Off Topic Fuel! What is petrol?

[UKRMedic]

Here's a mad one for you.
E10, E5, E0.

I have a boat. It's an old boat, a very fast old boat with a mercruiser 4.3 engine in it. When home, the only fuel available to me is E10 (from the marina). I can get E5 from the petrol station.

Many people are saying E10 is no good for my older engine, due to X Y Z, and indeed, new fuel lines, new fuel pump etc all needed recently ish.

The economy is never great with boats. It's a similar energy expenditure ratio to pushing a wardrobe on a carpet. Would be easier with wheels.

With E10, I can blow 300 quids worth of fuel easily in 5 hours.

I've decided to try and only use fuel of a lower E to see if it makes a difference on the boat.

Now, here's the fiat bit. My panda says, loud and proud, E10 is fine (also advertises E5).

I've only ever used E10 in the UK, god knows what I'm sticking in overseas, it's probably 4 star .

In the UK, the economy (which I was looking at) seemed dreadful. 310 miles to a tank roughly (maybe that's good, not sure).

Driving style plays a card, sure.

But would using E5 make a massive difference to economy? What about E0? (Not even sure what that is).

If E10 is the evil everyone says it is, surely, it's a false economy - we buy it because it's cheaper, but we're getting less value?

 

[Panda IIs]

Here's a mad one for you.
E10, E5, E0.

I have a boat. It's an old boat, a very fast old boat with a mercruiser 4.3 engine in it. When home, the only fuel available to me is E10 (from the marina). I can get E5 from the petrol station.

Many people are saying E10 is no good for my older engine, due to X Y Z, and indeed, new fuel lines, new fuel pump etc all needed recently ish.

The economy is never great with boats. It's a similar energy expenditure ratio to pushing a wardrobe on a carpet. Would be easier with wheels.

With E10, I can blow 300 quids worth of fuel easily in 5 hours.

I've decided to try and only use fuel of a lower E to see if it makes a difference on the boat.

Now, here's the fiat bit. My panda says, loud and proud, E10 is fine (also advertises E5).

I've only ever used E10 in the UK, god knows what I'm sticking in overseas, it's probably 4 star .

In the UK, the economy (which I was looking at) seemed dreadful. 310 miles to a tank roughly (maybe that's good, not sure).

Driving style plays a card, sure.

But would using E5 make a massive difference to economy? What about E0? (Not even sure what that is).

If E10 is the evil everyone says it is, surely, it's a false economy - we buy it because it's cheaper, but we're getting less value?

Panda TA 4x4 experience.

E10, or 5 refers to the % ethanol used to dilute the petrol. Ethanol has a lower calorific value than the petrol it replaces so you get fewer miles per gallon, but lower CO2 emissions. Ethanol diluted fuel also changes the solubility (solubility parameter - making it a better solvent...) of the fuel which means it may be less compatible (in the engineering sense, or more compatible in the chemical sense) for any non-metallic (read rubber and plastics) components in the fuel system. This can result in a faster absorption, with, probably, associated swelling, that leads to premature failure or at least higher emissions due to permeation.

As an alcohol, ethanol will have a propensity to absorb water (from the atmosphere) hence some of the "chatter" on the internet about "old" fuel being bad although personally I think there are a lot of unsubstantiated myths here... In South America (Brazil) they run E100(!) which allows or assumes (I think) 5% water! I was aware a number of years ago of the OEM car manufacturers trialling fuel systems in South America in preparation for the Europe changes towards ethanol legislation.

My TA will deliver better mpg on the higher octane "super" grades which remain E5 in the UK. The higher mpg balances the higher cost of the fuel. As you observe, overseas the rules seem to be different. My recent SK and PL experience suggests that they don't "have" to sell E grades yet (or haven't relabelled the pumps!). The Golf 4 (petrol) engine that I use when over there definitely runs better on E0.

 

[UKRMedic]

Panda TA 4x4 experience.

E10, or 5 refers to the % ethanol used to dilute the petrol. Ethanol has a lower calorific value than the petrol it replaces so you get fewer miles per gallon, but lower CO2 emissions. Ethanol diluted fuel also changes the solubility (solubility parameter - making it a better solvent...) of the fuel which means it may be less compatible (in the engineering sense, or more compatible in the chemical sense) for any non-metallic (read rubber and plastics) components in the fuel system. This can result in a faster absorption, with, probably, associated swelling, that leads to premature failure or at least higher emissions due to permeation.

As an alcohol, ethanol will have a propensity to absorb water (from the atmosphere) hence some of the "chatter" on the internet about "old" fuel being bad although personally I think there are a lot of unsubstantiated myths here... In South America (Brazil) they run E100(!) which allows or assumes (I think) 5% water! I was aware a number of years ago of the OEM car manufacturers trialling fuel systems in South America in preparation for the Europe changes towards ethanol legislation.

My TA will deliver better mpg on the higher octane "super" grades which remain E5 in the UK. The higher mpg balances the higher cost of the fuel. As you observe, overseas the rules seem to be different. My recent SK and PL experience suggests that they don't "have" to sell E grades yet (or haven't relabelled the pumps!). The Golf 4 (petrol) engine that I use when over there definitely runs better on E0.

Many thanks for this. It explains it perfectly!

I think I'll see if I can get petrol petrol when I can, like E0 and see what happens!

 

[Goudrons]

E5 and E10 also have different octane ratings.
E5 is 97 or more.
E10 is 95.

Some cars "cope" with higher octane fuels better than others, which means they can make better use of it to produce more power.
This "coping" means the cars ECU's are better at altering the timing to make use of the better octanes resistence to pre ignition (engine knock).

Most everyday models won't be able to or won't be able to as much as say something more sporty that was programmed in the first place to make use of the higher octane.

When I bought my Abarth I was well aware the claimed 165hp was only achieveable on the higher octane fuel.
In the real world, you couldn't tell the difference really. The tiny fuel tank ran dry just as quickly on either fuel and to get to use all 165hp on my local roads didn't come around that often.

 

[lunchbeers]

As per @Panda IIs, by my fag packet calcs, I reckon I’m about 10% worse off with E10 vs E5, cost per litre is approx 6% more for super unleaded so makes sense for me to use that.

 

[RalphM]

A mate has a Honda 125 made in Brazil it ran very rich, it had a main jet for E100 fitted
got a much smaller UK jet fitted that perfect, ethanol will also slowly eat seals and in
some cases fuel pipes so unless your system is ethanol friendly your better keeping
to the lower E numbers, in some parts of the UK the super grade I believe is E0

 

[Panda IIs]

As per @Panda IIs, by my fag packet calcs, I reckon I’m about 10% worse off with E10 vs E5, cost per litre is approx 6% more for super unleaded so makes sense for me to use that.

Don't be smoking around those pumps E10 just as flammable as unleaded!

 

[varesecrazy]

Yes I believe the
E5- 95RON
E10- 99RON to be correct

Ive only ever used 95 RON in my 68,000 miles of twinair ownership..
and only @8 tanks were 'Esso..Shell' generally Sainbugs and Tesco base unleaded since March 2013

Needed fuel last weekend... low on stock I only had the 99RON E10 option


No discernable improvement... but Did 'hang on well' with Cruise set on a steep hill at 70mph ( although this car is Strong..)

Random CG 125 BRASIL 'fact'

Back in my history I recall a worldwide motorsport championship (a week long event) being run in Brazil

Regs stated it had to be run on unleaded.. the tanker supplying the event with Unleaded was delayed..the event started @3 days late.. and the remaining thousands of litres at the end was useless.. as Brasil was still on 4-star

 

[Panda IIs]

Yes I believe the
E5- 95RON
E10- 99RON to be correct

Are you sure re E10??? (higher octane rating...)?

 

[varesecrazy]

Other way around !
(sorry my version.. typed badly)

Basic Modern Unleaded 95RON 10% ETHANOL

Posh modern Unleaded 99RON 5% Ethanol

Original 1995 era unleaded was 95RON
I believe.. but Ethanol percentage may have been varied over the years ..and by region

Scandinavians were early adopters due to locally sourced Ethanol supplies

 

[koalar]

Real world figures in a 1.2 Fiat panda 169 eco 2010

Cheap petrol supermarket
Expensive petrol shell

Standard or super

Makes absolutely no difference in MPG

I have to admit I cheated slightly with the testing

Testing super against standard was before E10 came out

Testing supermarket and shell was before E10 came out

E5 vs E10 is via thousands of mile pre and post introduction at mainly cheap Morrisons petrol

The funny thing is expensive petrol appears to be smoother, got to be psychological I think.


My be different in a turbo. But I would be confident the latter normally aspirated cars would be similar

My MPG does changed depending on which roads I travel, which way the winds blowing, how many people are in the car and so on.

I can no longer test as I am now not doing the long commute 5 times a week. Week in week out.

 

[UKRMedic]

Great information here! Many thanks!

With help from Google, Esso Synergy Supreme is ethanol free (I'm guessing E0 then...)

The Esso site states although it says E5, it's without the E really...

 

[The Panda Nut]

My TA is plated to take E10. Tried it and didnt like the results on any front. Might as well buy a horse and a raqin coat. E5 only while there is any for me. I cannot see how burning so much more fuel can be beneficial even with the reduced fossil fuel element, In fact I feel its worse for the planet and certainly doies not agree with any of our Pandas. And dont put E10 in mowers either without using the expensive additives or it will do your mower no favours. Google it!

 

[UKRMedic]

My TA is plated to take E10. Tried it and didnt like the results on any front. Might as well buy a horse and a raqin coat. E5 only while there is any for me. I cannot see how burning so much more fuel can be beneficial even with the reduced fossil fuel element, In fact I feel its worse for the planet and certainly doies not agree with any of our Pandas. And dont put E10 in mowers either without using the expensive additives or it will do your mower no favours. Google it!

It's like paying to hurt yourself. What kind of sick world are we being made to live in?

Lunatics are running the asylum!

 

[Cornish Ian]

Great information here! Many thanks!

With help from Google, Esso Synergy Supreme is ethanol free (I'm guessing E0 then...)

The Esso site states although it says E5, it's without the E really...

I believe it still contains ethanol in Devon and Cornwall unfortunately

 

[A3jeroen]

Your 4,3 l 6 cilinder will run fine on 95. Probably even run great on 91 (no longer available). My boat (40 Hp EFI Yamaha) runs on E10 when I use it every day (in my vacation) as soon as I no longer use it (fall) all petrol is drained. In the spring when I use it sporadically I do not want petrol containing ethanol in it, so it gets BP ultimate (E0 in my country) because I don't want the ethanol to attract water ruining my fuelsystem. E10 gets bad really fast (few weeks).
Just my experience.

gr J

 

[varesecrazy]

The US has fuel that varies from State to State ( just like Europe)

Some regions needing a Dellorto carb to be flushed and stripped within 2 weeks ... again probably related to Ethanol access

@Cheest probably deals with these issues regularly

 

[UKRMedic]

Your 4,3 l 6 cilinder will run fine on 95. Probably even run great on 91 (no longer available). My boat (40 Hp EFI Yamaha) runs on E10 when I use it every day (in my vacation) as soon as I no longer use it (fall) all petrol is drained. In the spring when I use it sporadically I do not want petrol containing ethanol in it, so it gets BP ultimate (E0 in my country) because I don't want the ethanol to attract water ruining my fuelsystem. E10 gets bad really fast (few weeks).
Just my experience.

gr J

My boats name is Jeroen!
Yes. It runs fine on E10, just heavier on fuel than I want. I need to be easier on the throttle!

 

[A3jeroen]

Don't we all?
Typical dutch name

gr J

 

[bugsymike]

Your 4,3 l 6 cilinder will run fine on 95. Probably even run great on 91 (no longer available). My boat (40 Hp EFI Yamaha) runs on E10 when I use it every day (in my vacation) as soon as I no longer use it (fall) all petrol is drained. In the spring when I use it sporadically I do not want petrol containing ethanol in it, so it gets BP ultimate (E0 in my country) because I don't want the ethanol to attract water ruining my fuelsystem. E10 gets bad really fast (few weeks).
Just my experience.

gr J

Just a thought, I put a diesel Ducato engine in my boat, but made sure to use the "biocide " additive that kills the bacteria that can form and clog the whole system, if ethanol attracts water will E10 have the same problem?