Technical Ducato P0401 P0402 P0236 P0238 and limp mode its 2017 Euro 6, EGR changed, What do I check next

[CheeseMonster]

Yesterday I had the software updated to v32 on our 2017 non Ab, Comfortmatic. I hope to pluck up the courage and do some logging in the coming months, I'll forward my results to @theoneandonly .

 

[Fredastaire]

@CheeseMonster that's good news, has @theoneandonly given you his latest template of parameters to watch on a run.
I look forward to the day when somebody comes up with the solution to stop the LP EGR cooler blocking with carbon, (or a way to stop the butterfly working, ie the one that is integral within the LP EGR body).

 

[CheeseMonster]

@CheeseMonster that's good news, has @theoneandonly given you his latest template of parameters to watch on a run.
I look forward to the day when somebody comes up with the solution to stop the LP EGR cooler blocking with carbon, (or a way to stop the butterfly working, ie the one that is integral within the LP EGR body).

A copy of a template would be great and a time saver. Having not delved into any logging yet, any help will be appreciated.

 

[Masefield]

Following @theoneandonly recommendations I took my van for a longer higher speed run a couple of days ago. The run involves starting from cold then travelling a few miles to a dual carriageway, then around 12 miles at 65 mph on cruise control (nb speedo does overread so probably nearer 62 mph), then off, around an island, rejoin and reverse route home. @theoneandonly has offered to process my raw data and compare with others - I think this a useful exercise so thanks to him for undertaking that work.
I've done some processing myself so I'll show those here on this occasion. I propose to take the van on this run fairly regularly but I won't bore you with the results on future runs. I think what's important now is that have a baseline for my van and the facility to compare it with others.
First the run:

Various temperatures:

LPEGR Position:

and Delta LPEGR position:

Air Intake data:

and Delta Air Intake data:

and finally the Differential DPF Pressure:

I've always bought my fuel based on price, so usually supermarkets and I usually drive the van at a relaxed (for me) 50 mph on open roads. I now see that perhaps both these approaches are flawed so I'll start using Shell diesel (as there's a garage nearby) and driving a bit faster. I also have to confess that I've regarded fuel additives as snake oil, perhaps I should change my view on this too?

Finally I really appreciate everyone whose taken an interest in my engine. The whole thing is a strange combination of an interesting problem combined with a very worrying prospect of both being let down whilst away from home and being faced with a large repair bill.

 

[theoneandonly]

@Masefield the baseline of your own engine is important , you will now be able to monitor changes at least. I will lock at your data as pm

 

[Cariou]

BONSOIR
pour le diagnostic de ce tamis lp egr j avais devisser les 2 vis qui tienne le colecteur du refroidisseur a la vanne egr basse pression ceci permettais de laisser passer de l air pur a l entrée du turbo, et comme je n ai pas eu de defaut renouveler j ai su que le tamis étais bouché . on peu le désaccoupler par dessous le vehicule . j avais changer en neuf le tamis et un capteur de temperature j ai fais 14000 KM depuis et aucun probleme
FIAT n a pas souhaiter faire unne mise a jour et n avais pas voulu faire un devis j ai l impression que le forum est plus performant que nos concessionnaire bonne soirée

 

[Baz in Kent]

BONSOIR
pour le diagnostic de ce tamis lp egr j avais devisser les 2 vis qui tienne le colecteur du refroidisseur a la vanne egr basse pression ceci permettais de laisser passer de l air pur a l entrée du turbo, et comme je n ai pas eu de defaut renouveler j ai su que le tamis étais bouché . on peu le désaccoupler par dessous le vehicule . j avais changer en neuf le tamis et un capteur de temperature j ai fais 14000 KM depuis et aucun probleme
FIAT n a pas souhaiter faire unne mise a jour et n avais pas voulu faire un devis j ai l impression que le forum est plus performant que nos concessionnaire bonne soirée
View attachment 417329

GOOD EVENING
for the diagnosis of this lp egr sieve I had unscrewed the 2 screws which hold the collector of the cooler to the low pressure egr valve this allowed clean air to pass at the turbo inlet, and since I did not have a fault renew I knew the strainer was clogged. you can uncouple it from under the vehicle. I had changed the sieve and a temperature sensor to new, I have done 14000 KM since then and no problem
FIAT did not wish to make an update and did not want to make an estimate I have the impression that the forum is more efficient than our dealers good evening

 

[Cariou]

BONSOIR
voici la vanne egr basse pression vous dévisser les 2 vis et le diagnostique sera vite fait car elle prendra de l air
de toute facon sur ces modele 2014 2019 LES VANNES HP EGR BP EGR ET PAPILLON tombe rarrement en panne il faut les demonter et netoyer je le fais tous les 2ans a chaque vidange ainsi que le collecteur admision et le cooler sous le radiateur BONNE SOIREE

 

[Cariou]

GOOD EVENING here is the low pressure egr valve you unscrew the 2 screws and the diagnosis will be done quickly because it will take air anyway on these 2014 2019 models THE HP EGR BP EGR AND BUTTERFLY VALVES rarely break down they have to be disassembled and cleaned I do it every 2 years at each oil change as well as the intake manifold and the cooler under the radiator GOOD EVENING

 

[Baz in Kent]

BONSOIR
voici la vanne egr basse pression vous dévisser les 2 vis et le diagnostique sera vite fait car elle prendra de l air
de toute facon sur ces modele 2014 2019 LES VANNES HP EGR BP EGR ET PAPILLON tombe rarrement en panne il faut les demonter et netoyer je le fais tous les 2ans a chaque vidange ainsi que le collecteur admision et le cooler sous le radiateur BONNE SOIREEView attachment 417336

GOOD EVENING
here is the low pressure egr valve you unscrew the 2 screws and the diagnosis will be done quickly because it will take air
anyway on these 2014 2019 models THE HP EGR BP EGR AND BUTTERFLY VALVES rarely break down they have to be disassembled and cleaned I do it every 2 years at each oil change as well as the intake manifold and the cooler under the radiator GOOD EVENING

 

[Fredastaire]

@Cariou , you mention cleaning the inlet manifold. may I ask how long this takes? are there any new gaskets needed? how dirty is it each time? do you need to scrape out the portholes in the cylinder head also? Also, you mention cleaning the Intercooler radiator (the radiator clipped underneath the water radiator), can you help with advice on removal technique and cleaning fluids? ive been told to use petrol. Kind regards.

 

[Cariou]

BONSOIR
démontage vanne papillon et vanne egr hp le collecteur il faut une heure 30 le cooler devant 5 minutes pour le nettoyage j ai utiliser
decappe four acetone soude caustique et eau chaude 60 degré pour le rinçage par contre j ai reutilisé les anciens joints
le collecteur il faut le gratter de partout et les hublots avec une brosse sur perceuse sans fil puis aspirer toutes les impuretés
bonne soirée

 

[Cariou]

GOOD EVENING dismantling butterfly valve and hp egr valve the manifold takes an hour and a half the cooler in front of 5 minutes for cleaning I used oven stripper acetone caustic soda and hot water 60 degrees for rinsing however I reused the old seals the collector must be scraped everywhere and the portholes with a brush on a cordless drill then suck up all the impurities good evening

 

[Lockie777]

I joined this forum when researching Fiat Ducato's about 5 years ago and in the end i purchased a low mileage 2017 2.3l Euro 6. Its now on 63000 miles, all trouble free. Not used the forum much since then but popped up on google when reasearching the egr problem over the weekend.
I learnt about the egr problems from various sources over the years and it seems to be more of a problem as the vans get older and mileage gets higher.
However, i know someone who's 2018 euro 6 Ducato suffered from the egr problem. Went into the dealer for a few weeks and the outcome was many 1000's of pounds to renew egr's, and a few other parts that i can't remember. The dealer tried getting help towards the cost from Fiat and in the end it came to nothing.
He couldnt afford the repair so told them he'd collect the van and have a think what to do.
It was driveable but would go into limp more quite regularly. When he collected the van, one of the workshop technicians told him on the quiet to get the egr vavles mapped out/turned off.

He had this done at a Celtic Tuning dealer along with a new map for a bit more torque. The egr system was turned off (both valves) in the software, luckily the valves were closed so didnt need any blanking plates.
This was a few months ago and hes had no problems since, no eml light and runs perfect.

Now im thinking of getting mine done as a preventative measure.
Most tuning/remapping businesses offer this service.

 

[Fredastaire]

Thanks for that reply. Alas it is not to do with high mileages, mine began at 24,000 miles, I bought my van brand new so I know the mileage is accurate. Disabling the EGRs will stop the fault codes and limp. In recent times there have been posts on other forums informing us that the ministry are doing spot checks on commercial vehicles including checking software via the data port. Those being found to have remapped deleting EGR systems get hefty fines. However is this true?
The fault codes come because the LP EGR cooler tea strainer gauze gets blocked with soot, the butterfly throttle being active closes off the clean air from the air filter thus strangling the engine as the turbo can't now suck the air volume it requires.
What we actually need is to mechanically stop the butterfly throttle valve that is inside the LP EGR body at the back of the engine.The problem is that it's an all day job at a garage with hoist to even reach the LP EGR as it's a subframe off job. I think we need to remove the butterfly disc from it's spindle and leave the electric motor active. But will it work?

 

[theoneandonly]

Is the bottom of the LPEGR cooler connection to DPF easily disconnected without removing subframe (or with removing alternator) then it may be able to stick a a stick or wand up there and inject DPF cleaning fluids up there to clean the "Tea strainer". Is this at all feasible?

 

[Fredastaire]

Be interesting if somebody can answer this. From memory the bottom bracket of the cooler is secured with a bolt going into the differencial housing where the Rh driveshaft exits. At this point there is a short convoluted flex pipe to the exhaust connection T outlet. It needs a look underneath from ramps. It to snowy outside to contemplate an investigation daytime at the moment.
.
You would need to detach this pipe at the T piece end because of accessibility. I have read of another owner outside UK detaching at this point and capping off the exhaust, then adding a mesh filter to the flexi so the LP EGR can draw ambient clean (?) air. How clean is clean on the underside of a travelling van? Ummm

 

[BobSlo]

With removed sub frame it looks like this. My opinion, subframe has to be removed……

 

[Fredastaire]

The photo shows AFTER the dpf has been removed, which proves how difficult it is to reach the cooler and it's LP EGR.

 

[theoneandonly]

With removed sub frame it looks like this. My opinion, subframe has to be removed……

Thanks that's probably 4 hours at least then
Is the top yellow circle the turbo?