General Help, Big Repair bill...

[Digi Dreamer]

Hi, needing urgent advice,

Sump collapsed, metal moths been busy,, Garage has quoted a 2000-pound repair bill to replace the VVT pulley, Oil Pick up and pump, Sump,

the cars a 2014 panda 1.2 pop, stalled turning a corner, car began to run rough, had grounded on a speed hump a few days earlier. last oil check about 1 month ago, minor top up.

no oil warning light came on.

thought the cam belt had slipped, cars only done 37000 miles drove a few miles home watching for the oil light, took 2 ltrs of oil when i got home, had a P0016 fault code, now cleared

the garage retimed the cam belt, said the VVT ran dry. engine runs smooth but fast

what are my options, hoping just a new sump and VVT pulley. how can i test the old pulley

got 3 days till my MOT runs out, and which timing tools do i need to replace the pulley.
any advice?

 

[Digi Dreamer]

The garage adjusted the belt, said it was a couple of teeth out, they said that it was caused by the VVT pulley being faulty due to the pulley ran dry and the oil sump was pouring out of the sump, then gave me the list of what needed replaced, and without the pulley being replaced it would fail the emissions for the up-and-coming MOT, since i got it back, reset the codes and the P0016 has stayed away. as it was being handed back, they refitted the original belt.

 

[koalar]

The garage adjusted the belt, said it was a couple of teeth out, they said that it was caused by the VVT pulley being faulty due to the pulley ran dry and the oil sump was pouring out of the sump, then gave me the list of what needed replaced, and without the pulley being replaced it would fail the emissions for the up-and-coming MOT, since i got it back, rest the codes and the P0016 has stayed away. as it was being handed back, they refitted the original belt.

Makes no sense at all in my tiny brain

No engine check light the the VVT is working

Everything timed correctly will not cause the emissions going to fail

No oil warning light, the VVT hasn’t run dry

The VVT uses oil pressure to advance the camshaft only a few degrees. It doesn’t run in oil

Faulty VVT clunking noise, engine light, lack of top end power, fluctuating idled probably missed a few (I think it effects under load) but as far as I know nothing close to what you have

Maybe someone could point out something obvious I am missing

But it sounds to me like an inflated garage job.

Of course I could be wrong

 

[Digi Dreamer]

Makes no sense at all in my tiny brain

No engine check light the the VVT is working

Everything timed correctly will not cause the emissions going to fail

No oil warning light, the VVT hasn’t run dry

The VVT uses oil pressure to advance the camshaft only a few degrees. It doesn’t run in oil

Faulty VVT clunking noise, engine light, lack of top end power, fluctuating idled probably missed a few (I think it effects under load) but as far as I know nothing close to what you have

Maybe someone could point out something obvious I am missing

But it sounds to me like an inflated garage job.

Of course I could be wrong

i did have to put in 2 ltrs after it happened, oil probably somewhere on the A82, could my first thought be right, can belt jumped during stall and bump start, bad enough tough

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

Come back to an earlier comment: you said 'oil light didn't come on', and you 'put two litres of oil in'

The oil pressure light will only light when there is (basically) no oil pressure at all, and that only happens when the sump is empty. It is not a 'warning of low oil needing a top up'. Its curtains! If you put two litres in, then there was still nearly litre or so in the works - so the light shouldn't come on. Generally speaking, if the oil light comes on when an engine's running, then its dead - beyond repair, kaput - and (unless you were creeping in traffic at the time) seized. That's one light you hope never ever to see light up (except when the key is first turned).

As to a cam belt 'jumping a couple of teeth' - that too sounds very very unlikely. Unless the belt is completely worn and the tensioner or water pump bearings are failing (leading to a loose belt), that seems to be (to use the technical expression), bol**cks from a garage who are out to make a quick buck. At 37000 miles the belt s a long way off needing replacement and (especially if they were happy to fit the same belt back) should still be in good health. If the engine timing was not right and so the engine couldn't run properly, then the engine warning light would have been on, quick as a flash.

Bump-starting any modern car (basically anything with fuel injection) is not recommended - the handbook for any car will tell you not to try this. But that's mainly because you can't develop the pressure needed in the fuel system to get teh injection to work properly and then run the risk (as I understand it) of affecting the catalyst through over or under fuelling. But could a bump start really displace toothed timing belt? I'd be surprised.

A new sump is £30 (I know Fiat say £300, but Shop4Parts list at 92% reduction, for £26 plus VAT https://www.shop4parts.co.uk/?name=store&op=Product&ProdID=1238. That either means a timing pulley and oil pick-up are gold pated, or the mechanics rates are higher than private dentists.

I've not seen the car, don't fully understand how variable valve timing works (I had a 1.2 for many years but an older, non-VVT version), nor seen the sump. But this all sounds a bit like someone being 'led astray' by a garage in the hope of making a quick buck. I hope I'm proved wrong here.

And I hope you are able to reclaim some of that expense.

 

[koalar]

Reading through again

no pools of oil where i parky, garage said it was pouring of sump,

I have doubts at what’s you have been told

There should be plenty of evidence of oil on the ground if the hole is at the bottom due to hitting a speed bump and its pouring out

Not sure where this is going. Maybe a second opinion is required from another garage

Or post some pictures of the sump leak

 

[Panda IIs]

Come back to an earlier comment: you said 'oil light didn't come on', and you 'put two litres of oil in'

The oil pressure light will only light when there is (basically) no oil pressure at all, and that only happens when the sump is empty. It is not a 'warning of low oil needing a top up'. Its curtains! If you put two litres in, then there was still nearly litre or so in the works - so the light shouldn't come on. Generally speaking, if the oil light comes on when an engine's running, then its dead - beyond repair, kaput - and (unless you were creeping in traffic at the time) seized. That's one light you hope never ever to see light up (except when the key is first turned).

As to a cam belt 'jumping a couple of teeth' - that too sounds very very unlikely. Unless the belt is completely worn and the tensioner or water pump bearings are failing (leading to a loose belt), that seems to be (to use the technical expression), bol**cks from a garage who are out to make a quick buck. At 37000 miles the belt s a long way off needing replacement and (especially if they were happy to fit the same belt back) should still be in good health. If the engine timing was not right and so the engine couldn't run properly, then the engine warning light would have been on, quick as a flash.

Bump-starting any modern car (basically anything with fuel injection) is not recommended - the handbook for any car will tell you not to try this. But that's mainly because you can't develop the pressure needed in the fuel system to get teh injection to work properly and then run the risk (as I understand it) of affecting the catalyst through over or under fuelling. But could a bump start really displace toothed timing belt? I'd be surprised..

A new sump is £30 (I know Fiat say £300, but Shop4Parts list at 92% reduction, for £26 plus VAT https://www.shop4parts.co.uk/?name=store&op=Product&ProdID=1238. That either means a timing pulley and oil pick-up are gold pated, or the mechanics rates are higher than private dentists.

I've not seen the car, don't fully understand how variable valve timing works (I had a 1.2 for many years but an older, non-VVT version), nor seen the sump. But this all sounds a bit like someone being 'led astray' by a garage in the hope of making a quick buck. I hope I'm proved wrong here.

And I hope you are able to reclaim some of that expense.

Can't disagree with any of this (other than at 8 years old I'd be replacing the belt on the basis of age regardless of mileage - you would probably think twice about using tyres that old??). I'm always amused by the notion of timing belts "jumping a tooth or two", as stated this is pretty much physically impossible unless the water pump or tensioner has gone west.

I can see a bill of £2000 is feasible since you will be charged full retail price on parts (witness the cost of the sump from Shop4Parts above) plus VAT on that. With oil pump VVT etc and add in some labour - there you go.

 

[eeeno]

Is this the car's very first cambelt? It should be its second belt now and just to be safe it needs a new tensioner and a new water pump too.

The car just needs a little TLC. Probably no significant faults just a worn cambelt, tensioner etc. The car stalled because the timing became erratic due to worn cambelt or tensioner. Bright side is that there's probably no significant engine damage.

 

[Digi Dreamer]

ok, sump off, new one ready to go on, weather permitting, everything went wrong, 10 days off for covid etc. spent 2 days trying to separate the sump from the block,

need to drill out the 2 exhaust studs on the pipe.

would all a lot easier with ramps but one can dream

 

[Digi Dreamer]

ok, sump done started first turn of the key, roaring like a hot-rod, just have to drill out the 2 bolts on the exhaust flange underneath

thanks e1

 

[Digi Dreamer]

Ok, Taxed and tested, just the timing belt to change

 

[vexorg]

Glad I done the belt and sump on our 1.2 recently.

I'm not understanding something here. You say the sump collapsed, as in burst or you hit something?
Then usually oil failure is terminal for the bearings, not the timing belt, how does loss of oil causse the timing belt to jump?

 

[koalar]

Very hard to know which bits are correct when the original garage wanted to charge £2,000. I have doubts the belt ever slipped 2 teeth. This car goes into a limp mode if one tooth out.

We only know the sump was damaged on a speed hump and needed 2 litres of oil

The oil light never noticed to have came on

And there’s been a P0016 while turning a corner

I suspect the car turn the corner a briefly starved the VVT of oil throwing the code

I doubt there would be any other damage other than the sump

 

[Digi Dreamer]

i think the 2 issues may not have been connected directly,

8 year old stretched belt could have jumped during the stall and bump start (i know you shouldn't), which caused me to recheck the oil (which was checked a few weeks earlier, needed topped up then)

low oil, the vvt didn't correct it's self after the oil was topped up,

only shadow left, could the belt jump have been caused by a partial seizure on the cam due to low oil or cam and crank trying to go at different speeds due to inertia during the stall (Crank trying to stop dead with low road speed Kangarooing).

 

[Digi Dreamer]

Just a note, changed the air filter during the reassembly, had written on it "checked 9/17", only owned it 2 years, the place i bought it said they'd serviced it before i collected it and it's a 64 plate, even big dealers can't be trusted.

 

[koalar]

i think the 2 issues may not have been connected directly,

8 year old stretched belt could have jumped during the stall and bump start (i know you shouldn't), which caused me to recheck the oil (which was checked a few weeks earlier, needed topped up then)

low oil, the vvt didn't correct it's self after the oil was topped up,

only shadow left, could the belt jump have been caused by a partial seizure on the cam due to low oil or cam and crank trying to go at different speeds due to inertia during the stall (Crank trying to stop dead with low road speed Kangarooing).

It not a self clearing code has to be done be software

These cars have a crank and cam sensor

I haven’t tried every combination 1 tooth retarded, 2 teeth advanced and so on

But one tooth advanced start and sounds fine. Even drives fine to move the car. But it will not rev at all. The two sensors spot the mismatch and limit the revs.

I maybe wrong but I have doubts what you was told is correct.

In fact when you come to change the belt. If you use the cam locking tool you should be able to tell us if the cam covers have been off

 

[Digi Dreamer]

ran ok when they had "adjusted" the cam, had to wait several days for them to get the right tools tough, mpg's seem to have dropped a little, cleared the codes with a elm127 gadget

 

[Digi Dreamer]

wasn't so much low revs more like a misfire, running rough, I'm hoping they've been off, will make my life easier

 

[Digi Dreamer]

Ok, Belt done, 4 hrs.. started first time with no errors, would have killed for a 15mm Socket..

 

[Digi Dreamer]

still leaking from sump seal, don't want to have to cut it all off again, any leak stop additives recommended? probably only works on seals not sealing compounds, looks like it's going back to a garage..

 

[Leroypanda]

Either hylomar blue or tiger seal.