Have VAG totally lost the plot?

[StevenRB45]

Weather you like the buttons or not the quality fit and finish of the ID3 is pretty good, certainly no different in terms of quality to a mk7 golf.

It's the lack of buttons..how cheap do you have to be to save 1 button by instead of having 4 electric window switches having 2..and a touch sensitive button to switch to rear windows.

Also the wheel...capacitive buttons have no place where you may brush them. So yes let's put them on the spokes of a steering wheel.

Probably saves VW a few quid per car...but makes the car much more annoying than most things except a Tesla.

I don't want to stroke the dashboard to increase the temperature...I also don't want to go into a sub menu to deal with a heated seat.

It's unnecessary and penny pinching.

 

[portland_bill]

I've driven a few IDs, two 3s and a 4. All very pleasant, comfortable, and easy to get along with. They are a VW, powered by electric.
There is (was) a Golf E, fully electric. Looks like a Golf, drives like a Golf. The owner had no idea about anything other than his normal car functions. He was however quite enthusiastic about the pre-heat or pre-cool functions, so was going to research them and put them to use. Otherwise, he didn't care how it was propelled.

 

[AndyRKett]

It's the lack of buttons..how cheap do you have to be to save 1 button by instead of having 4 electric window switches having 2..and a touch sensitive button to switch to rear windows.

literally don't even consider this when driving it's Same with the cars I have, its very infrequent you need to use the electric window buttons for the back when driving in the front.

Also the wheel...capacitive buttons have no place where you may brush them. So yes let's put them on the spokes of a steering wheel.

I am pretty sure I remember the steering wheel buttons you have to press. They may detect where your finger is on the much bigger all in one button but you have to press it to activate anything.

I don't want to stroke the dashboard to increase the temperature...I also don't want to go into a sub menu to deal with a heated seat.

I get this, but the at least the heating control has some sort of button unlike a lot of new cars where it is all done on the touch screen.

It's unnecessary and penny pinching.

I'm not sure it is penny pinching, in the old days you had a button that was either on or off. probably cost next to nothing.
The modern methods mean you have to have a touch sensitive button, that has some sort of tactile feed back maybe pressure sensitive and touch sensitive. This has to cost more than a simple on off button.
Then you have to pay someone to program it all, and load that program into a computer somewhere in the car. I don't think this is done to save money, I suspect a lot of this is driven by what people expect when they are buying these cars now.
Obviously the technology in these cars is way more than you would ever seen on this level of car even 10 years ago, and they have so many functions and settings that they have to put a lot of things in menus. You can't have a literal button for everything, it would end up looking like a 2000s mercedes. but The ID cars have been very well received.

 

[StevenRB45]

Wait till your boy is a little older...

So Saturday we went for day out, on arrival they check your tickets in the car as is usual for a lot of these things..wind the window down show your pass go.

Way back the lads knackered, and it's about 5pm, it's a 50 minute drive ..if he naps you'll be seeing him until the wrong side of 10pm.

So..you engage the time honoured tradition of winding his window down whenever he's nodding off.

Imagine this in an id3...you pull up at the start of the day...not having reset the window control to front from last time you used them. So wind the back window down first and look like a fool...then on the way home you open the wrong bloody window again.. because why is it like that? You decide to turn the radio up instead.. unfortunately it's a Roman road in Northumberland so it's very up and down..and there's no volume knob either so stroking the dashboard the way it likes is somewhat fraught.

Yes it technically works...it just adds annoyance and complexity to things that don't have to be.

Also re. Cheap...you make one touchscreen unit and all you vary is the skin and size of the screen and use it in all models be they Skoda or Audi the software and hardware will have the same basic architecture behind the scenes. It makes subscription functions easier though...mysterious.

 

[vexorg]

Buttons aren't always the answer, we have two new NV250 vans at work. The main menu control is a nightmare, you can rotate it, and also push it up, down, left, right like a joystick control for the cursor. You also press down to select a menu item, but the direction part is so sensitive that when you select then it always jumps a direction then selects, and that's the only way to control the screen for everything.

It's also touch screen, again in their wisdom nissan put the screen about 4 feet away, meaning even as a passenger you struggle to reach it.

Like everything, you get good touch screens and bad, same with buttons, some are better than others.

 

[AndyRKett]

Wait till your boy is a little older...

So Saturday we went for day out, on arrival they check your tickets in the car as is usual for a lot of these things..wind the window down show your pass go.

Way back the lads knackered, and it's about 5pm, it's a 50 minute drive ..if he naps you'll be seeing him until the wrong side of 10pm.

So..you engage the time honoured tradition of winding his window down whenever he's nodding off.

Imagine this in an id3...you pull up at the start of the day...not having reset the window control to front from last time you used them. So wind the back window down first and look like a fool...then on the way home you open the wrong bloody window again.. because why is it like that? You decide to turn the radio up instead.. unfortunately it's a Roman road in Northumberland so it's very up and down..and there's no volume knob either so stroking the dashboard the way it likes is somewhat fraught.

Yes it technically works...it just adds annoyance and complexity to things that don't have to be.

that’s a very specific use case, he’s one now and seems to function like a clock, 7pm sleep 6am wake, he can nap any time of the day seemingly for any length of time and he will still need to sleep at 7pm winding windows up and down is never an issue and to be fair if he sleeps in the car it saves the headache of the current constant chatter.

As these are all soft touch buttons I believe the iD3 reverts to front control again if left. You press the button a light comes on saying “Rear” to tell you it’s set to rear, then after not being used a while turns off again.

The golf I never hit the rear windows as the switch is sensibly designed, but the mini rear window switches on the drivers door are often mixed up with the front so opening and having to re close the rear windows is a regular accidental occurrence, though we have sun blinds suction cupped to the rear window glass so if you do accidentally open it, then usually the blind pings off. So in that case not having the buttons so easily accessible would be useful !

It’s horses for courses but really they make cars for the majority of people. I’ve had cars with rear electric windows for decades but rarely ever use them, these days with air conditioning and our local car parks not even issuing tickets as they work or number plate recognition there are few times the drivers window is even used

 

[StevenRB45]

that’s a very specific use case, he’s one now and seems to function like a clock, 7pm sleep 6am wake, he can nap any time of the day seemingly for any length of time and he will still need to sleep at 7pm winding windows up and down is never an issue and to be fair if he sleeps in the car it saves the headache of the current constant chatter.

As these are all soft touch buttons I believe the iD3 reverts to front control again if left. You press the button a light comes on saying “Rear” to tell you it’s set to rear, then after not being used a while turns off again.

The golf I never hit the rear windows as the switch is sensibly designed, but the mini rear window switches on the drivers door are often mixed up with the front so opening and having to re close the rear windows is a regular accidental occurrence, though we have sun blinds suction cupped to the rear window glass so if you do accidentally open it, then usually the blind pings off. So in that case not having the buttons so easily accessible would be useful !

It’s horses for courses but really they make cars for the majority of people. I’ve had cars with rear electric windows for decades but rarely ever use them, these days with air conditioning and our local car parks not even issuing tickets as they work or number plate recognition there are few times the drivers window is even used

I know it's nit picky..but surely the point of tech is to make your life easier?

In this case the point seems to be to add a layer of frustration/doubt between the driver and the vehicle that is supposed to be under their control.

Having lived with touchscreen heating for 5 years...I think the place where the line should be drawn is anything you are likely to need to adjust multiple times a trip or need urgently should be nowhere near a touchscreen. Also means if the screen packs up you've still got all your basic functions.

Ours is ok on the basis the hidden things are generally set to automatic re. climate. and demist and defrost are front and centre on a physical button.

 

[vexorg]

It’s horses for courses but really they make cars for the majority of people. I’ve had cars with rear electric windows for decades but rarely ever use them

Citroen thought the same for the DS4, "no one uses the rear windows, forget all the mechanism, have them permanently closed"

 

[AndyRKett]

Also means if the screen packs up you've still got all your basic functions.

Ours is ok on the basis the hidden things are generally set to automatic re. climate. and demist and defrost are front and centre on a physical button.

This raises a good point, I seem to think a lot of older Teslas (and some new ones) are having the touch screen fail and therefore everything stops working, not only that but teslas parts supplies are terrible leaving people with a completely unusable car for months

 

[vexorg]

not only that but teslas parts supplies are terrible leaving people with a completely unusable car for months

And about every other manufacturer!

Again, conventional controls are just as weak, we had a sedona with lots of button old style.The heater control panel failed in winter and car was useless. Phones and tablets are very well established technology now (avoiding cheap chinese clones).

 

[StevenRB45]

This raises a good point, I seem to think a lot of older Teslas (and some new ones) are having the touch screen fail and therefore everything stops working, not only that but teslas parts supplies are terrible leaving people with a completely unusable car for months

Richard Porter of "sniff petrol" "Autocar" and Top Gear fame had a Cupra Formentor on test.

This car took 4.5 minutes from starting the engine to allowing you to adjust the temperature on the climate control as it will not allow you to make changes while the system is still booting.

Personally I find the 15 seconds the Citroën takes to be too bloody long, and it's only gonna get worse as the car gets older. Especially when you figure in things like over the air updates...which if it's like any other tech will just make it slower over time.

The Cupra was probably faulty in some way...but even none total failure is gonna be pretty damned annoying.

 

[AndyRKett]

And about every other manufacturer!

Again, conventional controls are just as weak, we had a sedona with lots of button old style.The heater control panel failed in winter and car was useless. Phones and tablets are very well established technology now (avoiding cheap chinese clones).

There is a very specific issue with the touch screen failing in teslas with age, but Tesla don't really make spares to if you need one they have to order one to be made, then you have to wait and wait and wait. The touchscreen in a tesla is also the main computer which controls literally everything. Most cares are made up of modules but tesla just use one big unit. So if the touch screen dies the car dies.

At lease on most other models as stated above if the touch screen dies the car is still usable albeit maybe without heating or a radio,

 

[porta]

 

[StevenRB45]

Hmm...

Accelerates itself to 100mph at random and refuses to charge.

Certainly looks like they are getting to the bottom of the software glitches in the new VWs.

Skoda Enyaq vRS - long term review - Report No:3 2023 | Top Gear

One of the Enyaq's many top-line ECUs glows red, which means trouble. And not for the first time

www.topgear.com

Oh well it's only 55 grand not like you'd expect a working car for such a pittance.

 

[AndyRKett]

Certainly looks like they are getting to the bottom of the software glitches in the new VWs.

I think I’ve said this before, car companies are having to become software companies, cars are the hardware that runs the software and its not a simple case of copy and paste from one model to another. Bugs are bound to creep in all over the place in the rush to get things to market.
(It’s not like Microsoft, Apple and every other major software House don’t have there fare share of bugs)

Thing is it’s not just VAG every company keeps getting problems and glitches popping up, fiat have had it with the 500e
Citroen have had it with the ami weirdly a lot of European car makers seem to struggle with the conversion of kph to mph and lots of glitches keep popping up

 

[StevenRB45]

I think I’ve said this before, car companies are having to become software companies, cars are the hardware that runs the software and its not a simple case of copy and paste from one model to another. Bugs are bound to creep in all over the place in the rush to get things to market.
(It’s not like Microsoft, Apple and every other major software House don’t have there fare share of bugs)

Thing is it’s not just VAG every company keeps getting problems and glitches popping up, fiat have had it with the 500e
Citroen have had it with the ami weirdly a lot of European car makers seem to struggle with the conversion of kph to mph and lots of glitches keep popping up

Not heard of anyone else's cars automatically attempting to exceed the posted limit by 30mph without driver intervention..but I'll keep a look out.

Most modern cars have this functionality, but in most it requires the driver to accept the speed...or the automatic functions can be turned off. Too clever for its own good..

 

[AndyRKett]

Not heard of anyone else's cars automatically attempting to exceed the posted limit by 30mph without driver intervention..but I'll keep a look out.

Most modern cars have this functionality, but in most it requires the driver to accept the speed...or the automatic functions can be turned off. Too clever for its own good..

I think having a system that sees a speed limit sign then drives at that speed limit isn’t wise as it is open to abuse.

I think of all those rural villages with 20mph signs all over the locals wheelie bins that they then park in the street, or someone putting a sign out deliberately to trick the system and get people in to trouble.

How is the car going to know the difference between a 50mph sign in the uk and a 50mph sign in continental Europe, it’s dependant on the car knowing where it is and what the local speed limits are.

Even Tesla has had more than its fare share of f**k ups, like the Tesla that drove into a $2M jet because Tesla never programmed them to recognise aircraft as obstacles, that wasn't even that long ago maybe within the last year.

As I said car manufacturers are finding out very quickly they need to become software companies

 

[StevenRB45]

It's a very common thing due to NCAP requiring speed limit assist.

Even the C3 has it, camera in the windscreen scans for roadsigns and reads any it sees. On passing them they are displayed on the dash, if you press a button on the cruise stalk you can send it the cruise or the speed limiter depending on what mode you are in.

I've had exactly the same situation the gentleman in the topic gear article describes where it reads an abandoned sign at long gone road works, or worse reads a road sign on a residential street next to an urban motorway, although it's never misread a sign as 100 mph yet.

However because it's "stupid" it expects me to make the decision as to whether or the speed it is displaying is appropriate rather than the decision being taken away and it dropping for 70 to 30 mph on a motorway because it read a sign 40ft to the left of the hard shoulder.

Not having an off button and making it automatic is monumentally daft.

 

[AndyRKett]

It's a very common thing due to NCAP requiring speed limit assist.

Even the C3 has it, camera in the windscreen scans for roadsigns and reads any it sees. On passing them they are displayed on the dash, if you press a button on the cruise stalk you can send it the cruise or the speed limiter depending on what mode you are in.

I've had exactly the same situation the gentleman in the topic gear article describes where it reads an abandoned sign at long gone road works, or worse reads a road sign on a residential street next to an urban motorway, although it's never misread a sign as 100 mph yet.

However because it's "stupid" it expects me to make the decision as to whether or the speed it is displaying is appropriate rather than the decision being taken away and it dropping for 70 to 30 mph on a motorway because it read a sign 40ft to the left of the hard shoulder.

Not having an off button and making it automatic is monumentally daft.

Without knowing the system I can’t comment but I would say it makes an article a lot less interesting if the car accelerated to 100mph or slammed on the brakes because he confirmed it himself.

No matter how stupid the software is people have an a much more intimate capacity for stupidity so I’d not be surprised if he was just in the habit of hitting the button or control that accepts the new speed, or if ignored for too long it does take matters into its own hands. Who knows, I’m not about to go drive one to find out. But…. Article wouldn’t be very interesting if he basically admitted to driving it wrong

 

[StevenRB45]

Without knowing the system I can’t comment but I would say it makes an article a lot less interesting if the car accelerated to 100mph or slammed on the brakes because he confirmed it himself.

No matter how stupid the software is people have an a much more intimate capacity for stupidity so I’d not be surprised if he was just in the habit of hitting the button or control that accepts the new speed, or if ignored for too long it does take matters into its own hands. Who knows, I’m not about to go drive one to find out. But…. Article wouldn’t be very interesting if he basically admitted to driving it wrong

Well it being a modern VW the cruise control will controlled by haptic buttons...

So he may be inadvertently have been resting his thumb on the steering wheel and accepting all speed corrections from the camera.

However does seem to suggest it's automated and can't be turned off and you'd imagine the dealer would be aware if it wasn't.

Either way it does seem to be using technology to create new problems by not actually thinking it through.