Technical Subframe Rot

[Mire Mare]

My 07 4x4 Panda developed a knock under relatively low lateral forces when cornering. Looking underneath revealed the horror show in the photos. I think that's the subframe? So, is a new one, or one from a breaker, required? Are these 4x4 specific? Cheers

 

[DaveMcT]

From the Forum linked Eper parts catalogue.
Standard Panda rear axle

44305/01 - REAR SUSPENSION

FIAT NUOVA PANDA (2003-2009)

eper.fiatforum.com

4x4 rear axle

44305/02 - REAR SUSPENSION

FIAT NUOVA PANDA (2003-2009)

eper.fiatforum.com

It looks like a LOT of work is needed to save that axle. I think you are looking at scrap car parts but even then, probably a fair bit of welding reinforcement to make sure even they don't fail. That said a split tube could be fitted over the existing tube to carry a new ARB mounting point. tack weld it under the car to use later as a datum point. Then you can clean everything and weld in new metal knowing it will line up when you put it back.

Get everything hot zinc metal sprayed and it will outlast the Titanic.

 

[jrkitching]

Sadly we've seen quite a few posts on this subject recently; I guess the fleet is getting to the age where this sort of failure is all too common.

The rear beam is specific to the 4x4. I don't think OEM parts are still available, at least not from the UK, and even if they are, the price is eyewatering.

I have found this from continental Europe. No idea if they'd ship to the UK, but by the time shipping charges & import taxes are included, just the cost of this part alone will be more than your car is worth.

Aftermarket beams are available for the 1.1/1.2 Panda 169's at sensible prices, and these will no doubt save a lot of cars that would otherwise be scrapped. Unfortunately, there's no such option for the 4x4. Secondhand rear beams for the 4x4 are rare as hen's teeth, and even if you can find one, it will likely be little better and ridiculously priced.

It's a great shame that we can't interest one of the aftermarket axle companies in manufacturing these.

Given the current parts supply situation, I doubt that it's possible your car can be economically repaired.

 

[Mire Mare]

Thanks for the replies, guys. I'll have to ponder the future of the Panda. The prognosis isn't looking particularly good

 

[koalar]

Thanks for the replies, guys. I'll have to ponder the future of the Panda. The prognosis isn't looking particularly good

You could emailing a request to a breaker network.. No idea how much they would charge though.

They contact lots of breaker around the county to see if anyone has one save you endlessly phoning around

I can't recommend any as I have always found everything locally. This is just the First Google found https://www.breakerlink.com/

 

[DaveMcT]

I still think its possible to save the old axle. Some areas will be a mess (clearly) others will not be bad at all. Worst case, use it as a pattern for new parts. Part (1) in the image below, is mostly steel tube. Those ends can be made from 3mm wall pipe (thicker than original and easier to weld).

This image shows how the ARB (Anti Roll Bar) mounts to the underframe. The issue is getting the new tube ends to align with the car. But after that, the ARB brackets can be tacked in place and welded off the car. Considerable work and not viable at garage rates but a DIY who can weld could sort this.

 

[Yolanda]

Wow Thats excessive corrosion. Has the car been driven through sea water.

 

[koalar]

Wow Thats excessive corrosion. Has the car been driven through sea water.

I think they are just getting to that age


second in as many weeks.

 

[DaveMcT]

Another thought about repairs. It's highly likely that the rusted tube (which carries the ARB) is a central straight section with a kick-up at each end. The mounting bolts will go though sleeves welded into the ends of the structural cross tube. Making a new cross tube and welding it to the middle plate would not be complicated and far easier than trying to repair the badly rusted original part.

 

[dragonwagon]

Any decent metal fabricating shop with pipe bending equipment could easily reproduce that subframe section for you. It might be a reasonably expensive exercise by the time you dismantle and reassemble everything but it will let you keep the car running.

 

[koalar]

Any decent metal fabricating shop with pipe bending equipment could easily reproduce that subframe section for you. It might be a reasonably expensive exercise by the time you dismantle and reassemble everything but it will let you keep the car running.

unfortunately here in the UK a fabricator is going to charge hundreds. A flat plate welded over the top of a sill is normally £50+vat

maybe other countries it would be a viable option

Unless you have a friend that will keep it off the books with a little cash under the table

 

[MrMagoo]

Send a message to UK Panda 4x4 on YouTube, they may be able to help.

 

[judderbar]

A flat plate welded over the top of a sill is normally £50+vat

That sounds very cheap. What length of flat plate do you get welded? surely not for the whole sill? And presumably only spot welded?

 

[koalar]

That sounds very cheap. What length of flat plate do you get welded? surely not for the whole sill? And presumably only spot welded?

That’s the patch for the rot in the rear sill. About 8” square. If you look at 2005 and older cars in the street a lot are done this way. Normally just painted black. That the going rate here in Cheshire normally plus vat. If you know it’s there and book the work to be done at the same time at a garage you know it’s just the MOT plus £50

 

[judderbar]

I suppose that must be very similar to this repair on my car?

Welding rear sill and wheel arch | FIAT Punto (Mk2/2b)

www.fiatforum.com

50 quid repair?

I am embarrassed to tell you how long and how much money I spent to repair that myself!

 

[koalar]

I suppose that must be very similar to this repair on my car?

Welding rear sill and wheel arch | FIAT Punto (Mk2/2b)

www.fiatforum.com

50 quid repair?

I am embarrassed to tell you how long and how much money I spent to repair that myself!

yes but its much easier on the panda, generally they rot a few inches forwards of the arch so only a flat plate needed. When done they aren't pretty. There's a change in the MOT. they have to be continuous seam welded. When finished they just leave the weld and paint in Black underseal.

if you see a Panda 05 or older look about 4" from the rear wheel arch. Shed loads are done this way. Its really low down almost underneath which is why its not that noticeable that there's a black patch

some hide it by painting the whole of the bottom of the sill Black to blend it in

 

[mj2k]

I suppose that must be very similar to this repair on my car?

Welding rear sill and wheel arch | FIAT Punto (Mk2/2b)

www.fiatforum.com

50 quid repair?

I am embarrassed to tell you how long and how much money I spent to repair that myself!

Wow, that's very similar to the sort of rot repair you have to do on the 'rustproof' Alfa 916 GTV and 147/156/GT (which are based on the Mk1 Tipo floorpan); I suspect the galvanizing on them is a bit iffy, but it's allegedly better on the Panda / 500. Hopefully it is, otherwise we're all going to be busy in a few years...

('rust proof' 156's inner sill):

 

[judderbar]

Wow, that's very similar to the sort of rot repair you have to do on the 'rustproof' Alfa 916 GTV and 147/156/GT (which are based on the Mk1 Tipo floorpan); I suspect the galvanizing on them is a bit iffy, but it's allegedly better on the Panda / 500. Hopefully it is, otherwise we're all going to be busy in a few years...

('rust proof' 156's inner sill):

but annoyingly i dont have a single bit of rusting inside the car. No bubbling, nothing. The sills being another story. I have put oil and grease in there after the wax oil seemed to hide the problem. Bit of a mission with the endoscope and inspection holes to scrape away the rubbish inside. Given the inside i was thinking i could keep the car for ever.

 

[vexorg]

unfortunately here in the UK a fabricator is going to charge hundreds. A flat plate welded over the top of a sill is normally £50+vat

Is that even legal in the UK, it's changing a major component to something that has has no testing

 

[DaveMcT]

Is that even legal in the UK, it's changing a major component to something that has has no testing

Repairs are legal but would have to be done to at least the same standard as original. Patch plates must be welded all the way around.

This part of the 4x4 would not be difficult to replace with brand new tube end to end. Patching is not an option. It needs a new cross tube making to the same shape as original and welding to the original centre piece.

Repairs that just patch over that rusty wreck might pass MoT (if you can't push a screwdriver through) but it will fail again as the old metal will continue to rot.