General Advice re buying a new Panda pls

[mb1357]

I am going to buy a Panda (Mk 3) . I want either an Active 1.1/1.2 or Multijet to qualify for the cheaper RFL.
Looking online and checking past MOT's most Panda s seem to all fail on corroded springs, faulty dampers or suspension/steering rubbers and or ball joints. Are these faults model/year specific?. If petrol 1.1 or 1.2. Would love a skydome but rare.
Must admit laening toward Multi Jet. Want the car for occasional use and it will be parked outside

 

[jrkitching]

Firstly, good choice of car.

The Panda is basically a sound used car purchase with far fewer niggling (and sometimes not-so-niggling) common faults than the much more fashionable but mechanically near-identical 500. Most common failure parts are cheap and readily available.

The 1.2 has significantly more torque low down than the 1.1, making it more comfortable to drive in traffic. The mJet is prone to camchain failure at higher mileages; if it does happen, it will likely write the car off beyond economic repair (there's a current thread here written by someone who's rebuilding an engine from such a car, and the repair is far from straightforward); so avoid any with even the slightest sign of chain rattle.

All are prone to rear beam corrosion after 10 years or so, especially around the spring pans, so check this area carefully before buying. Pattern aftermarket beams can be had for reasonable money for all except 4WD & 100HP models, so not necessarily a deal breaker if priced right, esp. if you can fix it yourself.

IMO best of all is the Euro4 60HP 1.2 dynamic eco from 2009-late 1020; £30RFL, everything you need and the nicest engine to drive of the lot. There's no meaningful performance advantage to be had from the later 69HP 1.2 engine.

 

[mb1357]

The Panda is basically a sound used car purchase with far fewer niggling (and sometimes not-so-niggling) common faults than the much more fashionable but mechanically near-identical 500. Most common failure parts are cheap and readily available.

The 1.2 has significantly more torque low down than the 1.1, making it more comfortable to drive in traffic. The mJet is prone to camchain failure at higher mileages; if it does happen, it will likely write the car off beyond economic repair (there's a current thread here written by someone who's rebuilding an engine from such a car, and the repair is far from straightforward); so avoid any with even the slightest sign of chain rattle.

All are prone to rear beam corrosion after 10 years or so, especially around the spring pans, so check this area carefully before buying. Pattern aftermarket beams can be had for reasonable money for all except 4WD & 100HP models, so not necessarily a deal breaker if priced right, esp. if you can fix it yourself.

IMO best of all is the Euro4 1.2 dynamic eco from 2009-late 1020; £30RFL, everything you need and the nicest engine to drive of the lot. There's no meaningful performance advantage to be had from the later 69HP 1.2 engine.

Super advice thank you; car is to be a keeper btw

 

[The Panda Nut]

Agree with Jrkitching. These are solid used cars if you but a decent example and the main points have been made . They are simple to repair and parts are plentiful. We are now up to 200,000 miles of Panda driving and have to date felt that the overall cost is good compared to the other makes we have had before. Its always best to service regularly. The hidden benefit that nearly all are agreed on is that Panda driving is just surprising fun. Everything seems to be where you want is and the controls are light. Just a really good drive and better than might be expected for a small and relatively cheap car. The suspension does need attention more often than some aother cars but the work os very easy to do so replacing the entire front suspension is not a hugely expensive job.

The newer model overlaps the old Mk3 in price so dont rule a newer model out if you are buying 2011 or 12. The newer model rides a little more smoothly.

The £30 road tax went on until April 2017.

 

[koalar]

Some parts aren’t easy to get on the 4x4

Corrosion in the sill just in front of the of the rear sill is pretty much the death nail. They can be patched an struggle on for another couple of years

Also depend on whether you do you own spannering. Parts are fairly cheap but labour isn’t. Seeing you asking in the pre 2012 I am guessing the budget isn’t great

Diesel and occasional use is a really bad idea

Cars of this age are rarely well kept

Most will need some kind of work

Thermostat
Arms
Shocks
Exhaust
Pads
Tyres
Plugs
Timing belt
Clutch
Oil
Axle

Recent receipt for major work such as belt or clutch is a bonus

a service history for the last few years is a bonus

A car that’s not lived in salt air is a bonus

They are a great simple cheap car if you can look after them yourself or know a reliable mechanic.

If you buy privately it would be nice to take someone that knows what the should sound and drive like. It’s not unusual for cars to go on sale with faults not worth repairing

Oil colour not black
Coolant tank condition inside not black or oil
Coolant colour nice pink

Would tell you a lot about its recent history

 

[rmjbn1]

I'd agree that rusty suspension and worn bushes are features of the Panda, any type or year.

Have a close look at the rear spring pans on any potential purchase. If they're not too bad, then they are easy to rust-proof, just keep on top of it.
If they are properly rotten, new replacements are £130...
...plus fitting. As koalar says, parts are cheap, but expect to have to replace a few components on a 10+ year old car, so it helps if you can DIY.

Common bush and ball-joint failures are both part of the front lower suspension arms, which are almost consumables on these cars - can last 5-10 years.
I got a pair of arms for £80, three bolts each side to replace... ...garage wanted £200 to do one.

Thankfully the bodies are galvanised and the engines are absolute gems. Surprisingly practical and great fun!

Agree with koalar, any modern diesel is ok for long motorway journeys if it can get hot enough for the EGR to do its thing, not great for short trips. A 60hp 09-10 1.2 with a skydome would be my ideal

 

[DaveMcT]

The M-Jet cam chain can be repaired for about £300 in parts that’s all in with oil filter and bits & bobs. It’s perfectly doable in the car.
However mine had two more problems -
Inlet manifold and valve ports severely clogged with EGR soot. That’s what forced my decision to remove the whole lump.
#4 Fuel injector well and truly jammed in place by baked on carbon.
I took the engine/gearbox lump out of the car so it could be worked on at any time in reasonable “comfort”. I had to buy a jacking type injector puller and I damaged the injector in the process. At least used are cheap enough.

If you find a diesel with noisy cam chain get it EXTREMELY cheap or walk away. Also lift off the air filter box and look deeply around the injectors. If there’s any hard carbon you can expect even more hassle.

 

[mb1357]

Thanks all! I am considering spending a bit more >6K and quite like the look of the Trekking. Engine choice is TwinAir or 75BHP diesel. I did see a youtube video online advising that the Mk 2 diesel engine whilst more powerful has a thinner and weaker cam chain. My wife had a twin air 500 from new. It had to have significant engine work done after a couple of years (fortunatly under warranty) something to do with balancing shaft. After 90K it had major isuues that no one could diagnose (I suspect ECU) and it was disposed off via we buyanycar so I am bit wary

 

[DaveMcT]

The 1.3 Multijet is actually a very well designed engine. The crank bearings are 1/2 in the cylinder block and 1/2 in an under-frame that closes the main bearings in one piece. It's far stronger than the separate bearing caps we normally see.

The twin cams operate roller rockers onto the valves. Big strong cams operate near vertical valves. The ports are designed to create a swirl (vortex) with the cylinder. Being a diesel the valve springs are not especially strong so don't heavily load the cam chain.

The single row cam chain is the only downside. I believe Fiat should have used a twin row chain. However its fatigue that fractures the links. Would a twin row actually last longer?

The short answer is replace the cam chain at 100,000 miles. Also replace the rockers and lifters while in there. It's a diesel so replace the oil VERY regularly. Mine had clearly been well looked after. There was no significant blow-by staining on the pistons, but oil control piston rings were clogged with soot. I would like to fit a 2 micron bypass filter but have not (yet) found a way to connect it into the oil system. Then there's the issue of finding suitable filters and housings.

TwinAir sounds great in theory - two cylinders reject less heat than four. However internal forces are high - hence the balance shafts and the wide spaced power pulses give the transmission a harder time - hence the dual mass flywheel - expensive and will fail around the time you need a new clutch. The 1.3 multijet has a solid flywheel.

The last trouble maker EGR affects all modern engines - the exhaust gas recirculation puts soot and crap back through the engine reducing efficiency and leading to clogged inlet manifold and cylinder head. Mine was especially bad but by no means unusual.

 

[mb1357]

The 1.3 Multijet is actually a very well designed engine. The crank bearings are 1/2 in the cylinder block and 1/2 in an under-frame that closes the main bearings in one piece. It's far stronger than the separate bearing caps we normally see.

The twin cams operate roller rockers onto the valves. Big strong cams operate near vertical valves. The ports are designed to create a swirl (vortex) with the cylinder. Being a diesel the valve springs are not especially strong so don't heavily load the cam chain.

The single row cam chain is the only downside. I believe Fiat should have used a twin row chain. However its fatigue that fractures the links. Would a twin row actually last longer?

The short answer is replace the cam chain at 100,000 miles. Also replace the rockers and lifters while in there. It's a diesel so replace the oil VERY regularly. Mine had clearly been well looked after. There was no significant blow-by staining on the pistons, but oil control piston rings were clogged with soot. I would like to fit a 2 micron bypass filter but have not (yet) found a way to connect it into the oil system. Then there's the issue of finding suitable filters and housings.

TwinAir sounds great in theory - two cylinders reject less heat than four. However internal forces are high - hence the balance shafts and the wide spaced power pulses give the transmission a harder time - hence the dual mass flywheel - expensive and will fail around the time you need a new clutch. The 1.3 multijet has a solid flywheel.

The last trouble maker EGR affects all modern engines - the exhaust gas recirculation puts soot and crap back through the engine reducing efficiency and leading to clogged inlet manifold and cylinder head. Mine was especially bad but by no means unusual.

Thanks Dave, I have decided to get a car with the diesel or 1.2 engine. If I get a diesel I will change oil myself regularly. At least parts will be more readily available and cheaper. Presumably one can clean the EGR valve??

 

[The Panda Nut]

The last trouble maker EGR affects all modern engines - the exhaust gas recirculation puts soot and crap back through the engine reducing efficiency and leading to clogged inlet manifold and cylinder head. Mine was especially bad but by no means unusual.

I agree with this!! I was advised to use a fuel cleaning additive after trouble with my Bravo's EGR. I followed this advice and never had any more issues. Its not cheap chucking Wynns or similar in the tank on a monthly basis (or so) but cheaper than the cost of an EGR by a long way.

 

[Yolanda]

Get a MOT Checker App on your phone, free on Playstore. I use one called car check details. Great for looking up past MOTs you can get a good idea if the cars been looked after by the advisorys eg having been done or not when the next MOTs done.

 

[The Panda Nut]

Best way to keep the EGR clean is a preventive use of fuel additive before you have a problem. You can buy EGR cleaner aerosol. If you use this its important to follow the instructions carefully and only use small squirts from teh can into the air intake, allowing the engine to regain a steady speed before applying more. It does work but is potentially harmful to the engine and should be used with care. Some of teh best new fuel additives definitely work but are quite expensive. This all makes my blood boil as these EGR things are fitted to achieve EURO standards adn those were compromised by cheating car makers and lazy burocrats in the corrupt testing centre.. We all paid for the rubbish thats been bolted to our engines and for the idiots who allowed the system to be corrupted. You have to ask what for these things are for. The only things that make modern engines unreliable are the emissions systems! Rant over... again... I hope you get it all running!

 

[varesecrazy]

Get a MOT Checker App on your phone, free on Playstore. I use one called car check details. Great for looking up past MOTs you can get a good idea if the cars been looked after by the advisorys eg having been done or not when the next MOTs done.

DVLA site does this..

 

[DaveMcT]

The diesel EGR valve is huge and gets fed exhaust gas preferentially to the turbo. However too much slow driving will soot up the engine, because there is not enough airflow to prevent soot settling out. The EGR solenoid has just two wires so I do not know how it would detect if a blanking plate was fitted.

 

[varesecrazy]

The diesel EGR valve is huge and gets fed exhaust gas preferentially to the turbo. However too much slow driving will soot up the engine, because there is not enough airflow to prevent soot settling out. The EGR solenoid has just two wires so I do not know how it would detect if a blanking plate was fitted.

I tried blanking a 2007 version of this motor.. got an error for 'low flow'

 

[koalar]

I tried blanking a 2007 version of this motor.. got an error for 'low flow'

Correct the ECU will detect this

There are kits to bypass this error by fooling the sensors but the engine map is now wrong

The EGR is opens when coolant temperature is greater than 20C and 80-300 RPMs

The ECU also monitors both the MAP and MAF sensors to adjust the EGR solenoid and monitor

Last time I looked about 5 years ago. There are companies that would remap the ECU so it would be both fuelled correctly and omit the EGR completely

However this would be both illegal and not health for the rest of use

 

[koalar]

Should read 800-3000 above no idea where the zeros vanished to

 

[DaveMcT]

I think "a solution" is a blanking plate with a hole that you can open out until there is no fault code. You could also modify the EGR outlet sparge pipe which conveniently blocks the inlet manifold intake port. Thinking as I write, a washer in that sparge pipe is probably what it needs. The EGR will see the pressure it wants but gas flow through the valve will be reduced. Make three washers with small, medium and large holes. One will not trigger an error so you can work up from the next smaller washer.

People say the EGR protects our health but I can't see that it does in practice. It's supposed to reduce NOx. However, my engine was so badly sooted it must have puthered smoke at the slightest bit of accelerator pedal. The system should at least have a particle filter on the recirculated gas, but that's more money so never happens.

 

[Yolanda]

I think "a solution" is a blanking plate with a hole that you can open out until there is no fault code. You could also modify the EGR outlet sparge pipe which conveniently blocks the inlet manifold intake port. Thinking as I write, a washer in that sparge pipe is probably what it needs. The EGR will see the pressure it wants but gas flow through the valve will be reduced. Make three washers with small, medium and large holes. One will not trigger an error so you can work up from the next smaller washer.

People say the EGR protects our health but I can't see that it does in practice. It's supposed to reduce NOx. However, my engine was so badly sooted it must have puthered smoke at the slightest bit of accelerator pedal. The system should at least have a particle filter on the recirculated gas, but that's more money so never happens.

The engine is acting like a filter it seems by getting sooted up. At the end of the day the EGR system is there to look after the environment allegedly, but to what cost to the environment is all the manufacturing of additives and new parts etc to fix the problems that they cause within the engine. The well used term carbon foot print comes to mind.