Technical Twinair flywheel conversion?

[Louie Bee]

Hi all, it’s sounding like my Panda Twinair Duel Mass Flywheel (DMF) has given up on me.

This potentially makes the car scrap as it’s not really worth doing if replacing the DMF and clutch. I was wondering if anyone has made the conversion to a single mass / solid flywheel in a Twinair as yet?



Being a 62 plate I’m not 100% sure it has a DMF as I’ve read some early TA were single mass anyway?



Anyone replaced their own T/A clutch? I replaced the clutch in my 999cc Uno a good few years ago so am thinking of taking it on, but put off by the lack of manuals available.

 

[bugsymike]

Don't know specifically about Twinair, but if it actually is a dual mass flywheel issue, I have fitted good second hand one in the past so you may be able to go that route.
Some argue that fitting a solid flywheel in place of DMF could cause early gearbox failure, I am not aware of any thing conclusive in that direction and all cars in the past were solid flywheels.
It may be worth stripping it to see if that or something else causing the problem.

 

[Louie Bee]

Thanks for the reply @bugsymike

I rung a FIAT dealer and they told me a price for the flywheel, and a recon Flywheel and non genuine and they said it's DMF

I found an online FIAT EEPER which is new enough to cover my Panda by registration number and it says Flywheel is FIAT part number 55225428 and that is a solid flywheel.... My Panda has Manuf. date: 22/3/2012

That could be why my local parts supplier couldn't find a flywheel for my Panda as who would replace a solid flywheel?

Who is to say my Panda is on the original engine so who knows what's lurking in that bellhousing?

 

[bugsymike]

At the end of the day it is down to cost and what is a available.

 

[Liteboy]

Our 64 plate twin air Trekking had the dual mass flywheel go on it about two years ago and it had only done around 30k miles, we had no choice but to poke up with the cost of Fiat doing it and from what I can remember it was about £850 so not cheap but at the time cheaper than a new car. Luckily my wife noticed it on her way to work which also happened to pass the Fiat dealership, if she had of continued on who knows what other damage it could have done. The new flywheel etc were and improved part as they are a known weakness. Don't think there is an alternative and obviously a second hand one might also be liable to fail depending on age. I can't remember when Fiat started to fit the improved one though.

 

[bugsymike]

The vehicle I fitted a S/H DMF to was an 05 Doblo1.9JTD with 220K miles on it that I bought for £300, I fitted it along with a new clutch kit and it ran with no issues apart from a Crank Position Sensor for another 4 years including towing a trailer etc. it was still running happily when I sold it and made the mistake of buying a 2010 Doblo Maxi 1.6 diesel with half the mileage and loads more grief!

 

[Louie Bee]

Had some interesting quotes. one local dealer made the FIAT dealership quote look reasonable at £1116 - yes from a local independent.


I've had a load of quotes and the first one turned out to be the best.


I think the DMF situation is clouding the issue. Even 2 separate FIAT dealers conflict (one I asked for parts who told me it was a DMF, the other I asked for a job quote to see how near to £1116 they were)


I've settled for a garage willing to fit a new kit I supply and they told me that if they are fitting a DMF that the clutch kit must be the same brand (both LUK or whoever). They told me who has the DMF & clutch kit in stock (combined kit is not available anywhere local) so I can buy the DMF if needed. They want one on hand in case they find a DMF lurking under my bell housing as it ties up the ramp while waiting for one to arrive.


I asked the garage nicely if they will be removing the driveshafts from the gearbox (some leave the cups in the DIF) as I have a slight oil leak from the DIF...


They suggested fitting new dif & input shaft seals while the gearbox was off if I can get them (yup about a fiveer each) – with no extra fitting cost as it's so easy while the box is off. Bingo they answered my next question as I fathomed it’s easy at that point.

Meanwhile at their supplier just around the corner from the garage, Clutch kit alone is £120, clutch kit with DMF is £455 - so that's 335 for the DMF I guess...


When I asked how much the clutch without the flywheel was they had a moment and decided there was some system error as they DMF wasn't for my car & it's the same clutch for both solid & DMF panda.


If no DMF I’ll get change from £500 with an LUK clutch, new gear oil and gearbox oil seals fitted.


Wonder if I could push for a rear end oil seal too just for good measure. 55229956 is the part number but is probably a press fit. Think I’ll leave the engine side be.

 

[bugsymike]

I would double check what is said about the same clutch for DMF and non DMF as recently someone I know had a Seat where it wasn't the same!
Last garage seems quite helpful and I can understand them not wanting to tie a ramp up waiting for parts that a customer has possibly supplied wrong

 

[Bonefish Blues]

As an observation from someone who has also been doing this due diligence recently, it seems much more tortuous getting the right parts with Pandas (maybe Fiats in general, not sure?) than any other brand I've run.

 

[Louie Bee]

As an observation from someone who has also been doing this due diligence recently, it seems much more tortuous getting the right parts with Pandas (maybe Fiats in general, not sure?) than any other brand I've run.

What... there are other brands of car out there?? I've had 7 Unos, a Brava a Seicento, a 127 and 3 Panda... Never anything other than FIAT

 

[The Panda Nut]

Don't know specifically about Twinair, but if it actually is a dual mass flywheel issue, I have fitted good second hand one in the past so you may be able to go that route.
Some argue that fitting a solid flywheel in place of DMF could cause early gearbox failure, I am not aware of any thing conclusive in that direction and all cars in the past were solid flywheels.
It may be worth stripping it to see if that or something else causing the problem.

I agree changing to a standard flywhell is not likely to be a good idea with the twinair. Its meant to and does pull from low revs and its clearly a harsh vibratory environment hence the dual mass flywheel. My understanding from other threads on here is that the flywheel was modified a while ago changing the specification of the bearings and (hopefully) extending the life from poor to acceptable. New flywheels should have the new type of bearings. I am paranoid about smooth gear changing with my TA and dont like anyone else using it because they dont understand the mechanical issues, alhtough the women of the family are all decent drivers. If I had a four cylinder car or a 6 etc I would be happy to change the flywheel for a solid one, but the TA being a funny beast makes me favour sticking with it. I hate theDMF idea as its a complication too far, and not strictly necessary. I had a Mitsubishi Galant a number of years ago with balancer shafts in the engine. A balancer shaft belt failed and cost a fortune to fix and Im quite sure that while it was a nice to have thing it wasnt necessary. As with all things simple is often best. At least in terms of reliability.

 

[Louie Bee]

I agree changing to a standard flywhell is not likely to be a good idea with the twinair. Its meant to and does pull from low revs and its clearly a harsh vibratory environment hence the dual mass flywheel. My understanding from other threads on here is that the flywheel was modified a while ago changing the specification of the bearings and (hopefully) extending the life from poor to acceptable. New flywheels should have the new type of bearings. I am paranoid about smooth gear changing with my TA and dont like anyone else using it because they dont understand the mechanical issues, alhtough the women of the family are all decent drivers. If I had a four cylinder car or a 6 etc I would be happy to change the flywheel for a solid one, but the TA being a funny beast makes me favour sticking with it. I hate theDMF idea as its a complication too far, and not strictly necessary. I had a Mitsubishi Galant a number of years ago with balancer shafts in the engine. A balancer shaft belt failed and cost a fortune to fix and Im quite sure that while it was a nice to have thing it wasnt necessary. As with all things simple is often best. At least in terms of reliability.

I thnk the Twinair also has a balancer shaft, but it's gear driven so no belt / chain to worry about - according to the EEPER part number is 55228588 and pic is here https://www.athousakis.gr/en/antibaro/55228587-55228588-for-fiat.html

I'm not going to swap out the Flywheel tec for the sake of £100 or so it would cost for a new solid mass vs new DMF.

 

[Louie Bee]

Picked up the non DMF clutch kit then booked car in. They said i need both kits before they would start the job and I can return any unused bits.

Went back to buy the dmf clutch kit and explained the situation. The parts guy was a bit confused as the dmf clutch kit was no longer in stock. Then he replied he had solid it to me already lol

So he sold me the DMF and mounting bolt kit for slightly under £340.

I'll ask for the bits removed before they start as im interested in the old clutch & DMF condition i(if we have a DMF.

Some pictures of my panda boot (input shaft & dif seals due Friday)...

 

[The Panda Nut]

Picked up the non DMF clutch kit then booked car in. They said i need both kits before they would start the job and I can return any unused bits.

Went back to buy the dmf clutch kit and explained the situation. The parts guy was a bit confused as the dmf clutch kit was no longer in stock. Then he replied he had solid it to me already lol

So he sold me the DMF and mounting bolt kit for slightly under £340.

I'll ask for the bits removed before they start as im interested in the old clutch & DMF condition i(if we have a DMF.

Some pictures of my panda boot (input shaft & dif seals due Friday)...

£340 sounds like a result. This is the kit I would fit if disaster strikes Noop. LUK supplies some of the original clutch parts if not all so just as good as Fiat bits.

 

[porta]

I might have missed this before but, just for someone to clarify:
Are the DMF issues related to pre 2017 panda/500, and were rectified on later vehicles?

 

[Louie Bee]

£340 sounds like a result. This is the kit I would fit if disaster strikes Noop. LUK supplies some of the original clutch parts if not all so just as good as Fiat bits.

£340 was just dmf and mounting bolts. Clutch kit was another £120..

There is a kit that contains both dmf & clutch kit that's slightly cheaper but seems to be impossible to source (probably nla).

But had i got the full kit and then found a solid mass flywheel id not be able to get a refund on the unused bits of the kit (the DMF) so then what?

 

[The Panda Nut]

A right royal pain in the butt. This poor parts availability is not good and representative of Fiat it seems. Your £460 for the clutch / flywheel is a lot for a clutch job but bad rather than re-mortgage.

I have just found the front of my 2019 Cross has been hit by something and the lower bumper destroyed. Im dreading the fight to get the part required to get it repaired. I think I will just grit my tetth and ask fiat for a price, The one second hand bumper I can find so fat is no less than £1500 plus VAT.....

 

[porta]

A right royal pain in the butt. This poor parts availability is not good and representative of Fiat it seems. Your £460 for the clutch / flywheel is a lot for a clutch job but bad rather than re-mortgage.

I have just found the front of my 2019 Cross has been hit by something and the lower bumper destroyed. Im dreading the fight to get the part required to get it repaired. I think I will just grit my tetth and ask fiat for a price, The one second hand bumper I can find so fat is no less than £1500 plus VAT.....

Check the radiator pack, it’s much more vulnerable than the 169 set up…thinking of fabricating something up, to drop down from the bumper reinforcement bar

 

[Louie Bee]

A right royal pain in the butt. This poor parts availability is not good and representative of Fiat it seems. Your £460 for the clutch / flywheel is a lot for a clutch job but bad rather than re-mortgage.

I have just found the front of my 2019 Cross has been hit by something and the lower bumper destroyed. Im dreading the fight to get the part required to get it repaired. I think I will just grit my tetth and ask fiat for a price, The one second hand bumper I can find so fat is no less than £1500 plus VAT.....

That's just for the DMF & Clutch kit... more for fitting, DIF seals, Input shaft seal & Fresh gear oil.

For your bumper have you tried finding the FIAT part number in the online EEPER and looking on ebay.it (Itallian ebay) quite often Uno Turbo bits used to show up but only if you know the part number. My 62 plate Lounge shows as part number 735555165 and even english ebay shows if at under £70 in a prime coat

The 2019 cross (seen one on auto trader in dark green and put the reg into FIAT eeper) has lower trim 735604879 https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2047675.m570.l1313&_nkw=735604879+&_sacat=0

735604984 (lower pannel shop4parts has) google for image
51978450 (another lowr trim)... hmm there is quite a few more bits so perhaps you don't need a full bumper as is seems to have 18 items on the parts list so serviced in many bits. this seems like a sub assy of a few of the above bits for example https://archiwum.allegro.pl/oferta/dokladka-zderzaka-przod-fiat-panda-3-iii-cross-i12395626804.html

 

[porta]

Yes Louie…the bumper is made up of a jigsaw of parts, the hardest to find are the small black bumper corners, that continue the black line of the wheel arch…Fiat Uk say ‘they don’t carry them’ so special order