Technical Do I need to get my ECU reprogrammed/repaired?

[StevenRB45]

Don't I want it to relearn the adaptive settings to suit the new engine?

The only thing the engine "learns" is trims.

Effectively you have a base map in all ECUs set by the factory. Over time the car uses long and short term trims to compensate for small issues it may detect while running.

It has a small amount of fueling and timing adjustment it can use to compensate for atmospheric conditions or deterioration of spark plugs, differences between fuel (eg e10 Vs E5) and it will.

Personally I'm not sure you can slot in an engine without taking the ECU that was designed for it. Yes the engines are similar but they are not the same the perimeters it's looking for may have different normal ranges and different types of adjustment. For example if you've put a vvt engine in with a none vvt ECU it's deeply unlikely the ECU would know how to adjust the valve timing or even detect that it can.

 

[DaveMcT]

If you want ultimate ECU to engine compatibility, you would need a rolling road remap. I very much doubt you would see a significant difference between a 1.2 with its original map and a 1.2 with a different 1.2 ECU map.

I feel that swapping a non VVT (60) for a VVT (65/9) engine absolutely will need the ECU to go with the engine. The VVT has features that don't exist on the more basic engine. At the other end of the scale, people have put the 1.2 in place of a 1.1 and had it running fine.

I think the OP needs to connect a computer running MES to the OBD port and see what's going on. When my engine (1.4) refused to start I could not get MES to connect. Frustrated, I checked my computer but actually MES was fine, the trouble was no power at the OBD port, caused by no power to the body computer. I believe it was a faulty relay but never did find the definitive cause.

 

[WildFeraligatr]

Right pals - we have an update!

So - I've reattached the old cam sensor and cranked the engine both with and without the sensor plugged in, and although the car still doesn't start I'm no longer getting the P0335 fault code (woohoo!!!)

Instead, I'm now consistently getting the U1600 fault code, however there's no immobiliser light on my dash when key is at MAR position (see attached)

When cranking the engine the oil light goes off, but switches back on once they key is in MAR position again.

 

[koalar]

The only thing the engine "learns" is trims.

What about phonic

Effectively you have a base map in all ECUs set by the factory. Over time the car uses long and short term trims to compensate for small issues it may detect while running.

It has a small amount of fueling and timing adjustment it can use to compensate for atmospheric conditions or deterioration of spark plugs, differences between fuel (eg e10 Vs E5) and it will.

Personally I'm not sure you can slot in an engine without taking the ECU that was designed for it. Yes the engines are similar but they are not the same the perimeters it's looking for may have different normal ranges and different types of adjustment. For example if you've put a vvt engine in with a none vvt ECU it's deeply unlikely the ECU would know how to adjust the valve timing or even detect that it can.

I have no idea

 

[koalar]

Right pals - we have an update!

So - I've reattached the old cam sensor and cranked the engine both with and without the sensor plugged in, and although the car still doesn't start I'm no longer getting the P0335 fault code (woohoo!!!)

Instead, I'm now consistently getting the U1600 fault code, however there's no immobiliser light on my dash when key is at MAR position (see attached)

When cranking the engine the oil light goes off, but switches back on once they key is in MAR position again.

Great that’s progress

Just have to work out the next step

If you plug in your scanner can you see the revs of the engine cranking

U1600 is a CANBUS error usually associated around the key transponder key code system

Try locking and unlocking the car with the remote

 

[WildFeraligatr]

Great that’s progress

Just have to work out the next step

If you plug in your scanner can you see the revs of the engine cranking

U1600 is a CANBUS error usually associated around the key transponder key code system

Try locking and unlocking the car with the remote

I don't have a remote - just 2 'plain' keys as attached

(Ignore the Skoda tag - that's off my other car!)

Edit: I've tried the engine with both keys and neither seem to be working.

 

[koalar]

I don't have a remote - just 2 'plain' keys as attached

(Ignore the Skoda tag - that's off my other car!)

Great

Keep the keys separate and try each

I may have to look up the U1600 as some codes are model dependant

 

[WildFeraligatr]

Great

Keep the keys separate and try each

I may have to look up the U1600 as some codes are model dependant

Sorry - edited my last comment - I have tried both keys and neither work.

The immo light comes on when I've disconnected and reconnected the battery, but the 2nd time trying to start the light doesn't come on.

 

[varesecrazy]

Still no Spark?

 

[WildFeraligatr]

Still no Spark?

Not checked yet if I'm being totally honest - bit cold and dark out now so will check tomorrow!

 

[koalar]

Sorry - edited my last comment - I have tried both keys and neither work.

The immo light comes on when I've disconnected and reconnected the battery, but the 2nd time trying to start the light doesn't come on.

If you lock the car unlock and enter turn the ignition on the symbol should come on for a second or two and go off

I

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

What about phonic

I have no idea

As I understand it Phonic requires a "base line" to be set, so it needs to know that the relationship it's seeing right now between the crank and cam sensor is the base setting - relationship between the crankshaft and camshaft sensor signals. That's what is happening during a "Phonic wheel relearn" which you normally would do when a new belt is fitted. I believe you need something like MES to accomplish this. Once it has that base setting on board it carries out small adjustments to that base setting as the relative position of camshaft to crankshaft alters due to belt and other wear which slightly alters this relationship between the cam and crankshaft as everything ages. So, although it needs a starting point, it then "learns" the new relationship between the two sensors as the system ages. I guess this means there's only provision for it to vary by a small amount. However, as one of the parameters this relates to is ignition timing ie. when it fires the plugs, it's quite important for maximum performance, economy and emissions. If things move outside the parameters it can deal with the likelyhood is that emissions will be outside acceptable limits so it lights up the Check engine light?

 

[WildFeraligatr]

If you lock the car unlock and enter turn the ignition on the symbol should come on for a second or two and go off

I

Yep, that's what happens the 2nd time I start after disconnecting the battery.

First time I start the immo light stays on.

 

[koalar]

Yep, that's what happens the 2nd time I start after disconnecting the battery.

First time I start the immo light stays on.

Mmmmm
I don’t often disconnect the the battery

Not sure if that’s not normal


As you crank the car can you see the rev counter move slightly

 

[WildFeraligatr]

Mmmmm
I don’t often disconnect the the battery

Not sure if that’s not normal


As you crank the car can you see the rev counter move slightly

On the dash or on the OBDII reader?

Will check tomorrow morning

 

[koalar]

As I understand it Phonic requires a "base line" to be set, so it needs to know that the relationship it's seeing right now between the crank and cam sensor is the base setting - relationship between the crankshaft and camshaft sensor signals. That's what is happening during a "Phonic wheel relearn" which you normally would do when a new belt is fitted. I believe you need something like MES to accomplish this. Once it has that base setting on board it carries out small adjustments to that base setting as the relative position of camshaft to crankshaft alters due to belt and other wear which slightly alters this relationship between the cam and crankshaft as everything ages. So, although it needs a starting point, it then "learns" the new relationship between the two sensors as the system ages. I guess this means there's only provision for it to vary by a small amount. However, as one of the parameters this relates to is ignition timing ie. when it fires the plugs, it's quite important for maximum performance, economy and emissions. If things move outside the parameters it can deal with the likelyhood is that emissions will be outside acceptable limits so it lights up the Check engine light?

Kind of

The cam rotation isn’t totally smooth. If it has a base line it can work out when a misfire happens and which cylinder

But yes it measuring the difference between the two

 

[koalar]

On the dash or on the OBDII reader?

Will check tomorrow morning

Either or both

The scanner will tell you if the ECU is reading the crank sensor

The dash will tell you if the ECU is reading the crank sensor and then passing it onto the body computer which is passing it on to the dash

So if the dash rev moves quite a bit of the electronics is working

 

[StevenRB45]

What about phonic

I have no idea

Sorry I meant in use.

All your ECU boils down to is a set of timing curves and fueling tables. The car then uses the means at it's disposal to attempt achieve target values at the lambda sensor via info from the maf and knock sensor if fitted.

At build all ECUs for a given engine will be the same and you can swap identically specced engines even if they are a different size as long as the inputs and targets are same.

But it depends on how much of the spec varies. If it's set up for a certain injector size..but that's been changed between euro 4 and 5 then it's not guaranteed it'll figure it out it might just command fuelling as per the original injectors and might be all over the place. Also if the cams are different it does beg the question is what's it's expecting as the normal value the same as it was?

It's an ECU in a cheap car, it'll be bare minimum stuff. Sometimes this works in your favour because they are too stupid to realise how much has changed or the manufacturer keeps specs the same so all cars can share bits and it just kinda works and other times it doesn't.

 

[koalar]

Sorry I meant in use.

All your ECU boils down to is a set of timing curves and fueling tables. The car then uses the means at it's disposal to attempt achieve target values at the lambda sensor via info from the maf and knock sensor if fitted.

At build all ECUs for a given engine will be the same and you can identically specced engines even if they are a different size as long as the inputs and targets are same.

But it depends on how much of the spec varies. If it's set up for a certain injector size..but that's been changed between euro 4 and 5 then it's not guaranteed it'll figure it out it might just command fuelling as per the original injectors and might be all over the place.

It's an ECU in a cheap car, it'll be bare minimum stuff. Sometimes this works in your favour because they are too stupid to realise how much has changed or the manufacturer keeps specs the same so all cars can share bits and it just kinda works and other times it doesn't.

Correct

I have no idea if a euro 3 ECU will run a euro 4 engine and I guess nobody else will unless it’s already been done

I did explain the problems with finding the correct engine here in October

2004 Panda Dynamic engine + gearbox removal | FIAT Panda (Mk3)

Hi all... thanks for having me. I've owned my 2004 Panda since about 2016/17 odd before 'selling' to my partner last year as I inherited a new car. Unfortunately he is a very new driver and ignored the engine temperature warning light, which led to a very stressful breakdown on the side of the...

www.fiatforum.com

In all fairness you would expect all engines with the same engine number to be the same, which they are not

It is what it is. Little steps let’s see if we can make some progress with what we’ve got who know it might pave the way for others

 

[StevenRB45]

Correct

I have no idea if a euro 3 ECU will run a euro 4 engine and I guess nobody else will unless it’s already been done

I did explain the problems with finding the correct engine here in October

2004 Panda Dynamic engine + gearbox removal | FIAT Panda (Mk3)

Hi all... thanks for having me. I've owned my 2004 Panda since about 2016/17 odd before 'selling' to my partner last year as I inherited a new car. Unfortunately he is a very new driver and ignored the engine temperature warning light, which led to a very stressful breakdown on the side of the...

www.fiatforum.com

In all fairness you would expect all engines with the same engine number to be the same, which they are not

It is what it is. Little steps let’s see if we can make some progress with what we’ve got who know it might pave the way for others

Indeed and if you don't try it you'll never know.

But it does seem a bit unlikely they managed to pass a new emissions standard without changing ECU spec.

But if that's not the case how you would then fix it..I assume the engine ECU from the donor is long gone..and there's the question of whether that could be clipped into the loom and work or anti theft would go mad you'd think proxy alignment minimum.

Good luck OP