Have VAG totally lost the plot?

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Have VAG totally lost the plot?

Cars today are considerably cleaner and more efficient than 30 yers ago when catalysts first came in. But for goodness sake, 30 years is a very long time. The improvements (such as they are) are frankly a joke. All we have ever got manufacturers just about meeting the demands of regulations and nothing more. It's a scam if nothing else.

Tesla gets a lot of stick but they are at least showing the legacy car makers how to make highly efficient cars and make healthy profits into the bargain. Brakes hardly get used so there's minimal wear. Tyres seem to last better, and energy costs are equivalent to 150 miles per gallon. Costs of their cars will come down and VW et al are running scared. Ford's effort (Mustang EV) costs them $20,000 per every one they sell. VW ID are are getting sent back due to the terrible software.
 
I did hear that tesla are looking to introduce a more basic electric car at about $20000 by using a new lighter battery connection system reducing weight by 10% hence giving 14% greater range for the same battery spec, likely to have a range of less than 200km between charges but for most of us that would work well alongside a larger ICE vehicle for longer hauls.

Tim
 
Tesla gets a lot of stick but they are at least showing the legacy car makers how to make highly efficient cars and make healthy profits into the bargain. Brakes hardly get used so there's minimal wear. Tyres seem to last better, and energy costs are equivalent to 150 miles per gallon. Costs of their cars will come down and VW et al are running scared. Ford's effort (Mustang EV) costs them $20,000 per every one they sell. VW ID are are getting sent back due to the terrible software.
This isn’t quite fair. Tesla have spent years pouring money down a drain to get to where they are now, and not without their fair share of controversy either, I think they recalled something like 4million cars in 2022 alone.

The real test will be the next couple of years as the Model S is well passed renewal as an 11 year old car. The model X is 8 years old this year. The model 3 is 5 years old. And the model Y is 3 years old.

While other manufacturers are good at releasing a new car and immediately starting work on its replacement understanding the money and time involved in releasing a new car model, Tesla have so far only managed to work on one new model at a time, and shown no indication they are working on replacements for aging models.
Musk has lost the plot and is too busy screwing up twitter and the Tesla share price has dropped significantly and is trading at half of what is was a year ago despite record profits and revenue.
 
Tesla "Recalls" were corrected within days by over the air updates. NHTSA were complaining yet the fix was already done.

Tesla models are constantly updated. Model Y today is not the same as one from two years ago. Cast chassis under frames and structural batteries for example. Body styles have not changed but they are still selling everything they can make, so buyers are clearly not worried. Tesla does not do the new model sales pitch which makes older cars lose value. They constantly improve the cars and the software. Nobody else does this.

Obviously, they have spent $Billions but that's what it takes to compete in the motor industry. The issue is that nobody is capable of making anything that competes with the Model S from five years ago. The Ford Mach E Mustang is not even that good. GM have sold next to no EVs this last year and their previous offerings were prone to spontaneous combustion.

The (so called) competition to Tesla cars is a huge embarrassment for the industry.

Company share prices and the the actual company are not the same things. Musk doesn't care about the share price. Why should he? He has a massive moat of cash and no need to borrow money by rights issues. The shares will bounce all over the shop like any growth company. Take a long term view and all will be well. Anyone worrying about the day to day values of Tesla shares (or even year to year values) should not be owning Tesla shares.
 
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Constant improvements are great.. until you want a part for an 18 month old model

Nobody will have one in stock..so vehicle potentially laid up for 2 weeks

Chatted to somebody a couple of years ago whose Korean vehicle developed a major fault.. Cracked Exhaust manifold or similar.. within warranty

No UK stock...a delay

No European stock..more delay

6 months on the factory were making a new replacement based on the vehicles I.D.

He did have the use of a crap runabout on loan from the dealer..

But it wasnt the £50k car he had purchased
 
Tesla "Recalls" were corrected within days by over the air updates. NHTSA were complaining yet the fix was already done.
Its more the reason for the Recalls and the associated bad press. Multiple deaths from people using auto driving features has taken its toll on the reputation of the company.
Tesla models are constantly updated. Model Y today is not the same as one from two years ago. Cast chassis under frames and structural batteries for example. Body styles have not changed but they are still selling everything they can make, so buyers are clearly not worried. Tesla does not do the new model sales pitch which makes older cars lose value. They constantly improve the cars and the software. Nobody else does this.
I seem to remember the Model Y has been plagued with manufacturing problems and the need for subsequent updates and engineering changes.
As noted above though, all companies constantly Update their models while in production, though at 11 years old the Model S is really only outdated by the Fiat 500 at this point, and even that had a facelift in 2016. The Model Y has a reputation amongst owners for very poor quality control. Actually Tesla Quality control in general is lacking.
Obviously, they have spent $Billions but that's what it takes to compete in the motor industry.
Yes, well that goes without saying, you're not going to build a mass market car with a start up loan from Barclays Bank. but the point here, is that any money Tesla is making now, is owed to investors going back many years. Many many years of losses. The money they have to spend on paying off past debts means they don't have huge amounts of available cash for R&D for new models.


The Ford Mach E Mustang is not even that good. GM have sold next to no EVs this last year and their previous offerings were prone to spontaneous combustion.
I am pretty sure Tesla has had its fair share of burning cars and bad press. You can't buy into the bad press for one company while ignoring it for another.
The (so called) competition to Tesla cars is a huge embarrassment for the industry.
If this were true then why is Tesla's share of the EV market dropping so rapidly?

Company share prices and the the actual company are not the same things. Musk doesn't care about the share price. Why should he? He has a massive moat of cash and no need to borrow money by rights issues. The shares will bounce all over the shop like any growth company. Take a long term view and all will be well. Anyone worrying about the day to day values of Tesla shares (or even year to year values) should not be owning Tesla shares.
Enough of the Musk Fan-boying, I am a share holder (thankfully not much) but I do know people who have likely lost a huge amount of money because of Tesla not delivering.

The Share price is a good index of investors faith in the company. and the losses over the last year show that the faith that investors had has dropped massively. Musk doesn't worry about money because almost everything he needs to pay for, comes out of business expenses. He had to liquidate a huge amount of money by selling off shares about $40Bn in 2022 to help fund his twitter take over and that $44Bn he spent on Twitter is now rumored to be worth half that if he's lucky. So I suspect he probably does care about share prices.

Don't get me wrong Tesla have spent years making a reasonably good product but quality issues have plagued production. While they have done reasonably well by being the only player on an otherwise empty field for the last 12 years. Their market share has been massively eroded, there prices undercut and reputation has suffered.

At this point they need to be innovating to keep their crown and not just churning out bland looking cars That have seen no significant style update since the first model - S went on sale.

Actually one of the biggest barriers to their reputation now is Musk and the association of "owning a Tesla" being that person who "Owns a Tesla" They need new models to "grow up" as a company and attract a new type of customer who isn't a Californian Frat-boy or the most boring man at the party who over uses "well actually" in every conversation.
 
If this were true then why is Tesla's share of the EV market dropping so rapidly?
If you've driven a Tesla, or more than one, it will be apparent that almost none of the controls operate like a 'normal' car. A glaring example is the wiper switch - there isn't one. You get a button on the end of the indicator stalk, for flick wipe and wash. Otherwise, you are expected to leave it on auto, which can be a problem if you catch a bug on the sensor on a dry day. Turning off the wipers means finding the tiny icon at the base of the screen, then selecting 'off' from the resulting screen, which is one small part of a huge display. Not safe at 70mph on a busy motorway.

An electric car from any other manufacturer, looks and feels like a car from that manufacturer. I've met two owners now who have no idea how it works, and don't care, they just drive it as normal, and plug it in when the 'fuel gauge' says low. Hop out of a current Golf, and into an ID.3, and all is familiar.

The Tesla is for technophiles. Ordinary, unenthusiastic, drivers, will struggle with it. There is a limited supply of technophiles with enough money to buy a Tesla, so demand will reach a peak, then plateau.

An ID.3, Kia Niro electric, MINI electric, etc, are cars, powered by electricity. A Tesla is a smartphone with wheels.
 
If you've driven a Tesla, or more than one, it will be apparent that almost none of the controls operate like a 'normal' car. A glaring example is the wiper switch - there isn't one. You get a button on the end of the indicator stalk, for flick wipe and wash. Otherwise, you are expected to leave it on auto, which can be a problem if you catch a bug on the sensor on a dry day. Turning off the wipers means finding the tiny icon at the base of the screen, then selecting 'off' from the resulting screen, which is one small part of a huge display. Not safe at 70mph on a busy motorway.
10+ years ago when cars where still majoratively buttons and dials, along came these new cars with electric motors and batteries that cost next to nothing to run and had these huge touch screens in them that could do anything....

People where understandably wow'ed by this new and previously unseen technology.
But as you rightly say Teslas are a smart phone with wheels. They are designed around the touch screen and common sense goes out the window.

So now while other manufacturers have moved to touchscreens many have realized the limitations and dialed back the use of touch screens and again include buttons and dials for essential functions like the heating controls and other regularly used controls as well as dash displays. for safety purposes and ease of access.

The Model 3 speedo is on the top corner of the touch screen, there is no separate dash display for driver information.
Bright glaring displays are not great in the middle of the night when driving long distances.

While tesla did a lot of new and imaginative things there was a lot of stuff that the industry looked at and said "yeeeeah.... we're not doing that"

A lot of the stupid stuff like the glove box and air vents all being controlled by the touch screen was a pipe dream of musk that you could remotely lend your car out like a self driving taxi to other people while you were not using it, and you could use these locks and tech to set everything back to how you want it when you were in the car, or you could lock the user out of the glove box or boot to keep your personal items safe. 5 years on and no one is using this stuff but owners are still paying for completely unnecessary functions.

Tesla and Musk Fanboys put up with limitations and crap just for bragging rights and to feel like they are closer to their idol, because they bought his car.
 
Tesla, a good idea ruined by an egomaniacal narcissist…selling his cars at a loss to kill off competition, as you say, making it much more complicated than it has to be and seemingly doesn’t care!
As for being like a smartphone, mostly they’re intuitive, teslas aren’t and, judging by the US, a barbecue waiting to happen
 
Tesla, a good idea ruined by an egomaniacal narcissist…selling his cars at a loss to kill off competition, as you say, making it much more complicated than it has to be and seemingly doesn’t care!
As for being like a smartphone, mostly they’re intuitive, teslas aren’t and, judging by the US, a barbecue waiting to happen
I like them more than you do! But not a lot. They do a job and look smart but I agree not intuitive or comfortable. I think my lad had a model Y and my first comment after a ride out in it was that I'd much prefer to ride int eh back of my Panda as both the ride and seats are more comforatble. They have been the start for volume elctric car sales and I suppose thats been good. I do feel that they have failed to devlop the whole car or improve since the early ones. We had to ask a Tesla owner at the charge station to release us from teh charger. Im still not sure how he did it. I wanted to drive off and pull the plug out that way but apparently the car wont let you do this.....Now we know why!

There is no hope for older drivers if the idiots who design things insist on continuing down their stupid thoughtless design direction. I presume they are as thick and thougtless in their entire lives as they are in their professional capcity as designers. I hope they try cleaning a cement mixer while its still revolving.... that'll learn em.!
 
We had guests in our cabins that came from the north east, Alnwick, with a Tesla for which he enquired, at booking, if we had charging stations, we don’t (as we’d have to have another ‘line drop’ and bigger transformer…wehn we had the original line drop it was £18k and that was with us doing all the trenches and ground works) but he managed to get here and back on one charge! That’s 280m round trip so that’s impressive in real world driving!
He loved it but said it took 6mths just to get used to the controls and he still retains the car it was going to replace, a Skoda diesel estate, as the Tesla can’t tow his caravan, reduced tow weight and kills range. So his missus has a ‘runaround’ ev now as well.
It is the future, no doubt, but being radical for the sake of it just inspires me to discount musk’s products…to be fair to ‘innovation’ I’m also ditching the Jeep auto to use my manual panda as ‘I like to choose my own gear thankyou very much’ so I’m probably an old stick in the mud
 
The last point does it surely not depend what you're expecting?

While rapid charging points obviously are extremely power hungry. You can charge the thing off the 3 pin plug..if you're there a week and the only long journeys you've got planned are either end that may be sufficient, at least to get them back to the nearest rapid charger.

Market wise...the sooner everyone stops trying to be Tesla and builds relevant cars the better. Let's do 0-60 in 1 second..why though? Because Elon takes 1.5...oh right. How about fitting a smaller but more efficient motor and battery pack? Noooo powaaah! Also car needs to drive itself... why? Because...it just does..isn't this massively complex and expensive? Yes...is it opening us to all sorts of legal issues? Yes..but we must!!..looking at you Ford, VW group and Merc...
 
Body styles have not changed but they are still selling everything they can make, so buyers are clearly not worried. Tesla does not do the new model sales pitch which makes older cars lose value.
I forgot to point out that Tesla massively missed sales and delivery figures at the end of last year and slashed prices across the world to try and drive demand. In doing so they massively angered customers who had just bought new cars wiping thousands of pounds off the value of their new cars. This also had a massive impact on the share price and reputation of the company, no one wants to buy a car and find out they could have spent as much as £7,000 less if they had just ordered it the next day.
Market wise...the sooner everyone stops trying to be Tesla and builds relevant cars the better. Let's do 0-60 in 1 second..why though? Because Elon takes 1.5...oh right. How about fitting a smaller but more efficient motor and battery pack? Noooo powaaah! Also car needs to drive itself... why? Because...it just does..isn't this massively complex and expensive? Yes...is it opening us to all sorts of legal issues? Yes..but we must!!..looking at you Ford, VW group and Merc...
This is really where most other manufacturers are going. As this is a VAG thread to use the ID3 as an example, it's a boring as hell but that's what it needs to be, no hurtling from 0-60 in stupid times no unnecessary gadgets on a 32 inch touch screen normal car feel, normal layout in the controls. the forwards and backwards is easy to get the hang of. They are just a very "normal" car. I know there have been software issues but that can be said of tesla as well (hence all the recalls) VW are not trying to redefine the car or redesign the world just produce the sort of car that average joe wants to buy with an electric motor and battery, even the almighty Musk stated that the ID3 was "pretty good for a non-sporty electric car". and this is what the vast majority of cars need to be.
 
The last point does it surely not depend what you're expecting?

While rapid charging points obviously are extremely power hungry. You can charge the thing off the 3 pin plug..if you're there a week and the only long journeys you've got planned are either end that may be sufficient, at least to get them back to the nearest rapid charger.

Market wise...the sooner everyone stops trying to be Tesla and builds relevant cars the better. Let's do 0-60 in 1 second..why though? Because Elon takes 1.5...oh right. How about fitting a smaller but more efficient motor and battery pack? Noooo powaaah! Also car needs to drive itself... why? Because...it just does..isn't this massively complex and expensive? Yes...is it opening us to all sorts of legal issues? Yes..but we must!!..looking at you Ford, VW group and Merc...
The three pin thing would be great if we were classed as ‘domestic’, not even the farm is classed as domestic (which is why farmers got left out of all the help during Covid and the energy grants). Lots of farms, by their nature, are rural, so much of our supply comes from overhead rural networks (typically carrying three 11KW lines/cables).
You have two options for transformer type, 415 or 220/40. It’s always recommended to go big to future proof, and we did, the supply’s are then separated to run at 220/40. As soon as you have your supply you are classed as a ‘producer’ or supplier, this means we get electricity ever so slightly cheaper than domestic (2p) but not cheap like the pretend generator/supply companies get it (everyone from eon to octopus).
We have moorings with boats, on the canal, farm and associated buildings and holiday cabins each with supplies and meters (from Eon). All are on disparate parts of the farm so some have a view, some access to the water, and some that I can eff n blind on without upsetting anyone…so there’s a mass of underground cabling.
We’ve already had reviews of our capacity and we’re not far short (I want wind n solar but the national park and the nimbys don’t want their view spoiling). So, there’s no one sticking leads out of the cabin windows and running them to the car park to top up their batteries as that would be dangerous and, we’re not allowed to as, as it isn’t domestic, we would have to install the proper charging stations
 
This is really where most other manufacturers are going. As this is a VAG thread to use the ID3 as an example, it's a boring as hell but that's what it needs to be, no hurtling from 0-60 in stupid times no unnecessary gadgets on a 32 inch touch screen normal car feel, normal layout in the controls. the forwards and backwards is easy to get the hang of. They are just a very "normal" car. I know there have been software issues but that can be said of tesla as well (hence all the recalls) VW are not trying to redefine the car or redesign the world just produce the sort of car that average joe wants to buy with an electric motor and battery, even the almighty Musk stated that the ID3 was "pretty good for a non-sporty electric car". and this is what the vast majority of cars need to be.

But unfortunately only Elon could describe the interior of the current VW range with its capacitive buttons and low material quality as pretty good.

If they'd just built an electric golf with an interior similar to the old Mk7...it would have been a lot more popular.

They've been pretty badly burned with it and newer designs are rowing back on some of the issues people have with them.

In fact see the polo looky likey earlier in the thread..
 
But unfortunately only Elon could describe the interior of the current VW range with its capacitive buttons and low material quality as pretty good.

If they'd just built an electric golf with an interior similar to the old Mk7...it would have been a lot more popular.

They've been pretty badly burned with it and newer designs are rowing back on some of the issues people have with them.

In fact see the polo looky likey earlier in the thread..
Weather you like the buttons or not the quality fit and finish of the ID3 is pretty good, certainly no different in terms of quality to a mk7 golf.
 
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