Have VAG totally lost the plot?

[AndyRKett]

If you look at speccing a commercial spec Ineos, you will see front and rear cross locks are an option and a manual centre locker is standard. As well an old school transfer case.

On a new Defender it will have all sorts that it would not be possible to delete in terms of off road aids.

The grenadier is a very impressive bit of kit, definitely on par with the old defender but has a whole host of extras making it even more versatile.
It’s very much the car the new defender should have been.
BMW straight 6s in diesel or petrol guise.

The new defender has no end of electronic gubbins such as water level detecting radar built into the windmirrors so you don’t wade too deeply, in the good old days a stick did the same job. There is no end of other driver assistance stuff once you are off road.
I think if you want to you can easily spenc one up to £150k

My father inlaw had an original defender bought brand new in circa 2001, this was also heavily spec’s up and still only tipped the scales at £30k so just goes to show how massively out of touch car makers have become in the last 20 years.

 

[StevenRB45]

If anything the BMW engine and gearbox are the items that stops people taking it seriously as a back to basics car.

If they'd stuck a Toyota Hilux D4D in it and a manual option...then it would have had significantly better credentials in terms of an expedition vehicle.

Obviously it wouldn't have been as nice...but no one wants to deal with BMW things in a bush somewhere the far side of nowhere. Never mind a Landrover that's having an electrical moment.

To be fair to them though..30k in 2001 is 53k and the Ineos in Commercial spec is 55k. While that's not specced up I bet you it's higher spec than the 30k defender was even at its lowest level.

May have to have a look and see if I can do a refresher...mainly to have a go

 

[chris3234]

The one with the terrible rating and viewing figures?


Frankly that sort of

Bring back old top gear where thye would look at proactical stuff too (pre clarkson trio)

Stuff is much better served by a magazine then a TV show

 

[AndyRKett]

Obviously it wouldn't have been as nice...but no one wants to deal with BMW things in a bush somewhere the far side of nowhere. Never mind a Landrover that's having an electrical moment.

Arguably the electrics will not be BMW and a whole redesign of wiring looms and ECUs will have taken place for the combination of engine and gearbox. The gearbox is a ZF 8 speed not a BMW gearbox.

Ironically the petrol engine is the same one used in the new Toyota Supra

Both engines are new post 2015 designs when BMW moved to a modular 500cc cylinder design across the whole range, these engines tend to be more reliable than older BMW designs where you only need look at them and they would break.

Non of us our Privy to what lead to that engine choice, I don't therefore think that you can categorically say that a Toyota engine would have been a better option. Toyota themselves are happy to use the petrol engine in a car that carries their badge....

 

[StevenRB45]

Non of us our Privy to what lead to that engine choice, I don't therefore think that you can categorically say that a Toyota engine would have been a better option. Toyota themselves are happy to use the petrol engine in a car that carries their badge....

They are, but not sure the Land Cruiser, Hilux and Supra have quite the same target audience.

Although I did read an article the day saying the Supra towed a horsebox surprisingly well...

 

[AndyRKett]

They are, but not sure the Land Cruiser, Hilux and Supra have quite the same target audience.

Although I did read an article the day saying the Supra towed a horsebox surprisingly well...

I know that older BMW engines were famed for reliability issues, but also to add insult to injury. a simple niggly problem that caused a break down like a broken pipe or faulty sensor could require a full strip-down and rebuild just to get to a £1 part leading to several £0000s in labor.

The new modular engine that came in in 2014/15 which looked to use the same components weather it was a 1.5 3 cylinder or a 4 litre V8, I haven't heard much about. I know the smaller engines are pretty reliable in the Minis except some issues with oil and water mixing in failed EGR valves.

I'm sure any straight 6 with 3 litre displacement would tow a horse box fairly well.

 

[StevenRB45]

I know that older BMW engines were famed for reliability issues, but also to add insult to injury. a simple niggly problem that caused a break down like a broken pipe or faulty sensor could require a full strip-down and rebuild just to get to a £1 part leading to several £0000s in labor.

The new modular engine that came in in 2014/15 which looked to use the same components weather it was a 1.5 3 cylinder or a 4 litre V8, I haven't heard much about. I know the smaller engines are pretty reliable in the Minis except some issues with oil and water mixing in failed EGR valves.

I'm sure any straight 6 with 3 litre displacement would tow a horse box fairly well.

We'll if we imagine they've fixed the quality issues and engineering they've not managed to fix for about 25 years at this point..

You've taken your Grenadier out into the back of beyond in Australia/Africa/wherever. It develops a minor fault but not to worry you can limp it to a local mechanic.

A mechanic who will not have any parts or idea what he's doing with a BMW engine as no one in their right mind would take an X5 or Z4 or Supra out this way

He would however probably have a reasonable selection of common failures back stock for a Toyota engine..as that's what people tend to use and know what he's doing with it despite the unfamiliar car.

Fine in this country, not a utilitarian powertrain, they clearly needed to justify the pricing and 4 banger diesel wasn't going to do that.

But anywhere where a breakdown means more than minor inconvenience..don't think it's gonna sell.

 

[porta]

You know what the Ozzies say, if you want to get into the outback, take a Landy’…if you want to get in and get back out again, take a Toyota…although they seem to be having fun with imported iveco these days, some of them obviously preparing for Mad Max

 

[AndyRKett]

You've taken your Grenadier out into the back of beyond in Australia/Africa/wherever. It develops a minor fault but not to worry you can limp it to a local mechanic.

A mechanic who will not have any parts or idea what he's doing with a BMW engine as no one in their right mind would take an X5 or Z4 or Supra out this way

He would however probably have a reasonable selection of common failures back stock for a Toyota engine..as that's what people tend to use and know what he's doing with it despite the unfamiliar car.

Fine in this country, not a utilitarian powertrain, they clearly needed to justify the pricing and 4 banger diesel wasn't going to do that.

But anywhere where a breakdown means more than minor inconvenience..don't think it's gonna sell.

To play devils advocate on this point. (and only because I agree with a lot of the points you make)

While stupidly reliable there is a reason that Toyota are not the top selling car in the UK or europe.

They might be "good" cars but they are also pretty boring in almost every way, and reliability often comes from detuning the engines, and using Hybrid tech to bring down CO2 otherwise they can be more inefficient than something that is more highly tuned.

case in point
The diesel in the Hilux is 150hp and 400nm @2000 RPM in a 2.4 diesel 240g/km of CO2
A diesel Golf come in a 197hp and 400nm@ 1600RPM. in a 2.0 diesel. 136g/km of CO2

The Ineos in basic trim is 245HP and 550nm at 1250 RPM in a 3.0 diesel. 286g/km CO2

The BMW engine in the Ineos is greatly de-tuned from what BMW would do with it, delivers more grunt at lower revs and still has more top line BHP. Do Toyota have an engine that would be able to compete with that?

Then if Toyota engines are so good why aren't all manufacturers using them instead of making their own.

These days if your BMW engine breaks down, there are not many places in the world you can't get parts and not many mechanics to don't know how to deal with BMW engines given how common they've become and how popular they are.

 

[StevenRB45]

To play devils advocate on this point. (and only because I agree with a lot of the points you make)

While stupidly reliable there is a reason that Toyota are not the top selling car in the UK or europe.

They might be "good" cars but they are also pretty boring in almost every way, and reliability often comes from detuning the engines, and using Hybrid tech to bring down CO2 otherwise they can be more inefficient than something that is more highly tuned.

case in point
The diesel in the Hilux is 150hp and 400nm @2000 RPM in a 2.4 diesel 240g/km of CO2
A diesel Golf come in a 197hp and 400nm@ 1600RPM. in a 2.0 diesel. 136g/km of CO2

The Ineos in basic trim is 245HP and 550nm at 1250 RPM in a 3.0 diesel. 286g/km CO2

The BMW engine in the Ineos is greatly de-tuned from what BMW would do with it, delivers more grunt at lower revs and still has more top line BHP. Do Toyota have an engine that would be able to compete with that?

Then if Toyota engines are so good why aren't all manufacturers using them instead of making their own.

These days if your BMW engine breaks down, there are not many places in the world you can't get parts and not many mechanics to don't know how to deal with BMW engines given how common they've become and how popular they are.

If we move away from thinking of it as a car as moment..as let's face it a defender is a terrible car.

Both of those figures are far higher than anything a stock defender except perhaps the V8 left the factory with.

Outright speed was never the goal, it rarely is when it comes to farm machinery/military equipment.

So you're talking about a torque figure that will effectively be going through a 16 speed gearbox given the transfer case. Wheel torque if required can be massive.

It's not so much a poor choice as an odd choice given the stated goal, although may be one they've backed themselves into with a 3 tonne kerb weight.

 

[AndyRKett]

MSN

VW have announced today they are shutting down electric car production for the next 6 weeks due to "customer reluctance" when it comes to buying electric vehicles.

Trying to pass it off as economical in terms of high gas prices are making electricity more expensive and oil prices dropping have made electric cars less attractive. But lets be honest, in a time when food prices, energy prices and the cost of living are going through the roof. People do not want to go out and pay £40k for a id3 which on paper spec wise is no different to a golf with a petrol or diesel engine but costs about £10k less.

Also the depreciation on electric vehicles right now is shocking, losing half the value in the first couple of years.

I have been recently advised by someone in the trade to hold on to my diesel golf as they expect demand for diesel vehicles to start going up again and demand will increase.

 

[StevenRB45]

I saw this...

It might just be a bad time to be selling expensive cars that don't really work particularly well. You can get a model 3 for the price of an electric Skoda FFS..

Head of Audi has recently gone as well...

All we can extrapolate is VW electric cars aren't selling well.

If Tesla and Hyundai come out with with similar announcements then it's a market trend.

Electric cars were always going to drop like a stone once demand met supply, in previous years 50% off after 3 years was a normal depreciation curve anyway. But with an electric car it was going to be worse as the high rate of development ensures your 3-5 year old one is significantly less desirable than a new one.

That and the requirement for a drive and home charging not to be a pain in the arse means the market for them isn't as big..

 

[porta]

Tesla is doing what VW in Italy did, selling at a loss to corner a market…in teslas case it has created as many problems as it has positives. Yes it’s created sales, to the detriment of other EV sales, but it’s also devalued the market, plus it’s alienated existing Tesla owners…oh dear, how sad, never mind

 

[AndyRKett]

All we can extrapolate is VW electric cars aren't selling well.

If Tesla and Hyundai come out with with similar announcements then it's a market trend.

No extrapolation needed, that is pretty much what they are saying, and laying off about 300 staff on the EV production side.

I think VW have rapidly churned out a whole range of electric cars to match the sort of range of cars they had with petrol and diesel engines. With little thought to what the buyers of EVs wanted, they just made in effect a whole new car company of electric cars then pitched it against there own equally spec'd ICE cars. Two expensive production lines for the same group of customers.

Maybe in this instance Fiat have done the right think in bringing the 500e to market and then letting it settle before seeing what happens next.

VW may have gotten carried away with a whole range that most people don't want. A prime example is the newly announced ID7 which is an electric Passat. Great except Passat sales are not exactly high and you're going head to head with Tesla in the Model3/S area, where both those cars are pitched towards luxury, where as most people do not see a VW as a luxury car so when poised with a choice between a Model 3 and a VW of somesort the perception will be the Tesla is more luxury for the money.

I don't believe tesla are going to be stopping production but they have announced some pretty big price cuts in recent months as demand has tapered off.

Like all new technologies, people who want it and are early adopters have dashed out and bought the cars, while more cautious folk have sat back and watched what happens.

I know when I tested an iD3 in 2021, they where asking something stupid like £45k for a mid range model Which at that time was Porsche Boxster money.
I get that those wanting an Eco electric car probably were not going down to the local Porsche dealer, but stepping back and looking at the whole market, you'd have to be insane to pay £45k for what amounted to a mid range golf at the time the golf would have been maybe £25-30k.

They are currently saying on average an electric car costs £10k more than a petrol alternative, but I think that's only because the cost of the petrol cars has been pushed up massively in the last 3 years.

Tesla is doing what VW in Italy did, selling at a loss to corner a market…in teslas case it has created as many problems as it has positives. Yes it’s created sales, to the detriment of other EV sales, but it’s also devalued the market, plus it’s alienated existing Tesla owners…oh dear, how sad, never mind

Tesla have had to cut prices to keep competitive, there honeymoon period where they had no serious competition is long gone. That said they are not selling at a loss, they still returned a reasonable profit in Q1 of this year, with a boost to sales, but the profits per car are down as they have had to trim prices. As a share holder, there share prices has been creeping back up since the beginning of the year, after a terrible end to 2022, and they are proposing the Tesla truck will be released to the public by the end of 2023..... maybe.

 

[StevenRB45]

No extrapolation needed, that is pretty much what they are saying, and laying off about 300 staff on the EV production side.

I was more thinking of how they worded the announcement, "Strong customer reluctance to switch to electric cars", erm EV registrations are massively up especially with fleets. But they are not going to say "no one wants OUR electric cars". Not to say the market isn't perhaps smaller than expected.

I think VW have rapidly churned out a whole range of electric cars to match the sort of range of cars they had with petrol and diesel engines. With little thought to what the buyers of EVs wanted, they just made in effect a whole new car company of electric cars then pitched it against there own equally spec'd ICE cars. Two expensive production lines for the same group of customers.

Maybe in this instance Fiat have done the right think in bringing the 500e to market and then letting it settle before seeing what happens next.

I kinda agree with the first point but no I don't think Fiat did the right thing, the only reason they have an electric range coming now is the formation of Stellantis without it I'd bet things like the 600 would not have happened.

To me it looks like the more cautious multi-fuel platform strategy PSA/Stellantis followed seems to be the correct strategy. Offer Petrol, diesel, electric and hybrid versions of the same car. Which sounds complicated but because you're using the exact same mechanicals across the range as a group you've got reasonable economy of scale even if it sounds ridiculous at a single model level.

It means if a customer comes into your showroom and wants a diesel...you sell them one. Seems to be nice solution to consumer tastes changing or not.

Except of course the electric and hybrid versions of these cars are far too expensive. An electric Astra is model 3 money, the hybrid isn't really any better either. I feel like what they are chasing here is they know these will be fleet cars, and they'll be low maintenance cost and low fuel cost so they can charge all the money up front. As a private buyer they do not make sense.

Cheapest electric Astra is 40k.. cheapest petrol 26k. If we do a little maths, last year including the fact I went on a driving holiday while fuel was at its most expensive ever I spent 1800 quid on fuel. Petrol Astra has same engine as mine, better aero but more weight so we'll round that up to 2k a year. At 11k miles a year that will take 7 years to recoup the purchase price difference, but in that time the electric Astra will have lost more money than the petrol one cost to buy.

 

[AndyRKett]

I kinda agree with the first point but no I don't think Fiat did the right thing, the only reason they have an electric range coming now is the formation of Stellantis without it I'd bet things like the 600 would not have happened.

Let me clarify my statement a bit. Fiat didn't commit to making an entire range of electric cars spending billions in the process to do so. If they had then obviously the Merger and formation of Stellantis would probably not gone ahead or wouldn't have been so necessary, it was there lack of R&D in recent years which forced their hand in that respect.

Had Fiat invested billions in a whole range of Electric cars I suspect they would not have had the resilience to cope with a down turn in electric car sales, especially given their lack of investment in existing models, At this moment in time they have been struggling to supply even non EV cars due to supply issues with electronic parts which I strongly suspect stems from old models using old electronics components which are not so profitable for manufacturers to make for what have become low volume cars like the Panda. I am sure parts used in current Pandas are the same parts they used in 2012 when they launched the current model.

VW on the other hand do have more resilience in this respect so I suspect even with a slump in electric car sales now, long term that investment will pay off. and while they might stop production temporarily on things like the ID range of cars they have there normal range of cars to fall back on.

I wonder if people have been holding back, waiting to see what happens with EVs and following Covid they are now reaching a point they can't wait any longer, EVs are still very expensive and if anything car prices have shot up since covid rather than ICE cars going down in price as EVs take over, so as a consequence people are now finally replacing cars but going for the cheaper ICE cars instead to get them through another few years, rather than stump up the extra £10-20k for the electric equivalent.

It is still likely to cost VW a lot of money. Having a production line of cars sat idle is not cheap but on the other hand Fiat having taken a much slower route to EVs is unlikely to have to cut production and is unlikely to have a lack of orders with those loyal to the fiat 500 having only the 500e as an upgrade to what they already have.

No one in their right mind is paying £80K for a VW buzz when a £50k Transporter will do the same job and is tried and tested, especially if you're a builder or trades person.

Other than the environmental argument of no tail pipe emissions you'd have to be nuts to pay £40k for a Id3 over £26k Golf which on paper are the same basis car under the skin. Used ID3s are selling at £20k at less than a couple of years old which will also scare off fleet buyers.

 

[porta]

Let’s be very clear, Covid didn’t make cars expensive, brexit did

 

[AndyRKett]

Let’s be very clear, Covid didn’t make cars expensive, brexit did

Tell that to the rest of the world where the price of cars has also gone through the roof.

The chip shortage made cars expensive. The US banning the production of advanced chips in china and banning the export of advanced chips to china made cars expensive.

The war in the Ukraine and sanctions on Russia where a lot of materials used in car production has then further pushed up the price of cars new and old, as old cars can be used to reclaim some of these materials.
China Shutting Factories for months on end to stem the spread of Covid lead to parts and material shortages.
Growing demand for components in growing economies like china has also pushed up prices.

There are a million bigger things going on in the last 3 years that have made cars expensive.

Brexit's role in this is minimal at best.

 

[StevenRB45]

Other than the environmental argument of no tail pipe emissions you'd have to be nuts to pay £40k for a Id3 over £26k Golf which on paper are the same basis car under the skin. Used ID3s are selling at £20k at less than a couple of years old which will also scare off fleet buyers.

If I remember correctly the current company car taxation system crucifies anything that emits over 50g/km

So if you want a nice company car it needs to be a hybrid, electric or plug in hybrid to the point where even that sort of loss is more palatable then paying the tax on it.

Electric car pays 2% BIK...the C3 would pay 10x that based on its tail pipe emissions. This is before you get to the diesel surcharge on top..

 

[porta]

If I remember correctly the current company car taxation system crucifies anything that emits over 50g/km

So if you want a nice company car it needs to be a hybrid, electric or plug in hybrid to the point where even that sort of loss is more palatable then paying the tax on it.

Electric car pays 2% BIK...the C3 would pay 10x that based on its tail pipe emissions. This is before you get to the diesel surcharge on top..

More and more companies doing away with cars, or allowing more ‘opt-outs’, and giving a bonus instead…this is now how one of my brothers gets motors and goes for cars a couple of years old…he’s now got some merc or other
Mate, who has a 500, and works for one of the big banks, also opted out of scheme