Technical Anyone breaking down a 169? Part no. 51759683 (body control) needed

[johnsonolly]

Hi,

In need of a body control unit for my Panda, part number 51759683, if anyone is breaking down a Panda or has a spare please let me know. Have tried at local breakers yards but no luck as of yet.
Cheers.

 

[koalar]

Hi sorry I dont have one

it is my understanding you can't just swap body computer from the breakers or similar as it contains all the security for the car it may be possible to clone one with IoTerminal and BSI2 license possibility other software.

Of cause I could be wrong. I have never known fail and not be repairable, out of curiosity whats wrong with yours

 

[johnsonolly]

Hi sorry I dont have one

it is my understanding you can't just swap body computer from the breakers or similar as it contains all the security for the car it may be possible to clone one with IoTerminal and BSI2 license possibility other software.

Of cause I could be wrong. I have never known fail and not be repairable, out of curiosity whats wrong with yours

Okay, thanks.
More info here, but basically I get intermittent engine stalling and an error message saying "hill-holder failure, engine failure, esp failure". Had diagnostics run but obd can't make a connection past the body control unit.
Had a look round online and managed to find some replacement ECU/clock/body control kits. These might change the my "reprogrammable multifunction display" to one of the more basic ones which is slightly annoying, and because they come with a new barrel could mean that I have to get all the locks changed but I don't actually know how that bit works.

 

[DaveMcT]

The instrument panel, engine ECU and body computer are electronically locked together on first power-up. They *can* be virginised but you'd be better getting the original tested by ECU Testing Ltd. I had a similar refusal of the OBD port to power up. I believe it was a faulty relay but never discovered the full cause. Pull every relay and test with power to confirm they are working. Swap around those of same type to see if there's abad connection somewhere.

 

[johnsonolly]

The instrument panel, engine ECU and body computer are electronically locked together on first power-up. They *can* be virginised but you'd be better getting the original tested by ECU Testing Ltd. I had a similar refusal of the OBD port to power up. I believe it was a faulty relay but never discovered the full cause. Pull every relay and test with power to confirm they are working. Swap around those of same type to see if there's abad connection somewhere.

Wish I was but I'm not electronically inclined enough to be doing that sort of testing. Had some local mobile diagnostic mechanics come out to take a look so looking for parts now based on their advice. Currently looking for a clock/ECU/body computer kit.

 

[irc]

Never had one fail.
Had "Engine Failure" error on a car I picked up for someone. Turned out to be a selection of bad earth cables and loose connections.
(Took about 3 hours to sort. Would probably have been 30 minutes if it hadn't been "investigated" by a breakdown recovery guy)
I think the one that caused the engine to cut out was the alternator connection, although it could also have been the ECU earth cable.
Although... it did have an aftermarket stereo fitted which I also pulled out as it wouldn't switch off. Thinking back, this could have been the original cause of the problem which led to the breakdown.
Anyway, my money is on earth cables and loose connections.
Would be really surprised if it was the BCU.
Edit: you haven't recently fitted a new radio have you?

 

[johnsonolly]

Never had one fail.
Had "Engine Failure" error on a car I picked up for someone. Turned out to be a selection of bad earth cables and loose connections.
(Took about 3 hours to sort. Would probably have been 30 minutes if it hadn't been "investigated" by a breakdown recovery guy)
I think the one that caused the engine to cut out was the alternator connection, although it could also have been the ECU earth cable.
Although... it did have an aftermarket stereo fitted which I also pulled out as it wouldn't switch off. Thinking back, this could have been the original cause of the problem which led to the breakdown.
Anyway, my money is on earth cables and loose connections.
Would be really surprised if it was the BCU.

Already had the earth connections checked, that was the mechanics first thoughts when he saw it. Also checked for loose connections

 

[johnsonolly]

Never had one fail.
Had "Engine Failure" error on a car I picked up for someone. Turned out to be a selection of bad earth cables and loose connections.
(Took about 3 hours to sort. Would probably have been 30 minutes if it hadn't been "investigated" by a breakdown recovery guy)
I think the one that caused the engine to cut out was the alternator connection, although it could also have been the ECU earth cable.
Although... it did have an aftermarket stereo fitted which I also pulled out as it wouldn't switch off. Thinking back, this could have been the original cause of the problem which led to the breakdown.
Anyway, my money is on earth cables and loose connections.
Would be really surprised if it was the BCU.
Edit: you haven't recently fitted a new radio have you?

No new radio, still the original. I have fitted a Bluetooth module into the back, where the cd changer would go, but that has been in for 8months longer than I've been having the engine failure issue

 

[johnsonolly]

I took a video of the error messages shown, should be viewable:

New video by Olly Johnson

photos.app.goo.gl

 

[koalar]

The instrument panel, engine ECU and body computer are electronically locked together on first power-up. They *can* be virginised but you'd be better getting the original tested by ECU Testing Ltd. I had a similar refusal of the OBD port to power up. I believe it was a faulty relay but never discovered the full cause. Pull every relay and test with power to confirm they are working. Swap around those of same type to see if there's abad connection somewhere.

not correct
you can blank the ECU and it will copy over the data from the BSI

A blank BSI will not do anything
the only option are to pre program or clone the original. Not a DIY job in my opinion

Anyone selling a BSI to an unsuspecting customer has just made money for a useless bit of scrap

yes you can fit a complete set with key

99% sure its not needed in this case

 

[johnsonolly]

not correct
you can blank the ECU and it will copy over the data from the BSI

A blank BSI will not do anything
the only option are to pre program or clone the original. Not a DIY job in my opinion

Anyone selling a BSI to an unsuspecting customer has just made money for a useless bit of scrap

yes you can fit a complete set with key

99% sure its not needed in this case

Can a barrel be recoded? Or would I also have to get the external locks replaced to match too?

Any other ideas for what it could be then? The earth connections have already been tested and they are fine. The issue is intermittent, I did 100 miles on it in the past week with no issues, but the week before i would get the error message 2-3+ times even on <5mile trips.
Another issue the mechanics had was when they reassembled it the first time, whenever the windows were wound up (front, electric) the climate control and windscreen wipers would turn on. Once they took it out and put it all back in again seems to be completely fine now.

 

[koalar]

Had diagnostics run but obd can't make a connection past the body control unit.

hard to know from this as to whats going on

if this is what you have been told if its been lost in translation it simply just not how the diagnostic connector works. airbag and steering are completely separate of the BSI Unfortunately the ABS does travel through the BSI

Most of the engine is also separate, but its communication lines are shared

• at pin 16 receives a direct battery supply;
• at pin 4: reference earth;
• at pin 5: electronic earth;
• pin 3: information coming from the Air Bag control unit M060;
• pin 9: information coming from the electric steering control unit M086;
• pin 7: information coming from the body computer node M001 , with reference to the data communicated by the engine management control unit M010.
• pin 13: information coming from the body computer node M001 , with reference to the data communicated by the parking control unit M084;

 

[johnsonolly]

hard to know from this as to whats going on

if this is what you have been told if its been lost in translation it simply just not how the diagnostic connector works. airbag and steering are completely separate of the BSI Unfortunately the ABS does travel through the BSI

Most of the engine is also separate, but its communication lines are shared

• at pin 16 receives a direct battery supply;
• at pin 4: reference earth;
• at pin 5: electronic earth;
• pin 3: information coming from the Air Bag control unit M060;
• pin 9: information coming from the electric steering control unit M086;
• pin 7: information coming from the body computer node M001 , with reference to the data communicated by the engine management control unit M010.
• pin 13: information coming from the body computer node M001 , with reference to the data communicated by the parking control unit M084;

Could well be that I am not quoting perfectly what they told me the problem was. They definitely said that they checked the earth though, as that was his initial thinking before coming to take a look, but it looked fine.
When they tried to connect with their OBD reader it didn't seem to work, when they used a laptop based one "it had a partial connection" (not sure if this is 100% correct as it was last week).
Then today they tested a load more, tried to see if it was a faulty wire, lose/worn connection, but now believe it is being caused by the body control unit.

 

[koalar]

Can a barrel be recoded? Or would I also have to get the external locks replaced to match too?

Any other ideas for what it could be then? The earth connections have already been tested and they are fine. The issue is intermittent, I did 100 miles on it in the past week with no issues, but the week before i would get the error message 2-3+ times even on <5mile trips.
Another issue the mechanics had was when they reassembled it the first time, whenever the windows were wound up (front, electric) the climate control and windscreen wipers would turn on. Once they took it out and put it all back in again seems to be completely fine now.

Yes but pointless, You have to take the door cards off and remove the lock. It would be cheaper to just change the lock to match the new key, BSI, ECU, instrument cluster they are sold as a set

sounds more like a wiring problem to me. Going through the pain, time and expense of changing a complete set and still be back to square one would bug me.

things are totally random. Heat, time, bumps, cornering, low revs, first thing in morning and so on. Some sort of pattern would help

A professional introducing a new fault slightly concerns me, wipers coming on is the circuit finding a new path to earth through the low resistance of the motor windings, we get that quite a lot at the rear where the rear light cluster earth gets burnt out causing the rear wiper to come on when braking.

 

[koalar]

I am trying to think of a way to progress forwards,

without knowing what tools and your skill level its hard to know a best route to take.

lets see if I have the symptoms correct

You say the car stalls
is this only a junctions say, Or can it cut out say going down the motorway

in your video I see

engine failure
hill-hold failure
ESP failure
and the engine is hot but appears to be idling at 1400 revs

have I got this correct

 

[johnsonolly]

Yes but pointless, You have to take the door cards off and remove the lock. It would be cheaper to just change the lock to match the new key, BSI, ECU, instrument cluster they are sold as a set

sounds more like a wiring problem to me. Going through the pain, time and expense of changing a complete set and still be back to square one would bug me.

things are totally random. Heat, time, bumps, cornering, low revs, first thing in morning and so on. Some sort of pattern would help

A professional introducing a new fault slightly concerns me, wipers coming on is the circuit finding a new path to earth through the low resistance of the motor windings, we get that quite a lot at the rear where the rear light cluster earth gets burnt out causing the rear wiper to come on when braking.

Okay cheers. They did a check of the wiring but couldn’t find any issues, that was also their thinking.

In terms of a pattern, it seems to be when under load, e.g. accelerating up a hill/onto a dual carriage way. No pattern in terms of hot/cold, sometimes has occurred 2-3 minutes after starting, others after it’s up to temp after 15 or so minutes. No pattern in terms of cornering, although I think it has mainly only occurred on straights. Same r.e. bumps and revs, no pattern I have noticed.

Since they did some initial diagnostics last week, I have done 100-150 miles with no faults at all, mixture of motorway driving and shorter shop trips. Before that, it would be occurring 2-5 ish times on even short <5 mile journeys, sometimes successively, sometimes spread out.

That said, at the beginning of April I drove from York-Northumberland and back, also with no errors at all. So from that the shorter journeys seem to be worse for the faults.

I’m not exactly sure what they did, but they’ve got it all back to “normal” now. Haven’t driven it this evening but it starts fine and none of the random things turning on when the windows are operated

 

[johnsonolly]

I am trying to think of a way to progress forwards,

without knowing what tools and your skill level its hard to know a best route to take.

lets see if I have the symptoms correct

You say the car stalls
is this only a junctions say, Or can it cut out say going down the motorway

in your video I see

engine failure
hill-hold failure
ESP failure
and the engine is hot but appears to be idling at 1400 revs

have I got this correct

Tools and skills pretty basic, I have replaced the clock spring myself but that’s the most “advanced” work I’ve done on it.
Cutting out has only happened when the cars moving, never just whilst idling.
Also only seems to be when under acceleration rather that steady state.
Car stalls, those error messages as in the video show, but disappear when the ignition is turned off then on again. When this occurs, it is usually is fine, but sometimes has stalled almost immediately upon accelerating again and requires another 1-2 restarts before it’s happy.
Faults cycle between esp failure, engine failure, and hill holder failure yep.
Idling at about 1400 but this is the only time that it hasn’t stalled when the errors start. Usually it cuts straight out. Not sure why it did it this time, again no clear pattern and usually it cuts straight out! Idling pretty high here usually about 900 but I do have radio + ac + lights on.
Thanks for your help!

 

[koalar]

thanks for the reply

strange thing is a fairly common fault on the Punto sporting

thats down to a faulty temperature sensor, cars have almost identical wiring

Engine, ESP, Hill Holder Failure Lights, MKIIb | FIAT Punto (Mk2/2b)

Hi Guys, Story starts one day when it was very cold and I took a trip 25 minutes down the road. After shopping around the high-street I came back to the car (Fiat Punto 2004 MK2b Sporting 1.4) and it had since been snowing heavily and was even colder. When I started it up and the following...

www.fiatforum.com

but this failure also put on the engine fan on.

 

[johnsonolly]

thanks for the reply

strange thing is a fairly common fault on the Punto sporting

thats down to a faulty temperature sensor, cars have almost identical wiring

Engine, ESP, Hill Holder Failure Lights, MKIIb | FIAT Punto (Mk2/2b)

Hi Guys, Story starts one day when it was very cold and I took a trip 25 minutes down the road. After shopping around the high-street I came back to the car (Fiat Punto 2004 MK2b Sporting 1.4) and it had since been snowing heavily and was even colder. When I started it up and the following...

www.fiatforum.com

but this failure also put on the engine fan on.

Hm interesting, I haven’t noticed the fan but I’ll make sure to check next time it occurs

 

[koalar]

Hm interesting, I haven’t noticed the fan but I’ll make sure to check next time it occurs

been thinking about this one, struggling to find a cheap and easy way to proceed

You dont always hear the fans due to road noise except at idle. Sometimes you see the coolant temperature gauge alter. Should raise to mid way in the First couple of miles and stay there, Unless the interior heaters are blowing full.


intermittent faults can be a pain. If it was my car I would run around with a flight recorder connected. Set to log the sensors and battery voltage to an SD card to be viewed later. It can get expensive changing thing on a gut feeling only to find the fault still present.

Now its known for the engine failure, hill-hold failure, ESP failure to flash up due to one faulty sensor it seem likely its not as expensive as a new set of electronics. Hopefully Good news.

"stalled almost immediately upon accelerating again and requires another 1-2 restarts before it’s happy"

again this "could" point to a sensor. They sometimes give wild reading then fine when they cool down a bit

I am moving away from earth/wiring fault

if I can't connect to the ECU its probably a traffic jam on the B CAN network most things uses the same two wires. Id probably start by disconnecting the phone receiver and radio and see if then connected.