where.

 

[woj]

However everything else here has been covered before and can generally be found with a quick search. No point going over it again when I can be getting stuck in with the project else where.

Well mate, every single turbo setup is different, that's why we do them, they are fun each single new time . You are in general right, but once in the process you will certainly come over something that you will have a new/different idea for. And, remember please , pictures are always good even if you do not have much to say about them.

Owesome work on the DET. However, I was meaning to bring this up before, it always bothered me. Why all this FCD bussiness? Did any of us actually tried to see what our MAPs are doing on boost? (I know what the ECU is doing, just not sure what voltage values are reported by the 1bar MAP sensor on boost). Why not a mechanical solution with a one-way air valve on the vaccum hose? I am asking all this, because I never had to deal with the the problem and just being curious.

 

[Honeymonster]

Well mate, every single turbo setup is different, that's why we do them, they are fun each single new time . You are in general right, but once in the process you will certainly come over something that you will have a new/different idea for. And, remember please , pictures are always good even if you do not have much to say about them.

You'll get plenty of pictures no worries just didn't feel the need to cover fitting a diff. It's an hours work at most.

Awesome work on the DET. However, I was meaning to bring this up before, it always bothered me. Why all this FCD business? Did any of us actually tried to see what our MAPs are doing on boost? (I know what the ECU is doing, just not sure what voltage values are reported by the 1bar MAP sensor on boost). Why not a mechanical solution with a one-way air valve on the vacuum hose? I am asking all this, because I never had to deal with the the problem and just being curious.

Fuel cut would be the wrong word to use in this case for sure since we have full control over fueling. Really it's just to stop the ECU from going into limp and effecting the timing drastically. I could just disconnect the Map pipe and dial in the timing from scratch with the DET but I wanted to use the original tables to give me a good start and save me some time on the RR. I think the original ECU may well think the engine has stopped or there is a sensor fault if it sees positive pressure on the Map sensor.

The mechanical solution is OK as long as you use a bleed. If you don't use a bleed you can get a vacuum trapped in the sensor. If the bleed is too great it will effect the readings, and also you are technically creating a manifold leak by doing this.

The DET 3 has an option for clamping the signal voltage, as did my TF10 however If I use it for this purpose I will lose my tables switch. I will also be using this input to add my wideband to the logging screen for my tuning.

Cheers

 

[woj]

Well, the scientist in me couldn't let it rest, so I made a small test bench and dig out my old 1 bar MAP sensor, I really wanted to see what it does with voltage on boost. On barometric it showed steady 4.76V, spot on. On pumping it immediately goes to 5.22V, which is the supply voltage. So yes indeed, in this case the ECU would go mad. I just had to check for myself

Also, on this occasion I checked the documentation for the MAP. It specifies that it will stand 200% overboost (this sensor as well as the 2.5bar one). This tells me that in your case you are safe with regard to destroying it upto 1 bar of boost, doesn't it?

 

[Honeymonster]

Cool little experiment, nice work.

I get these specs for the 1 bar Magnetti MAP sensor:

Technical Characteristics
Power supply (± 0.5 V)............................................ 5 V
Null offset (5 V) .................................................. 0.25 V
Full scale output (5 V) ........................................ 4.75 V
Output impedance..................................less than 10 Ω
Pressure ranges
PRT 02 .........................................................200 kPa
PRT 03 .........................................................105 kPa
PRT 06 .........................................................250 kPa
Operating temperature range....................-40 to 125 °C
Response time.........................................less than 7 ms
Accuracy (including non-linearity, hysteresis
and repeatability) .............................................. 1 % f.s.o
Overpressure ......................................................200 %
Weight...................................................................30 g

So like you say 200%, However it could mean you can 200% over its rated pressure?, also I'm unsure if atmospheric pressure is included or not so don't know exactly what this really means. I won't be looking at going over 1.2bar for any extended periods anyway so I'm sure it will survive, I'll just keep an eye on it.

I also had a quick look and there are plenty of other 1 Bar sensors rated to survive 4 bar. These also run with the 0-5v analogue output so worst case I could fit one of these.

 

[woj]

So what boost levels are you actaully aiming for? Because it seems that safe standards are being raised all the time. I have recently seen a vid of a 2bar boosted Sei on a 8V engine

Surely you can replace the 1bar MAP with something "stronger", only make sure that the min/max offset voltages/values are at least similar to MM, otherwise the ECU's work would be a bit "slanted"

EDIT: actually, the vid is public and easy to find, for your entertainment :

 

[Honeymonster]

So what boost levels are you actaully aiming for? Because it seems that safe standards are being raised all the time. I have recently seen a vid of a 2bar boosted Sei on a 8V engine

Map A: Day to day driving hopefully useable in light rain.

Map B: Tune it until it makes funny noises and things start to fall off.

 

[blu73]

So what boost levels are you actaully aiming for? Because it seems that safe standards are being raised all the time. I have recently seen a vid of a 2bar boosted Sei on a 8V engine

Surely you can replace the 1bar MAP with something "stronger", only make sure that the min/max offset voltages/values are at least similar to MM, otherwise the ECU's work would be a bit "slanted"

EDIT: actually, the vid is public and easy to find, for your entertainment :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lasJVBsxtcI

That vid reminds me of my old cinq.. that ran 1.5bar daily but overboosted off the gauge when a pipe popped off the dawes bleed valve and crikey it was rapid when that happened. hehe

 

[Honeymonster]

I haven't even fitted and run the thing in yet and we're talking about 2 bar.

Is there any threads and on this silver Cinq you used to own Blu? Sounds like it was a little beast.

 

[blu73]

not sure how much there is about it on here really. But was much like my current one except it was originally low boost Van Aaken conversion that had been turned into high boost. Had a decomp plate instead of machined pistons like a VA high boost, and it ran a Punto GT intercooler as VA low boosts didn't even have and intercooler.

Its 2 previous owners before me were on here, firewarrior owned it and sold it to jamie86 who i bought it off (he also sold me the seiT i have now). I'll have a look but here is a few pictures of it

Aye it was a bit of a convoluted mess uder the bonnet but was a solid engine, car was broken up and all the bits sold off, one of the biggest mistakes i ever made. Loved that car!

edit: http://fiatforum.com/cinquecento-seicento/50187-pics-nice-please-lol.html seems to be the only thread Firewarrior posted bar a few random little questions
Jamie86 has a few threads on it i think, you'll prob find a young me in there asking silly questions and making stupid suggestions, i didn't really know alot about how it all worked when i bought that first turbo cento.

 

[woj]

I haven't even fitted and run the thing in yet and we're talking about 2 bar.

No, no I am not saying you should go 2bar, I was just curious of what you had in mind. You will be limited by other factors, feul pressure and injector size for starters.

This 2 bar thing I suspect is not running on stock internals. Also, the CR is as reported by the owner 8:1. He did not say anything about the internals, actually, I don't think anybody asked.

BTW, that setup also runs on DET3

 

[Honeymonster]

That was a cool looking little cinq Blu, I can't believe you pulled him apart.

What are the wheels off a Lancia?

No, no I am not saying you should go 2bar, I was just curious of what you had in mind. You will be limited by other factors, feul pressure and injector size for starters.

This 2 bar thing I suspect is not running on stock internals. Also, the CR is as reported by the owner 8:1. He did not say anything about the internals, actually, I don't think anybody asked.

BTW, that setup also runs on DET3

Ah, Walbro 255 (255lph) here and injectors off a 160bhp MG VVT so no problems with fuel for me. My compression has also been corrected by skimming the block and head after the the 16v Pistons were fitted. However like you say I'm sure that 2bar car has at least forged pistons and better manifold designs. Still something to aim for, only problem is unless I take it away the only place I could actually go that fast would be the rolling road.

Another monster running Det 3, must be a good omen

 

[blu73]

They are 14" off a Lancia Delta HF Turbo, They have been painted to look like the 15" ones but they are off a Delta integrale 8V if 6J or 16V if 6.5J wide, the 14" ones are normally flat silver.
I kept onto them wheels for ages as they are awesome but recently sold them to a lad on here called Andy who bought a black cinq off me earlier in the year.

 

[Honeymonster]

:yum: Tasty rims would look nice with a polished lip. Should have sold them to me.

 

[blu73]

i'll get them back one day, sold them on the understanding that if they ever come off the car or he sells the car he has to sell them back to me, isn't that right JustAndy

 

[Honeymonster]

woj

Actually now you mention fuel injector I notice you run 4x 250ccm so if we run that through this calculator at the bottom of the page here,

http://www.rceng.com/technical.aspx

and presume you won't exceed 80% duty cycle we get around a maximum of 125bhp

Mine are actually less than yours at 227ccm so in theory at 3bar I should get stuck at 115bhp unless I up the pressure (easily done) or exceed an 80% duty cycle.

The thing is my real life experience of injectors is very different to the results on these calculators.

When I ran SPI/SPI through two standard injectors fuel was never an issue even at a refferenced 1bar of fuel pressure. If I put them through one of these calculators it would say I'd achieved the impossible...

It will be interesting to see if I run out of fuel on the RR and have to fit some bigger injectors due to this limitation, however I have to admit I will be suprised if I do.

Did you find you were were in the very top half of your duty cycle at MBT or did you still have plenty of fuel to play with?

 

[woj]

Well, I also take the injector calculators with reserve. In my case the situation is actually more clear. The ECU keeps the duty cycle within some range, which I cannot express in %, but I know the exact calculations it does in terms of cutting injection time vs. rpm speed. From these calculations I also know precisely (down to 1rpm), when will the ECU start cutting my injection time under a given load. In my case with my maps, at 0.8bar it still goes with full map-requested injection time almost to red-line (for me actually till redline, which I have at 6600, not 6700 as the quoted calculations). At 0.9 it starts to cut considerably before red line. At 1 bar boost this starts to happen uncomfortably low, that is well below 6k rpm. This is the printout from calculations:

Fuel cut for 1800hPa starts at rpm 6616
Max fuel at rpm cut (6700): 98%
Fuel cut for 1900hPa starts at rpm 6139
Max fuel at rpm cut (6700): 91%
Fuel cut for 2000hPa starts at rpm 5807
Max fuel at rpm cut (6700): 86%

 

[Honeymonster]

So the ECU is actually maintaining whatever duty cycle was predifined by the manufacturer regardless of your MAP settings, what a pain!

So for example if Fiat had programmed it to maintain a 70% duty cycle it would rather cut fuel than exceed 70%. I guess in real world situations this would never happen on a non tuned car so it's kind of understandable.

I will obviously be able to exceed the 80% duty cycle (which I actually don't mind doing for short periods) but it is clearly displayed on the map screen so I will be well aware if I am doing this.

Only thing is we don't actually know what duty cycle yours is maintaining.

So in reality you could fit bigger injectors and overcome it, however if you could get into the part of the program that defines the the duty cycle maybe you could alter it? But if you did maybe this would effect its calculations throughout the range.

Lot of cleverness going on in even the most basic of these factory ECU's.

Ahhhhhhhh my head hurts just thinking about it.

 

[woj]

So the ECU is actually maintaining whatever duty cycle was predifined by the manufacturer regardless of your MAP settings, what a pain!

Actually, from how I understand the code, it is even worse/uglier. The only thing that ECU maintains is the fuel injector timing to fit into one revolution of the engine. This is when/why it cuts. Only so that there is no overlap between revolutions and ECU injector firing routines can work safely without overflowing any calculations. The duty cycle is maintained purely by factory fitting properly sized injectors and mapping the tables right, so that overall this fuel cutting never happens and some duty cycle is maintained. Do you see what I am trying to say?

And, what I do in reality, is pushing my injectors towards 100% DC when I push at full boost up the revs. Not too often though