Technical Do I need to get my ECU reprogrammed/repaired?

[WildFeraligatr]

Evening all

I've posted on here a couple of times about my partners Panda - long story short, I've had to replace the engine because he drove around with a blown head gasket and the old engine is buggered.

I'm at the point now where I'm trying to get the new engine running, and I'm at the stage where the engine will crank with the ignition but won't actually start. There's no spark to the engine - the ignition coils are good, as are the leads and spark plugs, and my OBD reader threw out a P0335 fault for an issue with the crankshaft sensor circuit. I've changed the crankshaft sensor itself, and tested the circuits going back to the ECU, and all are fine. The battery is fine too.

My question is - the ECU worked fine with the old engine but with my testing I can only imagine the issue is with the ECU. Does the ECU need to be reprogrammed or something to align with the new engine? If so, can I take the ECU to an auto shop and get them to 'wipe' it or something? Or is the ECU just buggered and I need to try and source a new one?

Thanks in advance.

 

[varesecrazy]

Are you using the Old engines sensors ..?

Or attempting to run it with the new engines ones?

There might be a difference..

No sparks..
Got fuel pressure??
Definitely not immobilised??

(Im confident its not an ECU swap necessity scenario )

 

[WildFeraligatr]

Are you using the Old engines sensors ..?

Or attempting to run it with the new engines ones?

There might be a difference..

No sparks..
Got fuel pressure??
Definitely not immobilised??

(Im confident its not an ECU swap necessity scenario )

Re: the crankshaft sensor- I tried it with the new engine's sensor first then swapped to the old one when that didn't work.

I've got fuel pressure as I can hear the fuel pump when I turn the car on, and I've been able to depressurise the system since.

I did get an immobiliser fault U1600 on one occasion but the only consistent fault has been the P0335. How would I know if the car is immobilised?

 

[varesecrazy]

Hi

The Immob puts a Yellow Padlock symbol on the Dash display

Check it illuminates when key turned to MAR
It should extinguish within 10 seconds
( as it reads and accepts the KeyChip)

Your error code is probably significant

In that scenario.. the ECU doesnt know the crank is rotating

So will not power the pulse to Coil packs




My old engine swaps were more primitive tech.. so I saw no such errors


Somebody will have seen this

 

[koalar]

Are you sure the engines are the same there several types fitted at least 4x 1.2s I know of

Original
Original with cam sensor
One about 2009 69HP not VVT
Latter VVT 69 HP

Post a picture of the two valve covers original and new




P0335
This error is detected if the variation in position of the crankshaft is not within the acceptable range of values or cannot be learnt (with signal not valid detail) or if the control module recognizes the camshaft impulses but not the crankshaft impulses (with general electrical fault detail). As a result, the engine is switched off.

 

[WildFeraligatr]

Are you sure the engines are the same there several types fitted at least 4x 1.2s I know of

Original
Original with cam sensor
One around 2009 69HP but not VVT 69HP
Latter VVT

Post a picture of the two valve covers original and new




P0335
This error is detected if the variation in position of the crankshaft is not within the acceptable range of values or cannot be learnt (with signal not valid detail) or if the control module recognizes the camshaft impulses but not the crankshaft impulses (with general electrical fault detail). As a result, the engine is switched off.

They don't seem to be the exact same - both have cam sensors however one has a square fill cap and the new one has a round fill cap (i believe this makes it a Euro-5 model). The car is a 2004 1.2 Dynamic and the new engine is off a 2006 Punto I believe. The new engine also came with a newer-type throttle without an accelerator cable whereas the old engine has the accelerator cable (which i have kept and just fitted to the new engine).

Unfortunately I didn't know exactly what I was looking for when I started and just chucked the engine code into eBay!

When you say valve covers, what are you referring to exactly?

 

[koalar]

There quite different engines

Different compression ratios for example

Throttle bodies doesn’t come into it

I don’t know enough to know if the cams pulley and sensors are the same

 

[WildFeraligatr]

There quite different engines

Different compression ratios for example

Throttle bodies doesn’t come into it

I don’t know enough to know if the cams pulley and sensors are the same

Ok, so it could be a case that the ECU needs to 'learn' the new crank/camshaft values then? How can this be achieved?

If it helps inform anything the timing belt on the new engine was slightly slimmer than on the old engine - learned this the hard way when ordering bits.

 

[koalar]

Ok, so it could be a case that the ECU needs to 'learn' the new crank/camshaft values then? How can this be achieved?

If it helps inform anything the timing belt on the new engine was slightly slimmer than on the old engine - learned this the hard way when ordering bits.

the simple answer I don’t know

Not sure if anyone has tried a later Punto into an earlier panda

Are the pulleys the same

Are the cam and crank in the same locations

Is the cams the same

Are the ECU the same

And so on, so many things I don’t know for sure

Everything will have to match for the ECU to know when to fire

The fact it comes up with a variation in position of the crankshaft is not within the acceptable range of values

Probably means there’s a mismatch somewhere

With Delphi or WoW you can look at the cam timing. You can probably do the same with MultiECUscan

The same software can be used to clear and relearn

Adaptive setting can only be wiped with software. Disconnecting the battery makes no difference

 

[WildFeraligatr]

Sorry, the engine came from an '06 Panda, not a Punto!

Everything is in the same positions and is as the Haynes manual states.

What's Delphi and WoW? I'm not familiar with these at all. Would I be able to bring the ECU into a local auto repair shop and get them to wipe the adaptive values?

 

[koalar]

What's Delphi and WoW? I'm not familiar with these at all.

Professional diagnostic software

 

[koalar]

Can you post a picture of both camshaft pulley

I assume you have a

Euro 3 and trying to fit a euro 4

 

[WildFeraligatr]

Can you post a picture of both camshaft pulley

I assume you have a

Euro 3 and trying to fit a euro 4

Will post a pic when I get home but I'm reasonably confident I have a Euro 4 and trying to fit a Euro 5.

Google seems to reckon that I can 'wipe' the ECU to factory settings by connecting both battery terminals with a jump lead after disconnecting from the battery - is this the case? If not, is this something an auto shop would be able to do if I took the ECU to them? Don't particularly fancy spending lots of money on specialist diagnostic software I'm only gonna use once, this bloody project has cost me enough as it is

 

[koalar]

If it helps inform anything the timing belt on the new engine was slightly slimmer than on the old engine - learned this the hard way when ordering bits.

This has me slightly worried

As far as I know the only engines with a narrower timing belts were early 1.1 which would have a square oil filler

I thought all 1.2 mk3 all had the same belt only the tensioner has been upgraded

 

[koalar]

Will post a pic when I get home but I'm reasonably confident I have a Euro 4 and trying to fit a Euro 5.

Euro 5 around 2009 99% will have vvt

Original panda MK3 was euro 3

Google seems to reckon that I can 'wipe' the ECU to factory settings by connecting both battery terminals with a jump lead after disconnecting from the battery - is this the case?

No 100% internet rubbish. In these ECUs all permanent setting and adaptive settings are stored in permanent memory.

If not, is this something an auto shop would be able to do if I took the ECU to them? Don't particularly fancy spending lots of money on specialist diagnostic software I'm only gonna use once, this bloody project has cost me enough as it is

I doubt it will help. Adaptive setting are normally relearnt within a few minutes. Phonic relearn hasn’t been needed on a panda and even on the punto they start but just throw an engine light at high revs

 

[WildFeraligatr]

Euro 5 around 2009 99% will have vvt

Original panda MK3 was euro 3

No 100% internet rubbish. In these ECUs all permanent setting and adaptive settings are stored in permanent memory.

I doubt it will help. Adaptive setting are normally relearnt within a few minutes. Phonic relearn hasn’t been needed on a panda and even on the punto they start but just throw an engine light at high revs

Don't I want it to relearn the adaptive settings to suit the new engine?

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

They don't seem to be the exact same - both have cam sensors however one has a square fill cap and the new one has a round fill cap (i believe this makes it a Euro-5 model). The car is a 2004 1.2 Dynamic and the new engine is off a 2006 Punto I believe. The new engine also came with a newer-type throttle without an accelerator cable whereas the old engine has the accelerator cable (which i have kept and just fitted to the new engine).

I've been following this thread with great interest because it's delving into areas I'm less knowledgeable about. What I do know is that the square rubber push fit oil cap identifies a Euro 4 engine and it's cam cover is held on with 4 small (6mm) bolts. The round screw on oil filler cap with 8 bolts holding it down identifies the Euro 5 engine. As far as I know both engines have throttle cables (my 2010 Euro 5 has one) so I'm slightly confused by your mention of the "new" engine having no throttle cable - or do you mean it just didn't come with one fitted so you've used the old one? Anyway that wouldn't stop the engine from firing up.

At first I would assume that if you're getting that error code it means that the ecu is "seeing" a signal from the Crank sensor but now I'm not so sure because you've got two completely different generations of engine here and you're trying to run a Euro 5 with a Euro 4 ECU. You're getting an error code but can we be sure it's relevant with a missmatch like this? Then again you say you've tried it with the old sensor from the old engine? and still get the code? if so then that would seem to knock that one in the head.

The more my very simple and not very "electronic" brain thinks about this the more it keeps saying to me that there's a problem with continuity between the crank sensor and the ECU. But then again I'm a man who like hitting things with big hammers or levering them with a big screwdriver, maybe throwing on a few swearwords too.

I'd like to put it on MES and see what it thinks of it because there have been numerous posts on here about people being mislead by generic obd readers/scan tools which were proved to be wrong when scanned with either a dealer level tool or the excellent Multiecuscan.

 

[koalar]

trying to run a Euro 5 with a Euro 4 ECU.

Am going with the original was a 3

Engine code

169AXB1A 01 euro 3
169AXB1A 01C euro 4

I don’t know whether this lines up with the square and round oil caps (sounds likely)

If it’s got two electrical connectors on top of the valve cover it’s VVT and euro 5

 

[irc]

Pretty sure fly by wire throttle was used on Euro3/4/5 dualogics, so could be the new engine came from a Dualogic.
I've not put a round oil cap engine on a square oil cap car, although I did know there are 2 versions of the square oil cap engine, one with timing marks and one without...
@koalar Do the "floating pulley" engines use different sensors, and if so, is it possible that they generate different signals?
(I'm only butting in because I've got a 55 plate Panda with a knackered floating pulley square filler engine and the only good spare I have is a fixed pulley one from an 04 plate Panda, and it might be relevant to me)

 

[koalar]

...
@koalar Do the "floating pulley" engines use different sensors, and if so, is it possible that they generate different signals?

I don’t know that what I am trying to find out

The OP here is getting an error code that’s says the cam is not where it expected to be