Technical Weird Steering

[dastardly2023]

Glad to hear that you are a fairly competent mechanic . The top strut mount on my 2021 Panda has a 2mm wide gap which I drowned in squirty can chain lube Then wrapped it in a few layers of cling film . The anti roll bar bushes are not replaceable on my Panda one has to cough up €350 euros for a complete roll bar with moulded on bushes . I grease all of the ball joints using an hypodermic needle obtained from the local agricultural supplier to inject a few pumps of grease through the rubber gaiter .. Wiggle the joint after greasing . disconnect the steering ball joint to allow for a good wiggle of the struts . The anti roll bar drop link ball joints are a must for greasing they get quite a hammering . As far as the top nut torque / tightness is concerned I put a 10 inch long bit of tube on the allen key and give the nut a good tighten not enough to break the 6mm allen key . My Panda Hybrid 2021 strut top bearing is almost three times the dia of a friends Lancia Musa strut / fiat panda . Have fun .. Richard in Alvito Portugal .

 

[The Panda Nut]

All of you guys are obviously not technical . the twangy centering steering is caused by the anti roll bar drop link loads being fed into the Macpherson strut which is a A STEERING COMPONENT. Check out the photos I shortened the drop links and welded a lug onto the lower wishbone to take the anti roll bar forces . the added bonus is a more positive turn in to traffic islands when pressing on .The welded on lug is 5mm thick steel plate double welded . As you can see the whole front has to be removed to gain access to the front lower wishbone bolt . Quite an easy job . under 1/2 hour . increasing the caster angle may make the steering even nicer .. I have yet to check the factory caster settings. for more info and measurements email me [email protected].

Your more adventurous than me. I am sure what you have done will improve matters as its not a very fine solution bolting the link to the strut. The problems I have have slowly crept up and the car was acceptable in original state. Im not a confident welder or I might follow suit. Im also a scaredy cat re insurance and expect they might want the mod certificating even though it looks right enough as per you pictures

 

[koalar]

All of you guys are obviously not technical .

Obviously not

Thanks for the photos, great job.

This is not a modification I would consider, as I said earlier this needs to go in the post 2012 section

Here’s how I see it

the arms on these cars are cast iron. It’s not easy to weld to properly. It also needs to be heated before welding and heat treated after. Finding anyone capable of doing it properly would be difficult and expensive

Moving the mount along the arm gives it a mechanical advantage. I haven’t done any calculations but just eyeballing it look to reduce the amount of force by around 50%. In these cars with no rear anti roll bar it’s going effect body roll and weight transfer

It would not be legal to drive in the UK without informing your insurance company and they would want at least another 25%

If you think the ARB is causing a steering problem you could just disconnect one end of the drop link and test on a private road before committing time and effort

Of cause I could be wrong.

 

[dastardly2023]

Well guys you are all barking up the wrong tree. Relocate the anti roll bar link DOWN onto the lower suspension control arm . I have just road tested my weird fidgety 2021 Panda Hybrid . the steering issues are GONE and my 2021 16,000miles Panda Hybrid is now behaving itself . The anti roll bar loads feeding onto the Macpherson strut is what is causing the Dreaded Fiat Panda Macpherson strut shuffle . The Renault Twingo rear engined car has the same suicidal anti roll bar inputs onto the Macpherson struts . Because the Twingo is the rear engined one the light front end ducks and dives all over the place .easily twice as noticeable as the dreaded .Panda shuffle . [email protected]

 

[A3jeroen]

Man, man... Let it go 78 year old champion of whatever yesteryear.
This is the umptieth time you write about your change in suspension noone of us is allowed to or going to make.

 

[DaveMcT]

The bottom arms on later model Panda looks like welded pressed steel and the strut bracket is at the back.the 169 has the bracket at the front of the strut at similar height. Welding the later style bottom arms in a professional way is unlikely to raise any eyebrows. However the Panda 169 has cast iron bottom arms. Welding these will absolutely end in tears even though it's a better geometry option.

 

[dastardly2023]

well folks I have cured my weird fidgety 2021 fiat panda hybrid steering and some top mouth on the forum told me to get lost so good luck with their dumb suggestions .

 

[dastardly2023]

The bottom arms on later model Panda looks like welded pressed steel and the strut bracket is at the back.the 169 has the bracket at the front of the strut at similar height. Welding the later style bottom arms in a professional way is unlikely to raise any eyebrows. However the Panda 169 has cast iron bottom arms. Welding these will absolutely end in tears even though it's a better geometry option.

A friends Lancia Musa ( maybe Fiat panda the subframe underpinning looks similar . also has cast lower control arms and the subframe and anti roll bar connection is on the lower control arm .

 

[dastardly2023]

Man, man... Let it go 78 year old champion of whatever yesteryear.
This is the umptieth time you write about your change in suspension noone of us is allowed to or going to make.

Obviously there are those who know and those who think they know .. good luck .

 

[koalar]

Obviously there are those who know and those who think they know .. good luck .

As I have already said this is the wrong section. Pre 2012 cars are completely different

What are your maths for the old and new mounting points. I did a little model of my panda on a set of balance scales. ARB on a strut exerted 12oz moving it to the lower arm exerted 4oz

Here’s fiat take on their new arm

“The new Panda features all-new suspension that's been designed to improve comfort, handling, and crash safety performance. It's been lightened using a lower arm which for the first time on a European-made car has been constructed using ultra high-strength material. This combines with a modular cross member made of low thickness, high resistance steel sheets that works in conjunction with the third load path.”

Not sure I would be comfortable putting heat into it or adding a bending load to the centre of it

Welding looks off to me both sides should melt together not a bead run across the top. Although at low loads it will probably do


I know I sound negative. I don’t mean to be. It’s up to you what you do to you car as long as it’s legal in you country.

 

[DaveMcT]

The cast control arms used on older Panda (and maybe 500) will exert a lot of crash force into the subframe and then into the body shell. Until they break - suddenly. That will be a a brittle fracture thats impossible to define probably allowing the wheel to cause more damage to the body shell.
Going to a tubular steel bottom arm allows more defined bending to happen. Presumably causing less body shell damage and less impact on front seat people.

 

[dastardly2023]

hello Koaler .. as you may have already guessed I am not up to speed on the computer side of things .. your info is amazing .. not a clue where to obtain such detailed info .the 5mm thick attachment lug was veed , out both sides and filled with mig . then given a good coating of self etch primer and synthetic Corostop black . I do my own aligning and was suitably impressed with the alignment on a Hunter platform . mostly my Hands on wire parallelogram and caster / camber gauge settings were within a few minutes . I am sorry for posting my adventures in the wrong section . Mainly because I am a thicko when it comes to computer functions . My Panda hybrid is now a delight to own and drive . No more dodgy self steering .Please do not shout at me I am only trying to be of assistance with what seems to be a well known weird steering issue .with the Fiat panda,s . for everyone's info please check out the HUNTER alignment printout .attached . The lack of caster probably is intentional to soften the front suspensions reaction to bumpy roads . unfortunately the Fiat designers have shot themselves in the foot because the lack of straight line caster stability is easily overcome by the anti roll bar inputs . The NEW Panda,s anti roll bar has moulden on integral rubber support bushes and they are not replaceable .. It looks like the bar and bushes come as one unit and the subframe needs to be lowered to carry out any servicing / replacement .€350 euros instead of €12 euros for the older Panda arb bushes . The rear axle beam was mounted centrally on the body but had quite an offset / crabbing . there was enough clearance on the mounting holes to correct the offset and I balanced the 3mm of toe in using stainless steel shims cut from my 2 metre rotor r/c model gas turbine combustion chamber left over materials . wet gas start for the camera .0.3 mm stainless steel tubing fabrication materials supplied by Harald Zimmerman in Hilla / Bielefeld his son Tobias has taken over his fathers running of their silencer manufacturing business . germany .

 

[MrMagoo]

I've had two FIAT's with EPS - 2001 Punto Sporting Speedgear and my current 2009 Panda Dualogic, and I rate the steering feel and control highly for an EPS.
I don't get fidgeting or wondering and I use budget tyres; the car feels very tight and controlled at any speed.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Here’s fiat take on their new arm

“The new Panda features all-new suspension that's been designed to improve comfort, handling, and crash safety performance. It's been lightened using a lower arm which for the first time on a European-made car has been constructed using ultra high-strength material.

I've not been rummaging around in the forum much just of late because there's been so much going on with grandchildren, looking for a new car for my younger boy and helping sort out what we are going to do about my daughter in law's badly vandalized car. However I'm finding these later posts very interesting and am enjoying reading them, thank you Richard.

However I've only had a quick read through of this and am now in the "digesting" stage. There is one thing which causes me concern though. koalar is telling us here that these cars have high strength steel bottom arms - not like our cast arms on the 169 mode, which of course, it would be foolish to try to weld to. I go on to read that, if I've understood correctly, you have welded brackets to these high strength steel arms? Now that makes me worry for you because welding high strength steels has to be done under very controlled conditions otherwise the resulting weld will be brittle. I've had experience of this when attempting to MIG weld repair patches into body/chassis sections which, unknown to me, were HS steel. All looked fine when done but started cracking along the edges of the welds less than a year later. Scared me so much I wouldn't now consider welding repairs on anything remotely modern - which is just as well as I'm really too old for the physical jerks necessary any more.

 

[koalar]

thank you Richard.

However I've only had a quick read through of this and am now in the "digesting" stage. There is one thing which causes me concern though. koalar is telling us here that these cars have high strength steel bottom arms

I’d be surprised if arms bought of ebay are made from the same ultra high strength material, but that’s a conversation for the post 2012 section

Sounds to me like the arms are now part of the occupants safety.

I just cut and pasted from the press release there is other interesting information in there

Unfortunately they don’t specify what they are made from or if they are heat treated.

NEW FIAT PANDA: ITALIAN STYLE, UNIVERSAL APPEAL

The third generation Fiat Panda, Europe's best-selling supermini, is bigger, roomier, safer and more fuel efficient than its predecessors.

www.media.stellantis.com

 

[dastardly2023]

The fidgety weird steering has already caused me two potentially lethal off road incidents .. I may be 78 years old but my 1980 Donnington GT championship winning abilities are continuing to keep me safe . I would much prefer for Fiat to address their weird Fidgety steering and come up with an acceptable answer . One only has to look at the anti roll bar links connection on the Fiat Ducato .No lugs needing welding just a hole in the lower control arm and a rubber bush . No welding. no lectures . I have proved a point, and am happy to accept any cracked welds which may or may not happen . THe Lancia Musa has Fiat panda underpinnings and the anti roll b ar loads are fed directly into the lower control arm .. Not the steering A stupid lug welded onto the side of the Macpherson strut .

 

[chris3234]

The fidgety weird steering has already caused me two potentially lethal off road incidents .. I may be 78 years old but my 1980 Donnington GT championship winning abilities are continuing to keep me safe . I would much prefer for Fiat to address their weird Fidgety steering and come up with an acceptable answer . One only has to look at the anti roll bar links connection on the Fiat Ducato .No lugs needing welding just a hole in the lower control arm and a rubber bush . No welding. no lectures . I have proved a point, and am happy to accept any cracked welds which may or may not happen . THe Lancia Musa has Fiat panda underpinnings and the anti roll b ar loads are fed directly into the lower control arm .. Not the steering A stupid lug welded onto the side of the Macpherson strut .

A lug on the strut is fine for most cars with this type of suspension

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Maybe something to bear in mind here, regardless of the improvement in handling or possible problems with welding high strength steels or whatever, is that this is a non standard modification to the vehicle which is probably going to render a standard insurance policy invalid. So if an accident occurs, quite possibly with the fault being the other party, a whole barrel of worms will be opened up?

 

[jrkitching]

Maybe something to bear in mind here, regardless of the improvement in handling or possible problems with welding high strength steels or whatever, is that this is a non standard modification to the vehicle which is probably going to render a standard insurance policy invalid. So if an accident occurs, quite possibly with the fault being the other party, a whole barrel of worms will be opened up?

Indeed it might, at least in the UK. If you were involved in an accident in which someone was killed, and your insurance company invalidated your insurance on account of the modification, then the offence would be "causing death by driving: unlicensed, disqualified or uninsured drivers".

Maximum sentence is two years imprisonment.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Indeed it might, at least in the UK. If you were involved in an accident in which someone was killed, and your insurance company invalidated your insurance on account of the modification, then the offence would be "causing death by driving: unlicensed, disqualified or uninsured drivers".

Maximum sentence is two years imprisonment.

Ouch! and a criminal conviction to dog you for years?