Have VAG totally lost the plot?

[PuntoHowTo]

Either way it does seem to be using technology to create new problems by not actually thinking it through.

I think a lot of technology in cars creates new problems.

They’re an all in such a rush to bring things to market. Usually with software there is an evolutionary process of each new generation tweaks the old software to improve or create new function, but right now many of the main car manufacturers are having to build this software from scratch causing all the issues that keep cropping up.

 

[StevenRB45]

I think a lot of technology in cars creates new problems.

They’re an all in such a rush to bring things to market. Usually with software there is an evolutionary process of each new generation tweaks the old software to improve or create new function, but right now many of the main car manufacturers are having to build this software from scratch causing all the issues that keep cropping up.

But of all current manufacturers none of them manage to combine HMI fails, high price and low reliability in the same way.

You can see how much it's hurting them by the fact the getting the hell out as fast as they can from a lot of the decisions they've previously made. So the comment I made about haptics earlier is in fact balls, as following a little research it appears the Skoda has the new improved gen 2 software with physical steering wheel controls and a cruise control stalk that appears borrowed from a mk7 golf.

If we ignore the fact it needed towed away...it just sounds an incredibly frustrating vehicle to live with. It's neither Tesla nor legacy automaker in that the fancy software and hardware doesn't really work properly and it doesn't get the basic stuff that a legacy automaker should be able to do with it's eyes shut right either.

While they are busy faffing on with their ground up platform, Stellantis have just released the new battery and motor combo that brings their range within touching distance of what you can expect out of an ID but is more efficient energy wise..and all the basics are much better done having been built on an existing foundation.

The market doesn't wait...

 

[PuntoHowTo]

But of all current manufacturers none of them manage to combine HMI fails, high price and low reliability in the same way.

Are sure about that? Or is it just like anything and once the press have their teeth into something that’s all they report on?

Other manufacturers are having the same, and a whole host of other problems with software; they just don’t get the same coverage.

VW have gone from next to no investment in electric vehicles in 2015 to reorganizing the whole company with a focus on electric vehicles, They have build a platform focused on EVs and they are still very much in the middle of building this all up. You do still need to sell cars in the middle of this change so there are going to be failures and break downs, his is not just a VW(VAG) problem. All of the major manufacturers are facing software problems glitches and failures.

VAG gets the focus of the press because they are one of the biggest companies, they are a market leader and there is a certain amount of Schadenfreude attached to VW messing something up.

You also have to take into account that you are taking one persons view of one car and trying to paint that as the norm. It seems from the article it could actually be a hardware fault which could be easily and quickly repaired under warranty, then go on to provide decades of trouble free motoring.

This one article doesn't really show anything other than one car had a problem. Go find the news story where it says that all this model of car have the same fault.

I'm not saying that the car didn't brake down or that VW are without fault and the best in the world, just one car breaking down does not tell a story.
One mans use of the car tells you nothing about the software, could easily be he is allowing it to accelerate to 100mph through confirming something either through pressing a button or inaction when warned its going to do it.

The most complicated thing we had on a car 30 years ago was a choke and look how many people managed to screw that up, Now we have the most technologically advanced cars ever available, Companies who make cars not software are having to rapidly adapt and consumers who want all this stuff on their cars have literally no idea how to use it and zero interest in looking in a manual.

There is definitely a recipe for issues to develop, and both electronics and software to break down no matter who the manufacturer is.

 

[StevenRB45]

Of course all cars have issues..

But take my Friends new Golf 8 GTI...when it works it's annoying, it frequently doesn't and it was over 40k.

It's not that this is unique but never has anyone gone so far out of their way to annoy customers who've bought their vehicles by providing such a generous buffet of issues as the present range.

Although it may not be a recent phenomenon given his previous Audi TT was similarly reliable, but hey the interior was a lovely place to sit and wait for breakdown recovery.

 

[PuntoHowTo]

Of course all cars have issues..

But take my Friends new Golf 8 GTI...when it works it's annoying, it frequently doesn't and it was over 40k.

It's not that this is unique but never has anyone gone so far out of their way to annoy customers who've bought their vehicles by providing such a generous buffet of issues as the present range.

Although it may not be a recent phenomenon given his previous Audi TT was similarly reliable, but hey the interior was a lovely place to sit and wait for breakdown recovery.

Isn’t this the same guy you’ve said before seems to have an amazing ability to wreck any car he owns.

I could equally point out I’ve owned my golf got 7 years and the only issue I’ve had in that time was the recent issue with the aircon compressor, fixed for <£60

 

[StevenRB45]

Isn’t this the same guy you’ve said before seems to have an amazing ability to wreck any car he owns.

I could equally point out I’ve owned my golf got 7 years and the only issue I’ve had in that time was the recent issue with the aircon compressor, fixed for <£60

Your car is not in the current range...the Golf 6 was engineered pre-diesel gate fines and is largely carried over from the mk5.

If you can tell me a likely failure mode that would lead to a flywheel falling to bits and the clutch undamaged within 400 miles of delivery I'll accept it's a driving style thing.

In the same way I'll happily listen to how a fuel pump that occasionally doesn't work is a driving style thing..

Or how an electrical system that doesn't work is a driving style issue...

 

[PuntoHowTo]

If you can tell me a likely failure mode that would lead to a flywheel falling to bits and the clutch undamaged within 400 miles of delivery I'll accept it's a driving style thing.

The flywheel is almost certainly bought in from another manufacturer of parts, made in very much the same way as every other dual mass flywheel

If someone can kill such a solid, tried and tested part in such a short time, then there is no telling what else they’re doing to the car. If it was such a common problem we’d hear about it in the news for example the fiat electric power steering issue which dogged the company for years

Again this is one car in the millions made and does not set the rule

I could bring up the many times that you’ve pointed out cambelt issues with Citroens, you could argue that a major manufacturer should get something so basic right.
I could also point out that fly wheels, clutches and fuel pump issues are irrelevant on electric cars.

 

[StevenRB45]

All i'm going to say is he had a golf 6 previous..it didn't have a flywheel issue, he had an astra vxr that didn't have a flywheel issue, he had a fahkin Citroën AX...you'll never guess what? No it was fine as well.

All of it is poor QA and development..

 

[vexorg]

VAG gets the focus of the press because they are one of the biggest companies, they are a market leader and there is a certain amount of Schadenfreude attached to VW messing something up.

VW always push the quality and reliability aspects in their car, and the recent dieselgate severely put them in a bad light.

 

[PuntoHowTo]

VW always push the quality and reliability aspects in their car, and the recent dieselgate severely put them in a bad light.

Yet again VW were not the only company involved with this but the one everyone remembers and singles out.

Even Fiat were embroiled in the diesel gate scandal but people forget that.

VW learn from their mistakes, make a huge move towards electrifying there entire line up, people criticize them in getting the software right. Fiat have issue with their software... well that's just normal for Fiat so people don't make a fuss.


I'm not defending VW I would be fuming if I had paid £50k for the latest electric car only for it to repeatedly let me down and need to be towed away. But I will point out when people are letting their own bias in and attacking one brand while forgiving another that's doing the exact same thing.

Another major issue I take is with the 1 car experience. If I listened to everyone who had something bad to say about a car or manufacturer based on that one person they knew then I wouldn't buy anything as I have hear horror stories about every car brand at some point or another. In the millions of cars a company like VW make and hundreds of thousands of Mk8 golfs on the road, if they all or even if a large portion of them all had a fault with the flywheel it would be in the news. That 1 car experience of that one guy someone knows who bought a car and the engine exploded, are completely irrelevant. because they are not representative of any trend or common problem. They are one off instances related to that car. If someone said I had 20 friends who all had the same company car and they all needed the flywheel repairing, then I might take more notice. I will never take any notice of one person who knew one person who had a car that went wrong, and that's without even taking into account the Chinese whispers effect, or that the person telling the original story might be withholding vital information about how the problem arose, that might implicate their own bad driving or car care.

All i'm going to say is he had a golf 6 previous..it didn't have a flywheel issue, he had an astra vxr that didn't have a flywheel issue, he had a fahkin Citroën AX...you'll never guess what? No it was fine as well.

All of it is poor QA and development..

Did the Citroen AX have a Dual mass flywheel? no of course not and no one had flywheel issues before the advent of bloody dual mass flywheels.

Did the Astra or Golf VI have dual mass flywheels? probably? I don't know but then arguably he could have gotten lucky because all dual mass flywheels will fail at some point, they're basically considered a consumable item these days, often failing before the clutch wears out.

Do we know why the flywheel failed on the Golf VIII ? no other than knowing it did fail, other than knowing the mileage. All we know is it failed, but It would have been the same component put into thousands if not hundreds of thousands of other Golf VIIIs that did not fail so early. If this was a general rule we'd see Mk8 golfs littering the countryside and press reports about how common this problem is occurring with rows of them outside the dealerships waiting to be repaired, but non of this is happening. So 1 car experience is largely irrelevant.

Does any of this have anything to do with the software issues that all manufacturers are finding as they rush to bring new electric cars to market first?

No.

Car makers are not software companies but they are having to become software companies and they are struggling.

 

[StevenRB45]

Ok one car is not a trend...

However what it conspicuous in its absence in a list that includes a Vauxhall Astra...a Citroën C4 and a Toyota Corolla.

Also a Kia Ev6 and a BMW I3..

Best cars to own: Driver Power 2023 results | Auto Express

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Very few land rover products as well...almost like the they don't publish the bottom end of the list these days to protect ad revenue..

 

[PuntoHowTo]

Ok one car is not a trend...

However what it conspicuous in its absence in a list that includes a Vauxhall Astra...a Citroën C4 and a Toyota Corolla.

but doesn't include the Focus, Fiesta, Corsa or any Fiats. The list is missing many many cars.

 

[vexorg]

Did the Citroen AX have a Dual mass flywheel? no of course not and no one had flywheel issues before the advent of bloody dual mass flywheels.

I never saw the need for them, older cars coped without them, and gearboxes rarely died on more cars with more power from the 90's. My old vauxhall has the F28 in it, and on paper should be not as good as the 'superior' M32 fitted to later performance vauxhalls, yet the F28 rarely failed even with more power and torque put through it.

 

[StevenRB45]

Tbf all modern cars have dual mass, there's literally no way of killing a DMF in 400 miles that wouldn't lead to your warranty claim being laughed out the door...

All cars have issues, and all manufacturers make Friday cars (sure Jocks gearbox was a friday gearbox as was the flywheel..and the fuel pump wiring/ECU and the TT wiring loom/electrical system) I think that's a little bit galling to watch is a established manufacturer expecting the public to beta test their cars.

Even when they work the experience is no longer what it was. Golf 6 interior is nicer than a mk7 interior in terms of quality..and the 7 is nicer than the 8. The screens have got bigger but general quality is lower and screens themselves are a bit unfinished. That's the incorrect trajectory when the price is getting higher so yeah I am gonna point it out. It's not just the Golf, you can say the same for the range at large.

It's like early 2000s Merc at this point.

 

[PuntoHowTo]

I think that's a little bit galling to watch is a established manufacturer expecting the public to beta test their cars.

I totally agree but I think with the complexity of newer cars they are doing this more and more.

Obviously with the move to electric cars the mechanical complexity will come down, but they have got massively carried away with the electrical complexity.

They wouldn't take years to develop the software if they didn't do stuff like fancy lights such as the dynamic indicators, and Matrix LED headlamps with cameras to detect oncoming cars and selectively turn on and off lights to avoid dazzling oncoming cars. when not that long ago a bulb and a switch worked well. A stupid amount of R&D will have gone into that. let alone the touch screen with all its menus and settings.

The screens have got bigger but general quality is lower and screens themselves are a bit unfinished.

I really don't get why the touch screens are getting so big. I think some of the newer cars can have up to 12" touch screens, then they have the instrument clusters all represented on a large LCD display.
1. Its not really necessary, and
2. the R&D time and testing is massively increased. Not to mention the load on the electrical system.

I've been looking at getting an old range rover again, just because of the infinite practicality. after 2010/2011 they changed the instruments to a LCD display which I hadn't realized they did this so early on these cars. But looking around it seems they very quickly kill the battery as every time you open the door to get something out all the ECUs power up to drive the LCD dash, just so the mileage is visible without starting the car. do that a few times and the battery quickly runs low and the car won't start.
Apparently the best one to get is the 2007-2010 TDV8 where everything is much more analogue and its not so much as case of less to go wrong, so much as less to cause problems else where. i.e. complexity = unreliability.

 

[portland_bill]

I've been looking at getting an old range rover again, just because of the infinite practicality.

= unreliability.

You do realise don't you, any old Land Rover product is more of a hobby than transport. It'll need more regular 'care' than an old unloved Fiat, and everything is big, heavy, and cramped. (I'm so pleased that my brother has at last got tired of them, and got rid of the last one.)

 

[PuntoHowTo]

You do realise don't you, any old Land Rover product is more of a hobby than transport. It'll need more regular 'care' than an old unloved Fiat, and everything is big, heavy, and cramped. (I'm so pleased that my brother has at last got tired of them, and got rid of the last one.)

Oh god yes, that’s why it won’t be our daily driver.

I worked with a guy in circa 2004 who only ever bought new range rovers and proudly told me of all the countries he’d broken down in, while driving range rovers

 

[StevenRB45]

I really don't get why the touch screens are getting so big. I think some of the newer cars can have up to 12" touch screens, then they have the instrument clusters all represented on a large LCD display.
1. Its not really necessary, and
2. the R&D time and testing is massively increased. Not to mention the load on the electrical system.

I think like many things it's a case of if you release something with the same spec as it was..it's not progressing.

So even though people aren't sitting further and further away from the dash, if the previous gen car had an 8 inch screen this one needs 10 minimum and 12 as a paid upgrade.

See also, engine power, dimensions... equipment, tyre sizes, brakes etc. Etc.

Car I'm running round in is the same size as the one my dad had when I was my son's age. But at the time his car was about average whereas mine is one of the smaller you can still actually buy new.

It's just goal creep, it is however getting on for nonsensical when we're rapidly homing in on 3 tonne cars with 150kw of battery to move one person to and from the shops for some eggs in the name of going green.

The Rangie is the opposite of the Skoda that kicked this off. You'd get into it and be pleasantly surprised to find that today it is indeed working, and because it is it's a lovely experience.

Still think there's nothing quite as old money as a nicely looked after L322, in a dark colour without gangsta glass and 22s. That and the really crap ones are dead, and the ones that are still going will have been looked after...still a ticking bomb but a nice place to count down to the inevitable.

 

[portland_bill]

I think like many things it's a case of if you release something with the same spec as it was..it's not progressing.

So even though people aren't sitting further and further away from the dash, if the previous gen car had an 8 inch screen this one needs 10 minimum and 12 as a paid upgrade.

See also, engine power, dimensions... equipment, tyre sizes, brakes etc. Etc.

Car I'm running round in is the same size as the one my dad had when I was my son's age. But at the time his car was about average whereas mine is one of the smaller you can still actually buy new.

My 2015 Fabia, based on the same platform as Polo, is larger than the orginal Golf.

It's just goal creep, it is however getting on for nonsensical when we're rapidly homing in on 3 tonne cars with 150kw of battery to move one person to and from the shops for some eggs in the name of going green.

As most people go nowhere, we should all be trundling around on golf buggies.

The Rangie is the opposite of the Skoda that kicked this off. You'd get into it and be pleasantly surprised to find that today it is indeed working, and because it is it's a lovely experience.

Still think there's nothing quite as old money as a nicely looked after L322, in a dark colour without gangsta glass and 22s. That and the really crap ones are dead, and the ones that are still going will have been looked after...still a ticking bomb but a nice place to count down to the inevitable.

They are lovely, when working, and like you, I think the L322 is a good-looking car. There are, I believe, some major jobs that require the body to be lifted off the chassis, so a two-post hoist would be desirable. (I'd love one anyway, but I think neighbours, and local planning might object to one on the drive.)

 

[porta]

Having had three land rovers and a Range Rover vogue…it’s not ‘a hobby’ it’s pure masochism…but I know what you mean. lots of friends have them, and obviously the farmers round here, and they may take the urine out of my pandas, but then, I’m not fixing, repairing, cursing at them every two seconds