Technical Urgent help needed! Weird problem with my '05 x244 van.

[user77]

First of all, a big hello to the community!
Apologies for my first post being asking for help, but the problem I'm having has me completely stumped and is rather urgent.

My name is Nick and I recently purchased a 2005 Peugeot Boxer, which is essentially a rebadged Fiat Ducato (typ. x244). The car had been reasonably looked after mechanically and the guy who sold it to me had it for over a year with no issues at all. I also need to mention that the car has a Cobra aftermarket alarm fitted which works ok.

As soon as I got it I took it to be inspected and serviced and the mechanic said it was generally fine. About 10 days ago I went to a shop to run an errand and when I came back about 10 minutes later I came across a very bizarre problem. When I turned the key in the ignition the indicators on the dashboard jumped around a bit and a long buzzing noise was heard from the hazard lights switch on the dashboard. The ignition went tik-tik-tik and the clock reset itself.

It definitely sounded like a dead battery, but it was weird that it would go just like that from one moment to the next. Thankfully a service shop was close by and I managed to get them to come over with a battery booster. When we hooked it up, the car started up immediately and run fine.

The next day I went to get a new 100A battery (again the car was starting without hesitation all the times), and I installed it making sure to clean and tighten the connections to the poles.

I thought that was that but I was sorely mistaken.
Yesterday morning I started the car perfectly fine, went to work, stopped for a moment to pick up some supplies and when I tried to start the engine the same thing happened. A loud droning buzzing sound came from the flasher unit on the central console and the car refused to start at all.

The fuel pump is not priming, the engine is not turning at all. The key turns in the ignition but there are no lights on the dashboard, except from the clock which resets itself.

Even more bizarrely if I activate ANY light (eg. cabin overhead spotlights, hazard lights etc), the buzzing sound from the flasher unit starts again and only stops when I turn off the light. Worth mentioning that after a while the continuous buzzing has turned to a waning buzzzzzzzzz which dies out after a few seconds.

For the life of me it seems like the flasher unit is preventing power from reaching the ignition/dashboard etc.

I have experience in mechanical/electrical issues having rebuilt several motorcycles, but not so much when it comes to cars. I know that the hazard lights switch is housed in a small electronic unit which holds some relays and I do suspect that one or more of said relays might have met their maker.

I also know that if you remove that electronic unit, you have no turn signals and/or some other lights, but could that unit be wired in such a way that if it goes, the whole car is immobilized also?

To anyone who has the same model: Can you start the car with the flasher unit unplugged? Could anyone please check if it's not too much bother? The console comes out very easily: a few torx screws and it's out.

Here's what I've done so far:
- I measured the battery and it read 12.5 v resting.
- I tried to jump start the van with some jumper cables and a mate's car.
- I measured the battery again afterwards and it read 13.2 v.
- I had a look at the fuses and they seemed fine.
- I removed the flasher unit from the central console and it makes no difference. You turn the ignition key and absolutely nothing happens.

I'll go to the car again today to check the fuses and relays and try to get a video of the whole problem if it helps.

Any help would be greatly appreciated guys, because at the moment I am stranded in a small town 400 km from home, and even worse, in about a month I need the car to be reliable for a long journey.

Cheers,
Nick

 

[varesecrazy]

Hi Nick and welcome


It sounds related to the aftermarket alarm..
BUT try this anyway :

Its not unheard of for the main earth cable to fail internally

Add a 2nd battery to engine Black earth cable.. a jumplead from battery neg to engine : gearbox will suffice as a test


It is of course possible its a failure elsewhere.. but this is a clean and simple 5 minute test

There was an era of ducato build that had wiring issues located around the headlight..

Im sure somebody can fill in that detail

Good luck.. and keep us informed

Charlie

 

[user77]

Hi Charlie! I appreciate the warm welcome and the quick reply.

I just came back from the parking lot were I had to leave the car. (Thankfully it's only about 500 meters from the house). I think I may have made some progress.

1. I checked all the fuses both under the dashboard as well as in the engine bay. They were all perfectly fine. No signs of failing or bad connections.
2. I also checked the battery terminal connections and they were nice and tight.
3. The battery read 12.7 v.
4. I don't have a jumper cable handy (it belonged to my mate who came over yesterday), but I tried to check the earth by another way. I read the voltage between the + battery terminal and various points on the car's body and engine, as well as to the point where the negative wire is fastened to the car's body. They all showed 12.7 v.
Wouldn't that indicate a good earth connection?

As I was despairing I checked the ignition one more time, but this time the fuel pump primed up and the dashboard/odometer lit up properly! Very excited, I tried to start the car but the display immediately blanked out and didn't come on again.

Just at that moment, another van pulled in the parking lot and he happened to have jumper cables with him. We hooked up the battery and tried again. Once more, the dashboard lit up properly but again on ignition it died, only this time it started flashing the Battery icon and on subsequent tries the odometer showed the indication 'Batt'.

That to me is a classic symptom of a dead battery. Later on, I'll try again and this time I'll read the voltage drop of the battery. I'll be very happy if it turns out to be such a simple fix though...

 

[Anthony489]

Hi User77

Your symptoms suggest that sometimes a very low voltage is reaching some of the electrical items, which is upsetting them. The fact that turning on extra demand (lights) makes it worse suggests a high resistance (=bad connection) in series with the electrical feed. This high resistance is intermittent, so it's not a Fuse because once they blow they don't come back ! You have a good battery. I'm going to assume that the battery connections are OK, because you recently changed the battery.

I think at the moment the finger of suspicion points to the electrical part of the ignition switch assembly. I suggest you check this out. Try measuring voltage to ground on circuits AFTER the switch, whilst you turn the key and wriggle and tap the assembly. Bear in mind that on some vehicles there are circuits (e.g. the cabin blower fan) where the power is temporarily disabled whilst the key is in the cranking position, to relieve the load on the battery. If you haven't already, try and source a wiring diagram.

 

[user77]

Thanks for the info Anthony. How do you propose to measure voltage on the circuits after the ignition switch? Do you mean to remove the steering wheel/ignition plastic cover off and measure the wires? Since the wires are all insulated how could I measure the voltage?

 

[user77]

Also, I just had another thought regarding the premise that the battery is good; if it was OK and only certain parts are receiving low voltage, then why would the dashboard/indicators work only once after hooking up the battery to the other car and then be dead on subsequent tries to start the car?

Regarding the electrical diagram, I have the e-learn CD but the way they present the information in there is very confusing; I haven't been able to find a single diagram of the whole electrical system.

 

[Anthony489]

Hi

Yes you will need to remove the plastic shrouds to see and wriggle the ignition switch and the connections on the back.


You don't have to measure voltage directly at the switch, anywhere along the relevant wire from the switch will do the same job. The positive meter probe does have to contact the metal wire, connector pin or terminal somewhere. Sometimes you can push a thin probe down the back of a terminal until it contacts. Or if you have a strong sharp probe you can pierce the wire insulation and touch the wire. If none of that works, you might have to cut a wire and put in a small screw type terminal block to give something to connect to. Wrap insulation tape over it afterwards.


The negative meter probe can stay connected to a good earth on the body or engine block.

 

[user77]

Thanks for the reply. Removing the shrouds shouldn't be very difficult. I'll have a go at it tomorrow.

In the meantime I've brought the battery back to the house and hooked it up to a battery charger. I'll leave it on there overnight and have another crack at it tomorrow.
What bothers me is that the problem seems to be inconsistent. The only thing not changing is that the engine refuses to turn over at all.

When I went to remove the battery I tried to measure the voltage drop.
First time I turned the key in the ignition, the only light on the dashboard was the airbag light. Turning the ignition key had absolutely no effect and there was no voltage drop on the battery, which was showing 12.7 volts.

I switched off the ignition and turned it back on. This time all the dashboard lights came on properly, but again absolutely nothing when turning the key. Meh.

 

[Ocwobio]

Try using a single juper cable as an additional earth cable between battery negative and clen spot on engine- this sounds like an earthing issue.

 

[user77]

From the electrical diagram of the battery/ignition, it seems that I should be reading 12v directly from the battery on the red wires and 12v on the other wires when I switch on the ignition, correct?

 

[varesecrazy]

Try using a single juper cable as an additional earth cable between battery negative and clen spot on engine- this sounds like an earthing issue.

Not sure Nick did this yet..?

 

[Communicator]

From the electrical diagram of the battery/ignition, it seems that I should be reading 12v directly from the battery on the red wires and 12v on the other wires when I switch on the ignition, correct?

User77,

In my understanding the above is correct. I own a 2006 2.8JTD, and have printed most of the electrical diagrams from eLearn. As you say that the engine does not turn over, you may do better initially by using diagram E5010, "Starting and Recharging".

Ocwobio has suggested an earthing problem. On my x244 the battery negative is connected to chassis by a "flag" terninal on the RHS wheel arch below the battery. The same cable continues under the radiator to earth the engine block via a starter motor stud.

From the battery positive the circuit for essential items is via a 150A (orange) Mega fuse at the RH rear of the battery, to an M6 stud on the engine bay fusbox near the air filter. The ignition switch is supplied from this fusebox via a 30A maxi blade fuse. As you have probably deduced, the feed at the ignition switch is via pin 2 of the 3 pole connector "A", as above red wire.

For testing in the back of connectors, could you extend you meter probe with a straightened paper clip, suitably wrapped with any sort of adhesive tape?

 

[Anthony489]

Hi again user77

To help you understand the ignition switch:

There are 4 switch positions, Left to Right on the diagram

Park (Parking Lights)
Stop (OFF)
MAR (March or ON)
AVV (Avviamento or START, cranking)

The 12 Volt input is a red wire to Connector A, Pin 2
The 12 Volt output to the Starter Solenoid is a wire on Connector A, Pin 3. This is only live in the START position.

The 12 Volt output to the Engine Compartment Junction is an Orange wire on Connector A, Pin 1. This is live in the ON and START positions.


The 12 Volt output to the heater fan etc is a Light Blue wire on Connector B, Pin1. This only live in the ON position, and is disconnected during START.
The 12 Volt output to the Dashboard Junction is a Blue wire on Connector B, Pin 2. This is live in the ON and START positions.
The 12 Volt output to the Lights is a Blue wire on Connector B, Pin 3. This is live in the ON and START positions and also in the Park position.
There is another 12 Volt input on Connector B, Pin 4 to feed the lights in the ON and START positions.

You will see from the diagram that there are actually four switches, these are mechanically ganged together.

Note that when starting, the feed to the starter solenoid from the ignition switch is a medium current of perhaps 20 Amps. The solenoid does two things, it pulls the starter pinion into engagement with the flywheel and also closes the main high current contacts which carry perhaps 400 Amps. So if this solenoid current doesn't flow for some reason (or is too weak), the separate main starter circuit direct from the battery never gets switched on and the starter won't turn at all.

 

[user77]

Great points everyone. I really appreciate your taking the time help out a stranger.

Charlie, I didn't manage to do the additional earthing test yet. I hope I remember to try it out tomorrow morning when I go to put back the fully charged battery.

Communicator I hadn't noticed the 150A fuse on the battery. I'll try to check it out tomorrow among everything else.

Anthony, thanks for the detailed explanation.
I was thinking though... Could the lack of current at the solenoid also could cause a total blackout when I turn the ignition to start the engine?

Specifically, when the key is in the MAR position I have lights, turn signals, radio working, dashboard indications, odometer... the works.
BUT when I try to start the car all the indications on the dash go off and the odometer LCD blanks out.

Wouldn't that indicate a very dead battery?

 

[Anthony489]

Hi user77

As others suggest, I recommend you first replace or bypass (with one jump lead) the earth strap from engine block to body, just to eliminate it as a culprit.


If multiple things "die" when you move the key to START, it could be one of several things. Here's three I can think of:


The battery is nearly completely dead, and has such a high internal resistance that any attempt to draw more than a small current (like switching on the starter solenoid) causes its voltage to drop very low. The sort of symptoms you get are consistent with the voltage falling below about 6 volts. Check with a voltmeter across the battery terminals (right on the posts of the battery itself) and see what the voltage does when you switch from OFF to RUN and then START. It shouldn't drop by more than a fraction of a volt.


The battery is OK, but there is a high resistance (bad contact) somewhere else. Because multiple things are affected, this high resistance must be at a common point which is not far from the battery, before all the various circuits divide off. A voltage check at the input to the ignition switch should show no lower than 12 Volts. If that's OK, a voltmeter check at the solenoid feed terminal (the thinner one on the starter, not the main fat one) should still show about 12 volts when starting.


The ignition switch is faulty, and things which need a 12 volt supply in both the RUN and the START position are only getting it in the RUN position. A voltmeter on the relevant circuit will show this.

If you can, I recommend that ALL voltage checks are done with the negative voltmeter lead run back to the same point, the battery negative post. You might need a thin piece of insulated wire to extend the meter lead.

 

[Communicator]

Hi user77

As others suggest, I recommend you first replace or bypass (with one jump lead) the earth strap from engine block to body, just to eliminate it as a culprit.


If multiple things "die" when you move the key to START, it could be one of several things. Here's three I can think of:


The battery is nearly completely dead, and has such a high internal resistance that any attempt to draw more than a small current (like switching on the starter solenoid) causes its voltage to drop very low. The sort of symptoms you get are consistent with the voltage falling below about 6 volts. Check with a voltmeter across the battery terminals (right on the posts of the battery itself) and see what the voltage does when you switch from OFF to RUN and then START. It shouldn't drop by more than a fraction of a volt.


The battery is OK, but there is a high resistance (bad contact) somewhere else. Because multiple things are affected, this high resistance must be at a common point which is not far from the battery, before all the various circuits divide off. A voltage check at the input to the ignition switch should show no lower than 12 Volts. If that's OK, a voltmeter check at the solenoid feed terminal (the thinner one on the starter, not the main fat one) should still show about 12 volts when starting.


The ignition switch is faulty, and things which need a 12 volt supply in both the RUN and the START position are only getting it in the RUN position. A voltmeter on the relevant circuit will show this.

If you can, I recommend that ALL voltage checks are done with the negative voltmeter lead run back to the same point, the battery negative post. You might need a thin piece of insulated wire to extend the meter lead.

Hi Nick,

I have been reading Anthony's post above, and as it covers most of what I had been about to suggest, I will try not to echo his suggestions.

I think that Anthony may not be fully familiar with the battery earthing connections on the x244. They are not so likely to be the cause as the infamous earth strap of the x250. Still worth eliminating as suggested, if jump lead available. There was a thread earlier this year where the evidence pointed towards a main chassis earth problem on an x244, but the fault was bypassed and I do not remember the originator taking the investigation further.

In addition to the main chassis earth connection below the battery, the feed to M6 stud on the engine bay fusebox from the 150A fuse is very much in the common path. Please do take special care when testing in these areas.


Unless you have an assistant you are going to need extensions to both meter leads in order to monitor voltage at the battery terminals while turning the key.

 

[user77]

Check with a voltmeter across the battery terminals (right on the posts of the battery itself) and see what the voltage does when you switch from OFF to RUN and then START. It shouldn't drop by more than a fraction of a volt.

The battery is OK, but there is a high resistance (bad contact) somewhere else. Because multiple things are affected, this high resistance must be at a common point which is not far from the battery, before all the various circuits divide off. A voltage check at the input to the ignition switch should show no lower than 12 Volts. If that's OK, a voltmeter check at the solenoid feed terminal (the thinner one on the starter, not the main fat one) should still show about 12 volts when starting.

Anthony, I tried measuring the voltage drop of the battery yesterday together with a friend. The bizarre thing was that the voltage didn't budge AT ALL while my mate was starting the ignition. No sound from the engine bay, no voltage drop. It would indicate a faulty ignition switch, but then WHY the blackout of all electrical components in the car when you turn the key to Start?

Regarding the voltmeter check on the solenoid feed terminal, since the starter is buried all the way down in the engine, how can I access the terminal from the top with the meter?

Also could you point on the pic the terminal that I should be testing? Is it the thin tab on the smaller topside barrel?

In addition to the main chassis earth connection below the battery, the feed to M6 stud on the engine bay fusebox from the 150A fuse is very much in the common path. Please do take special care when testing in these areas.

How do you mean to test the feed to the M6 stud on the fusebox? Do I simply measure the voltage with the ingition off/on?
Also what do you mean by taking special care while testing these areas? Are you referring to high amperage that could potentially be hurtful? If so, what special care should I take? (Apologies for the noob questions, but as I've said, my mechanical skills when it comes to cars are rather limited).

 

[Communicator]

.

How do you mean to test the feed to the M6 stud on the fusebox? Do I simply measure the voltage with the ingition off/on? Also what do you mean by taking special care while testing these areas? Are you referring to high amperage that could potentially be hurtful? If so, what special care should I take? (Apologies for the noob questions, but as I've said, my mechanical skills when it comes to cars are rather limited).

Checking from the M6 stud to preferably battery negative will remove the need to check the mega 150A fuse at the battery positive. I was concerned about the possibility of getting burnt due to the possible high current if you were to make an accidental short to chassis. If checking tightness of M6 stud, disconnect battery negative first. Also quite possible to drop rear cover retaining nut of fusebox cover, thus adding to your problems.

I agree with your comments as to the accessibility of the starter motor, while turning the key. The solenoid terminal is the smaller of the two connections. M5 stud, 8mm spanner if my memory is correct. On my x244, there is a plastic cover over the terminals.

 

[user77]

IT'S ALIVE!!

So I just got back from the parking lot, only this time I brought the car with me! (You can tell I'm happy, I guess...)

I hooked up the fully charged battery, tightened up the battery connectors and added a jumper cable from the negative pole to the engine lug for good measure.
The engine fired up immediately and without any hesitation. Everything came online as it should: the fuel pump primed up, the starter motor turned right away and the engine fired as it should.

I will tear down the ignition switch to check it out, but I think it was the battery being depleted. One thing I failed to mention in the beginning was that the car has a reversing camera hooked up which you can turn on from a dashboard switch, even with the ignition turned off.
On Saturday morning when I went to get the car that switch had been left on overnight. I didn't mention it because it didn't make sense that a tiny camera with some led lights would run down a brand new 100A battery, but there you go. I will make sure to rewire the damn thing do it cannot be accidentally left on overnight again.

Thanks to everyone! I will report back with the ignition switch readings if possible.

 

[user77]

So, as promised I took apart the ignition switch and did all the relevant tests that people suggested above.

Reading the M6 connector on the engine fusebox it was showing full voltage.

Similarly, all the pins in the Connector A of the ignition switch read exactly as per Anthony's specs.
Pin 1 -> +12v @ ON & Start
Pin 2 -> +12v constant
Pin 3 -> +12v @ Start

As for Connector B, I had some differences but I'm not worried ATM.
Anthony mentioned that all pins would have voltage in the ON position. I read 12v only at pins 1 & 2 (fan & dashboard).
Pins 3 and 4 read 0, but since they are both feeds for the lights, it could be that they didn't read because I had the lights off at the time.

Anyway, long story short, the issue looks to have been resolved. I'll keep an eye out and report back in case something changes.