Technical 169 1.2 thermostat 'bypass'?

Currently reading:
Technical 169 1.2 thermostat 'bypass'?

Most (possibly all) cars fuel read lower after the car been sitting awhile

It’s just the way they work not just fiats

Usually most noticeable when close to the empty

Pandas pretty good compared to some cars I had
 
See what you mean about the hills lol, what about your fuel gauge? I'm not talking about it swinging about all over the place but if you park so it's tilted to the left/nearside do you find that when you start it up the fuel guage is lower than before you parked? same with facing up hill when parked.
Another little quirk I've found is say for instance you are driving around and you pull up and turn off and get out and the fuel guage was showing BANG ON in the middle for the purpose of this explanation, the next time you get in the needle never registers what it did when you turned it off! It always shows lower than when you turned the bleeding thing off!
With both guages being a little squiffy it may well be a voltage stabiliser problem, they used to be an actual separate item you could 'unplug' from behind the dash binnacle off the printed circuit , I used to sell loads of them back in the day (but I think for Nissan micra, could have been early fiat's too, long time ago), I doubt very much its the same set up on the panda dash now but could the haywire readings be down to another little earthing quirk these cars are so fond of?

Both my 1.1's do this, and my multijet was like this and an aquaintences 1.1 is the same too, can't just be a coincidence?
Modern cars only read the fuel gauge at startup
Any movement from there on tends to be calculated based on the trip computer's fuel use


This can be noticed on cars with a add or LPG kit fitted as the fuel gauge will still drop when running on LPG and they can show the original value again when you start up again
 
In the old days they used a relay box with resistors to provide a reasonably constant voltage to the fuel and temperature gauges. When this relay packed up, the displayed levels would wander all over the place. Modern electronics are more accurate but are only intended to give an approximation. Sadly, this means your fuel system will stop showing miles remaining or the tank level when its near empty. It clears up & goes home, just when you need it most.
 
Modern cars only read the fuel gauge at startup
Any movement from there on tends to be calculated based on the trip computer's fuel use


This can be noticed on cars with a add or LPG kit fitted as the fuel gauge will still drop when running on LPG and they can show the original value again when you start up again
are you sure that applies to the Panda

"fuel level gauge is managed according to the signal coming from the level detector located in electric fuel pump unit N040. The Body Computer provides the sensor with a reference earth (pin 17 of connector F) and receives a proportional signal at pin 4 of the same connector, and forwards it to instrument panel E050 via the B-CAN."



I know the software sorts out the tank shape, damps out the corning and hills and so on. But when you put a small dash of petrol in, even though you've switched the car off it takes a short while before the gauge registers, so must read at least some time after ignition on.
 
I will give you two pence worth on the subject; mine have always done this, even with new stats, never been able to get the needle to stay on the middle, was like it from NEW, when coasting down hills in gear the needle drops to just over a quarter ( no combustion happening, just a high volume of intake air drawn in) then settles between a quarter and half, climbing hills or motorway work get it to just under half, the rad fan kicks in if its been idling with the needle just under half in about 2 to 3 minutes, no matter where the needle is under normal driving the heater is piping hot so I've put it down to that's 'just how they are' in my opinion as long as the heater works OK and it doesn't overheat your fine, you trying 3 brand new stats confirm this, they are a cinch to bleed anyway, they more or less bleed themselves when you put the coolant back in and the heater hose bleed screw undone about 1 turn. Mines been like yours for ten years, as long as your heater works your fine, if your heater is cold you have a problem, hope that helps.
Pretty much the same on mine. Warms up quickly, hovers between 1/3 and half temp', drops considerably- and quickly- on descents- and is causing no issues. I suspect a vague-ish gauge (standard ?) and standard engine cooling patterns...
 
Pretty much the same on mine. Warms up quickly, hovers between 1/3 and half temp', drops considerably- and quickly- on descents- and is causing no issues. I suspect a vague-ish gauge (standard ?) and standard engine cooling patterns...
almost certainly coolant passing the thermostat

start your car from cold

put your hand on the top Hose. Should stay cold for a couple of minutes

report back. I will guess it starts to warm up as soon as the car is started
 
In the old days they used a relay box with resistors to provide a reasonably constant voltage to the fuel and temperature gauges. When this relay packed up, the displayed levels would wander all over the place. Modern electronics are more accurate but are only intended to give an approximation. Sadly, this means your fuel system will stop showing miles remaining or the tank level when its near empty. It clears up & goes home, just when you need it most.
I well remember the old Voltage stabilizer which was used on many cars of the 60's 70's and even into the 80's. It was a small oblong metal component: https://www.autoelectricsupplies.co.uk/product/1062/category/195 early examples of which contained, if my memory serves me correctly, little more than a bimetalic strip? Later versions contained electronics and were much more durable. They cut battery voltage to around 10 volts which then powered the likes of fuel and temperature gauges. I think the idea was that, as battery voltage fluctuates depending on charging (and, unlike alternators, dynamos didn't charge at tickover) by regulating the supply to the gauges to 10 volts then these fluctuations wouldn't be "seen" by the instruments so they would give steady readings. If they failed and fed the full battery voltage to the instruments you would think your engine was running hot or you had more fuel than you really had! The earlier versions were not all that reliable and from time to time you'd get the job of changing one. They were usually lurking somewhere on the back of the instrument cluster but dashboards on those cars were much easier to work on so it wasn't such a bad job to do.
 
There have been quite a number of posts in this thread and elsewhere about temperature gauges on the FIRE family engines showing steady readings somewhat below the half way "normal" mark - quite often around half way between "cold" and "normal". People report that the car continues to run well and pass it's MOT test like this. Indeed our present Panda - Becky - had this problem when we bought her and, knowing there was probably nothing seriously wrong I sorted out other more pressing stuff, like the timing belt etc, before I did a thermostat and she ran absolutely fine and passed her MOT with the old thermostat in. With the new thermostat fitted I get a quicker warm up, slightly better fuel consumption, the heater is definitely somewhat hotter on cold winter days and the tick over is slightly smoother (she had a slight tendency to miss a beat now and again when idling with the old thermostat in). Mostly though, because the car does a lot of local journeys, I like the fact that the engine is now getting fully up to temp more quickly and runs hotter so is probably driving off internal condensation and evaporating any fuel that might be diluting the engine oil on cold starts. In my opinion, as long as there's no other problem - like a faulty sensor perhaps? or loose/corroded connection? - the needle should sit half way up the gauge with a hot engine.

I suppose it's possible that a very few of these may be due to other reasons, but, as long as the coolant is up to the correct level and there's not a serious air lock somewhere in the system, I can say, with some considerable certainty, that these cars most probably have a thermostat problem. Often due to the coolant leaking past the rubber seal on the disk but I've also seen the thermostat itself just opening too soon. 2 of my 3 children, now well into their 40's, learned to drive in Pandas and one now has a Punto - and we've run Pandas as second "city" cars for over 30 years. We generally keep them for many years - one we had for about 20 years - and all have suffered this temperature gauge aberration. Keep 'em long enough and they'll probably do it. Stick a new thermostat in and all is well until it does it again. Some last for ages, others for a couple of years or so, seems to be pot luck whether you get a "goodun" or not.

As mentioned by Koalar above. With the engine cold start it up and grip the top radiator hose with your hand (taking care to avoid rotating or hot engine parts - exhaust, fan belt, etc) The hose should stay cold for quite a while, maybe 5 minutes? depending on ambient temp, because the thermostat should be preventing any water from the engine going through this hose to the radiator. Then, very suddenly, as the engine water temp reaches the thermostat opening temp (not far short of 90 deg so nearly boiling) the top hose should get hot, very hot very quickly, and you'll want to take your hand off it! if it starts getting warm soon after starting it and it then gradually continues, over a period of minutes to get gradually warmer and then hotter then the thermostat is not holding the water back and needs to be renewed.

Damn, I've done something which is making this come out in italics - don't know how to stop it!

If you're not very experienced it can be difficult to know how long that top hose should stay cold or how hot it should feel. So, if you want to further verify this, and you know where the feed pipe to the heater is, - back of the cylinder head on earlier engines and coming off the thermostat housing on newer ones - then, after starting from cold hold on to both the top rad hose and heater feed hose. The thermostat doesn't stop water going through the heater so you should feel the heater hose heating up gradually as the engine heats the water but the top radiator hose should stay cold until the thermostat opens so your heater hose is going to be roasty toasty with your top rad hose cold until it very suddenly gets very hot as the thermostat opens and lets hot water from the engine go to the radiator. It's worth factoring in that the rubber of the hose itself is heat insulating so sometimes you'll get a better feel by putting your hand on the radiator header tank rather than the top hose as the header tank will often transmit the heat quicker. By the way, on modern engines the dashboard heater controls don't affect water flow so it doesn't make any difference whether they are set to hot or cold in terms of the water heating up - although if you're moving, or have the heater fan on, and you want the coolant to get up to temp as rapidly as possible you are best to set the heater controls to cold and turn the fan off which will stop cold air going through the heater matrix.

Right, I'm off to google how to switch these italics off now - Me and computers? a disaster! wish me luck.
 
I well remember the old Voltage stabilizer which was used on many cars of the 60's 70's and even into the 80's. It was a small oblong metal component: https://www.autoelectricsupplies.co.uk/product/1062/category/195 early examples of which contained, if my memory serves me correctly, little more than a bimetalic strip? Later versions contained electronics and were much more durable. They cut battery voltage to around 10 volts which then powered the likes of fuel and temperature gauges. I think the idea was that, as battery voltage fluctuates depending on charging (and, unlike alternators, dynamos didn't charge at tickover) by regulating the supply to the gauges to 10 volts then these fluctuations wouldn't be "seen" by the instruments so they would give steady readings. If they failed and fed the full battery voltage to the instruments you would think your engine was running hot or you had more fuel than you really had! The earlier versions were not all that reliable and from time to time you'd get the job of changing one. They were usually lurking somewhere on the back of the instrument cluster but dashboards on those cars were much easier to work on so it wasn't such a bad job to do.
Yep those are the ones
 
are you sure that applies to the Panda

"fuel level gauge is managed according to the signal coming from the level detector located in electric fuel pump unit N040. The Body Computer provides the sensor with a reference earth (pin 17 of connector F) and receives a proportional signal at pin 4 of the same connector, and forwards it to instrument panel E050 via the B-CAN."



I know the software sorts out the tank shape, damps out the corning and hills and so on. But when you put a small dash of petrol in, even though you've switched the car off it takes a short while before the gauge registers, so must read at least some time after ignition on.
I've not driven a panda but I've not seen a car that doesn't register the fuel that's been added to the tank right after filling up?
 
There have been quite a number of posts in this thread and elsewhere about temperature gauges on the FIRE family engines showing steady readings somewhat below the half way "normal" mark - quite often around half way between "cold" and "normal". People report that the car continues to run well and pass it's MOT test like this. Indeed our present Panda - Becky - had this problem when we bought her and, knowing there was probably nothing seriously wrong I sorted out other more pressing stuff, like the timing belt etc, before I did a thermostat and she ran absolutely fine and passed her MOT with the old thermostat in. With the new thermostat fitted I get a quicker warm up, slightly better fuel consumption, the heater is definitely somewhat hotter on cold winter days and the tick over is slightly smoother (she had a slight tendency to miss a beat now and again when idling with the old thermostat in). Mostly though, because the car does a lot of local journeys, I like the fact that the engine is now getting fully up to temp more quickly and runs hotter so is probably driving off internal condensation and evaporating any fuel that might be diluting the engine oil on cold starts. In my opinion, as long as there's no other problem - like a faulty sensor perhaps? or loose/corroded connection? - the needle should sit half way up the gauge with a hot engine.

I suppose it's possible that a very few of these may be due to other reasons, but, as long as the coolant is up to the correct level and there's not a serious air lock somewhere in the system, I can say, with some considerable certainty, that these cars most probably have a thermostat problem. Often due to the coolant leaking past the rubber seal on the disk but I've also seen the thermostat itself just opening too soon. 2 of my 3 children, now well into their 40's, learned to drive in Pandas and one now has a Punto - and we've run Pandas as second "city" cars for over 30 years. We generally keep them for many years - one we had for about 20 years - and all have suffered this temperature gauge aberration. Keep 'em long enough and they'll probably do it. Stick a new thermostat in and all is well until it does it again. Some last for ages, others for a couple of years or so, seems to be pot luck whether you get a "goodun" or not.

As mentioned by Koalar above. With the engine cold start it up and grip the top radiator hose with your hand (taking care to avoid rotating or hot engine parts - exhaust, fan belt, etc) The hose should stay cold for quite a while, maybe 5 minutes? depending on ambient temp, because the thermostat should be preventing any water from the engine going through this hose to the radiator. Then, very suddenly, as the engine water temp reaches the thermostat opening temp (not far short of 90 deg so nearly boiling) the top hose should get hot, very hot very quickly, and you'll want to take your hand off it! if it starts getting warm soon after starting it and it then gradually continues, over a period of minutes to get gradually warmer and then hotter then the thermostat is not holding the water back and needs to be renewed.

Damn, I've done something which is making this come out in italics - don't know how to stop it!

If you're not very experienced it can be difficult to know how long that top hose should stay cold or how hot it should feel. So, if you want to further verify this, and you know where the feed pipe to the heater is, - back of the cylinder head on earlier engines and coming off the thermostat housing on newer ones - then, after starting from cold hold on to both the top rad hose and heater feed hose. The thermostat doesn't stop water going through the heater so you should feel the heater hose heating up gradually as the engine heats the water but the top radiator hose should stay cold until the thermostat opens so your heater hose is going to be roasty toasty with your top rad hose cold until it very suddenly gets very hot as the thermostat opens and lets hot water from the engine go to the radiator. It's worth factoring in that the rubber of the hose itself is heat insulating so sometimes you'll get a better feel by putting your hand on the radiator header tank rather than the top hose as the header tank will often transmit the heat quicker. By the way, on modern engines the dashboard heater controls don't affect water flow so it doesn't make any difference whether they are set to hot or cold in terms of the water heating up - although if you're moving, or have the heater fan on, and you want the coolant to get up to temp as rapidly as possible you are best to set the heater controls to cold and turn the fan off which will stop cold air going through the heater matrix.

Right, I'm off to google how to switch these italics off now - Me and computers? a disaster! wish me luck.
Absolutely agree but...... Our 1.1 has had the guage read about 4mm underneath the middle of the guage on average FROM NEW, it's always at 'normal running' sitting about 4mm under the half way mark, two new thermostats didn't make a difference, yes it was bled correctly, no air locks.
Labouring up a hill makes it rise, descending a hill makes the guage go down to just above a quarter, if I leave if to idle for between five and ten minutes the needle rises to half, another five minutes and the fan kicks in.
From cold the top hose gets warm, ie, the thermostat opens about 5 minutes in, it never overheats or more importantly the guage NEVER goes over a half and even in the depths of winter with the temp dial on the heater turned to max on fan speed 3 AND whilst descending a hill the heater is toasty and warm.
Get out of that one ☺️
 
Last edited:
Pretty much the same on mine. Warms up quickly, hovers between 1/3 and half temp', drops considerably- and quickly- on descents- and is causing no issues. I suspect a vague-ish gauge (standard ?) and standard engine cooling patterns...
Yep I'm inclined to say some run with the guage bang on the middle, some hover about 4mm below the middle. It's just how they are
 
I've not driven a panda but I've not seen a car that doesn't register the fuel that's been added to the tank right after filling up?
I have had one panda and the other half two. (05,06 and 10) they all do this if you are near empty and only put or two litres in the computer slow to realise its a genuine increase and not just on a slop or something

put 10 litres in and it registers the increase straightaway.

100% sure this happen with my cars
 
almost certainly coolant passing the thermostat

start your car from cold

put your hand on the top Hose. Should stay cold for a couple of minutes

report back. I will guess it starts to warm up as soon as the car is started
Like I said- no problems as far as I can see... Car warms up quickly. Stat' opens up within a mile or so- and then the pattern on the gauge as described. My only slight concern at the moment- I haven't heard my fan come on yet- though it hasn't been past the 1/2 way point on the temp...
 
Like I said- no problems as far as I can see... Car warms up quickly. Stat' opens up within a mile or so- and then the pattern on the gauge as described. My only slight concern at the moment- I haven't heard my fan come on yet- though it hasn't been past the 1/2 way point on the temp...
Mine has to be really hot for the fan to come on too, has to be idling for a long time, without the heater on and has to get really warm for it to come on, even in holiday traffic in the summer it doesn't come on as often as you would expect, another sign the cooling system is coping well, no leaking thermostat because it's keeping pressure and raising the boiling point.
When my fan comes on the needle never gets past half either, sits bang in the middle.
 
Mine has to be really hot for the fan to come on too, has to be idling for a long time, without the heater on and has to get really warm for it to come on, even in holiday traffic in the summer it doesn't come on as often as you would expect, another sign the cooling system is coping well, no leaking thermostat because it's keeping pressure and raising the boiling point.
When my fan comes on the needle never gets past half either, sits bang in the middle.
I agree with you on the fan. Last time I actually remember hearing ours was when I was running her up to eliminate air after filling her up post fitting the new thermostat. Regarding the temp gauge indication I can only report what I've observed with all the Pandas we've owned which is that the temp gauge needle aligns with the half way mark when fully up to normal temperature. Wish I had one of those aimable heat detector guns - must keep an eye open when in Lidl/Aldi - as I could aim it at the top hose/ radiator header tank and see how nearly that temperature relates to the thermostat opening temp. However I'm not on any sort of a "mission" here to say that cars which show an indication less than half way up the gauge have a major problem (I'd like to aim a heat gun at one and compare readings though as this topic interests me). At the end of the day if your thermostat is working to spec and there are no observable problems then it is what it is and it wouldn't be worrying me if I bought one which behaved in this way.
 
I agree with you on the fan. Last time I actually remember hearing ours was when I was running her up to eliminate air after filling her up post fitting the new thermostat. Regarding the temp gauge indication I can only report what I've observed with all the Pandas we've owned which is that the temp gauge needle aligns with the half way mark when fully up to normal temperature. Wish I had one of those aimable heat detector guns - must keep an eye open when in Lidl/Aldi - as I could aim it at the top hose/ radiator header tank and see how nearly that temperature relates to the thermostat opening temp. However I'm not on any sort of a "mission" here to say that cars which show an indication less than half way up the gauge have a major problem (I'd like to aim a heat gun at one and compare readings though as this topic interests me). At the end of the day if your thermostat is working to spec and there are no observable problems then it is what it is and it wouldn't be worrying me if I bought one which behaved in this way.
I've got a thermo gun somewhere, it's in storage at the minute, I'm just waiting for the new house to be ready and I can start moving all my tools back in the man cave, I'll do a little test when I'm all straight and back to normal.
Could be just another one of their little quirks I reckon, maybe one 'batch' or a certain production run was amended or improved or had factory improvements along the way, some do it some don't. It's no biggie.
 
I've got a thermo gun somewhere, it's in storage at the minute, I'm just waiting for the new house to be ready and I can start moving all my tools back in the man cave, I'll do a little test when I'm all straight and back to normal.
Could be just another one of their little quirks I reckon, maybe one 'batch' or a certain production run was amended or improved or had factory improvements along the way, some do it some don't. It's no biggie.
"It's no biggie" I like that, sums it up well!
 
I haven't heard my fan come on yet- though it hasn't been past the 1/2 way point on the temp...
When I did my checks the other day it took 40 minutes (two rounds of the free Multicuescan) plus to reach the 97deg for the fan to cut in, this included using the throttle to speed heating up, so yes the engines run for ages until needing extra cooling, don't forget they are designed for hot mediterranean weather
 
Back
Top