The Ford Fiesta has been cancelled, bad news for Fiat?

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The Ford Fiesta has been cancelled, bad news for Fiat?

AndyRKett

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You may have seem in the news that the Ford Fiesta is to end production, with Ford to concentrate on electric models.
so why you might think is this bad news for Fiat?

Well the Fiat 500e is fiats first proper electric car and sales have been pretty poor to be honest, only about 6,000 sold to date.
The fiesta is one of Fords most successful models selling often in excess of 100,000 per year, that has dropped in recent years likely not helped by covid and the push to all electric cars and yet Ford are killing the model. At the moment It remains to be seen if Ford will release a fiesta sized electric replacement, but here is my theory why this isnt good news for Fiat.


Fiat mainly makes small cars, their target market is small cars and they are not really in the main stream compared to Ford and BMW, sales are fairly small. They have been flogging the 500 For years to keep their head afloat and if the electric 500e doesn’t do well, then that is bad news for their future.

if a company like ford have decided there isn’t a market for the fiesta in an electric form, then this may mean electric car buyers are not interested in really small cars. To be honest the whole point in a small car is to cut Costs and save money but he 500e is a £30,500 car, which is far from cheap and cheerful.

my theory is a lot of car manufacturers wI’ll be pitching their smallest cars around the size of the VW iD4 or Ford MACH e or Vauxhall Mokka, a family sized car that is more practical across a larger range of uses than something ultra small like the 500.

Fiat have always been slow to respond and that doesn’t seem to have changed since the Peugeot merger with no new cars announced or even rumoured yet. Peugeot and Vauxhall already have new electric cars in the mid range, do they want to bring further competitors to the market?

is the death of the fiesta the first in the death of the small car….

are future “small cars” going the way cars have been going for years and simply getting bigger and bigger?
 

bugsymike

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You may have seem in the news that the Ford Fiesta is to end production, with Ford to concentrate on electric models.
so why you might think is this bad news for Fiat?

Well the Fiat 500e is fiats first proper electric car and sales have been pretty poor to be honest, only about 6,000 sold to date.
The fiesta is one of Fords most successful models selling often in excess of 100,000 per year, that has dropped in recent years likely not helped by covid and the push to all electric cars and yet Ford are killing the model. At the moment It remains to be seen if Ford will release a fiesta sized electric replacement, but here is my theory why this isnt good news for Fiat.


Fiat mainly makes small cars, their target market is small cars and they are not really in the main stream compared to Ford and BMW, sales are fairly small. They have been flogging the 500 For years to keep their head afloat and if the electric 500e doesn’t do well, then that is bad news for their future.

if a company like ford have decided there isn’t a market for the fiesta in an electric form, then this may mean electric car buyers are not interested in really small cars. To be honest the whole point in a small car is to cut Costs and save money but he 500e is a £30,500 car, which is far from cheap and cheerful.

my theory is a lot of car manufacturers wI’ll be pitching their smallest cars around the size of the VW iD4 or Ford MACH e or Vauxhall Mokka, a family sized car that is more practical across a larger range of uses than something ultra small like the 500.

Fiat have always been slow to respond and that doesn’t seem to have changed since the Peugeot merger with no new cars announced or even rumoured yet. Peugeot and Vauxhall already have new electric cars in the mid range, do they want to bring further competitors to the market?

is the death of the fiesta the first in the death of the small car….

are future “small cars” going the way cars have been going for years and simply getting bigger and bigger?
As you say, no longer small economical family cars for the less well heeled, just more of a fashion statement like the jumbo "Minis" etc.
Given the high weight increase having to cart around batteries able to give even a moderate range compared with the ICE versions, the way they are going maybe the DVLA will be asking for HGV license to drive;) .
It's not just the purchase price, consumables such as tyres able to cope with the extra weight are more expensive.
 

eeeno

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Small diesels disappeared just some years ago because they became unprofitable due to emission control devices needed. Big expensive batteries are needed for electric cars and that makes small cars less desirable in my opinion. Common folks aren't going to be driving cars in the green future anyway so enjoy. :unsure:
 

Didge3

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Only 6k sold shocks me, I see them all the time in my area.
I guess Ford can see how apparent it is that their new cars like the Puma and the Ecosport are outselling the Fiesta, to make the Fiesta an EV it would have to be a half baked ICE conversion (like the stellantis cars) or a full EV based platform (like the 500e), creating a new platform on their not as well selling car would be expensive so perhaps I would guess they're focusing their efforts on the best sellers and shedding costs by dropping the Fiesta? Purely speculation of course. If anything this could benefit Fiat, if you want a small car the options are getting thinner. I don't think you can get a new e-Up! anymore so what does that leave, the Zoe and the stallantis cars (e208, Corsa e and eC4). I'm not suggesting the 500e is going to take off in sales after the Fiesta has gone, many people are not ready to go electric but there might be hope yet, its whether Fiat can keep pedalling the 500e for long enough that material prices come down and demand for EVs goes up?
 

Rocinante

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is the death of the fiesta the first in the death of the small car….

are future “small cars” going the way cars have been going for years and simply getting bigger and bigger?
I find it difficult to accept that there isn't a market for small cars, in whatever form that takes. The Corsa is the UK's best selling car, to give an indication of the market. The Fiesta dropped out the top 10 a couple of years ago, and I think this has to be a mis-step by Ford.
 
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Rocinante

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Rocinante

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Rocinante

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So in the top 10 best selling cars in Europe in September 2022, are the Peugeot 208, Toyota Yaris, Renault Clio, and the Fiat 500, and the Dacia Sandero, taking half the spots in the top 10.

Ford - 'There is no market for small cars ! We're dumping the Fiesta'.

I can't see this as being market led, but assuming Ford know what they're doing, and have various reasons for the move, I assume Ford employ some experts, with perhaps more knowledge of the global market they operate in and the direction they want to take their business.
The alternate is they've mis-stepped and mistakenly predicted the end of the small car, so didn't put the money in to the development for the new model Fiesta which is now due, and you can't just turn out a new car at the click of your fingers.

 
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AndyRKett

AndyRKett

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Small diesels disappeared just some years ago because they became unprofitable due to emission control devices needed. Big expensive batteries are needed for electric cars and that makes small cars less desirable in my opinion. Common folks aren't going to be driving cars in the green future anyway so enjoy. :unsure:
This is of course nonsense, The cars made to meet euro 6 standards (diesels) mainly met the standards without defeat devices, the controversy surrounds euro4 and 5 cars mainly. actually, it was the larger cars that had problems, small diesels didn't have problems, but the public (media) view of diesels was so bad, and everyone was pushing petrol as being more environmentally sound, that a lot of manufacturers dropped diesel options.
Putting two identical cars with the same power output side by side one diesel and one petrol, I'd still argue that there are much more benefits to the diesel than the petrol.

Modern Euro 6 rules require a diesel car to not put out any more harmful emissions than the same petrol version. As others have commented, the Corsa is now the best selling car in Europe, maybe part of why this has come about, is because you can still buy one with a diesel engine.
The 500 is europes top selling EV apparently..

Just speaks volumes about 'the market'
To me.
I think its already been stated Tesla takes the number 1 and 2 spots, however, the 500e only came out last year. people may have ordered them last year and the chip shortages may have delayed delivery till this year. There is a lot going on in the world right now so this might not be a 100% indication of how good sales have been, as we also know with fiat, they might sell very well in Italy but they might (like here in the UK) not be selling well at all elsewhere? sadly these charts don't break things down to sale by country.

But regardless, that would seem to put them in a really good place, even if numbers are relatively small at the minute, if they can keep at the head of the pack as the volumes inevitably grow, they'll be doing pretty well.
Now here is the thing. At the moment, people might be rushing out to buy one because they are dedicated to fiat and fiat have not brought out a new 500 since it first launched in 2007 (i'm not counting facelifts) (also covid stopped a lot of people buying new cars) People are rushing out to get something new after a long time, but once those egger customers are out of the way will sales stay up? We also have to consider everything else that's going on in the world right now and chip supply issues are causing major problems across the industry, therefore fiat could be circumventing this with a relatively simple car. What you can't ignore is that £30,500 price tag for a car that 10 years ago (The fiat 500 I mean) would have cost you £10,000

The 500 sits in a very small share of the market. maybe really the Mini is the only competitor, which suffers from a serious range issue, so that favors the 500 but again this could be skewing the numbers as a relatively small number of people who want a small funky car flock to the 500e and the market dries up once they have one.

What you have to look at is not what the one or two best selling cars are individually, but look at what the best-selling cars are, the trends.
Model Y a family sized SUV
Model 3 a family sized saloon car
VW ID4, a medium family SUV

Kia e-Niro.
Skoda Enyaq iV
Hyundai Kona Electric
Hyundai IONIQ 5
Volkswagen ID.3
Kia EV6.....etc,

These are the cars making up the bulk of the electric car sales, bigger Focus/Golf sized family cars, or medium sized SUVs there are few small car options and of the small cars, sales might look good (electric models) but that's not where the main buyers are shopping, there might be a market for a particular car, but how big is that market and how long can you string them out on the same model, once that percentage of the market have bought there 500e on a PCP or lease for 4 years, are they going to come back and buy another one, especially where the prices are higher and the maintenance is lower, people hold onto electric cars much longer.

Currently you can get the following cars cheaper than the 500e
VW id3
Nissan Leaf
MG ZS EV (SUV)
Mini Electric
Hyundai Kona
Peugeot E208
Honda E,
All of which are much more car for your money.
 

bugsymike

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This is of course nonsense, The cars made to meet euro 6 standards (diesels) mainly met the standards without defeat devices, the controversy surrounds euro4 and 5 cars mainly. actually, it was the larger cars that had problems, small diesels didn't have problems, but the public (media) view of diesels was so bad, and everyone was pushing petrol as being more environmentally sound, that a lot of manufacturers dropped diesel options.
Putting two identical cars with the same power output side by side one diesel and one petrol, I'd still argue that there are much more benefits to the diesel than the petrol.

Modern Euro 6 rules require a diesel car to not put out any more harmful emissions than the same petrol version. As others have commented, the Corsa is now the best selling car in Europe, maybe part of why this has come about, is because you can still buy one with a diesel engine.

I think its already been stated Tesla takes the number 1 and 2 spots, however, the 500e only came out last year. people may have ordered them last year and the chip shortages may have delayed delivery till this year. There is a lot going on in the world right now so this might not be a 100% indication of how good sales have been, as we also know with fiat, they might sell very well in Italy but they might (like here in the UK) not be selling well at all elsewhere? sadly these charts don't break things down to sale by country.


Now here is the thing. At the moment, people might be rushing out to buy one because they are dedicated to fiat and fiat have not brought out a new 500 since it first launched in 2007 (i'm not counting facelifts) (also covid stopped a lot of people buying new cars) People are rushing out to get something new after a long time, but once those egger customers are out of the way will sales stay up? We also have to consider everything else that's going on in the world right now and chip supply issues are causing major problems across the industry, therefore fiat could be circumventing this with a relatively simple car. What you can't ignore is that £30,500 price tag for a car that 10 years ago (The fiat 500 I mean) would have cost you £10,000

The 500 sits in a very small share of the market. maybe really the Mini is the only competitor, which suffers from a serious range issue, so that favors the 500 but again this could be skewing the numbers as a relatively small number of people who want a small funky car flock to the 500e and the market dries up once they have one.

What you have to look at is not what the one or two best selling cars are individually, but look at what the best-selling cars are, the trends.
Model Y a family sized SUV
Model 3 a family sized saloon car
VW ID4, a medium family SUV

Kia e-Niro.
Skoda Enyaq iV
Hyundai Kona Electric
Hyundai IONIQ 5
Volkswagen ID.3
Kia EV6.....etc,

These are the cars making up the bulk of the electric car sales, bigger Focus/Golf sized family cars, or medium sized SUVs there are few small car options and of the small cars, sales might look good (electric models) but that's not where the main buyers are shopping, there might be a market for a particular car, but how big is that market and how long can you string them out on the same model, once that percentage of the market have bought there 500e on a PCP or lease for 4 years, are they going to come back and buy another one, especially where the prices are higher and the maintenance is lower, people hold onto electric cars much longer.

Currently you can get the following cars cheaper than the 500e
VW id3
Nissan Leaf
MG ZS EV (SUV)
Mini Electric
Hyundai Kona
Peugeot E208
Honda E,
All of which are much more car for your money.
Electric cars may be the future, but they are a long way from being a poor families transportation like the 500, Mini and 2CV etc. were specifically designed for and gave them their appeal and longevity.
 

StevenRB45

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I don't know how much to read into this taking a step back from the Fiesta.

Ford Europe has been a loss making enterprise for years. They stopped people ordering Fiestas months ago (group stock only) and would only allow them to order Pumas as they are more profitable and they have limited amount of chips.

The car industry has been affected chip shortage but Ford has been absolutely crippled by it, there's literally fields of F150s and Broncos you can see from space waiting for chips to finish infotainment systems etc.

Without this revenue they are in trouble globally as Ford makes it's money on big cars and trucks in the US. The fiesta is best described as an irrelevant side hustle against this back drop. They have basically 1 viable electric car which is competing against all the other big fast electric cars (who'd have thought the market in 60k+ electric MPVs would be so well served?) when their main rivals have getting on for full ranges of electric cars in Europe.

They don't have the money to play this game at the moment.. everything they have to sell is either backlogged or vapourware.

The Current Fiesta isn't that profitable they also went the wrong way in development in that they built another mk7. While winning all the group tests by being fun to drive is a strategy..the popularity of SUV style cars suggests punters don't give a stuff. What they would care about is it was significantly smaller inside than the similarly expensive Polo, much more expensive than a C3 or bit crap inside and outside compared to 208. The Corsa sat in the middle but you could actually go to a dealer and buy one.

Unlike PSA..I refuse to use the other name..and VAG who badge engineer to the point of infinity the Fiesta is basically stand alone and they don't sell them outside of Europe any more. All the Fiesta based cars except the Puma are dead so the replacement would be very expensive and current one is not particularly competitive unless you're a journo.

To me it's a business decision along with killing the Focus, it's not that people wouldn't buy them..it's they don't want to use the 3 microchips a month they have in low margin product when as a company they are currently shafted.

Traditional car market share will fall...simply because if you had one choice sector..but now you have 2 and similar number of customers the choice that was available first will lose market share.
 

Rocinante

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Now here is the thing. At the moment, people might be rushing out to buy one because they are dedicated to fiat and fiat have not brought out a new 500 since it first launched in 2007 (i'm not counting facelifts) (also covid stopped a lot of people buying new cars) People are rushing out to get something new after a long time, but once those egger customers are out of the way will sales stay up? We also have to consider everything else that's going on in the world right now and chip supply issues are causing major problems across the industry, therefore fiat could be circumventing this with a relatively simple car. What you can't ignore is that £30,500 price tag for a car that 10 years ago (The fiat 500 I mean) would have cost you £10,000

The 500 sits in a very small share of the market. maybe really the Mini is the only competitor, which suffers from a serious range issue, so that favors the 500 but again this could be skewing the numbers as a relatively small number of people who want a small funky car flock to the 500e and the market dries up once they have one.

What you have to look at is not what the one or two best selling cars are individually, but look at what the best-selling cars are, the trends.
Model Y a family sized SUV
Model 3 a family sized saloon car
VW ID4, a medium family SUV

Kia e-Niro.
Skoda Enyaq iV
Hyundai Kona Electric
Hyundai IONIQ 5
Volkswagen ID.3
Kia EV6.....etc,

These are the cars making up the bulk of the electric car sales, bigger Focus/Golf sized family cars, or medium sized SUVs there are few small car options and of the small cars, sales might look good (electric models) but that's not where the main buyers are shopping, there might be a market for a particular car, but how big is that market and how long can you string them out on the same model, once that percentage of the market have bought there 500e on a PCP or lease for 4 years, are they going to come back and buy another one, especially where the prices are higher and the maintenance is lower, people hold onto electric cars much longer.

Currently you can get the following cars cheaper than the 500e
VW id3
Nissan Leaf
MG ZS EV (SUV)
Mini Electric
Hyundai Kona
Peugeot E208
Honda E,
All of which are much more car for your money.
I'm dubious about some of your conclusions here regarding the small car market, if I'm reading you correctly that you're suggesting that the small car market is disappearing because there is a trend towards SUV and family cars in the electric market. As I mentioned, if you look at current car sales across Europe, small cars take half the top 10, these people buying small cars don't disappear overnight, if available, these people will still be looking for a small car, whether that's for cost reasons or just because they want a small car.
However, you've focused on electric sales, as this could well be an insight in to the future, but even here, there's 3 of the top 10, are small cars, (208, 500 and Zoe). Are we just waiting on the manufacturers to catch up and volume to go up so prices to come down to suit small cars. There will always be people needing the cheapest transport available, and building a smaller car will always be cheaper than building a comparable bigger car.

We'll just have to wait and see I suppose.
 

StevenRB45

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There is some technically interesting stuff coming out of PSA at the moment.

While the market is heading towards 15 tonne batteries that do 0-60 before you've opened the drivers door their more recent concept was the Oli. An electric vehicle with a 70mph top speed aiming for 24k on the road.

They've also confirmed the C3 will be getting replaced, will have an all electric option and that they are aiming at maintaining current price positioning in the market so cheaper than existing Corsa and 208 options.

Personally I think Ford is in trouble...and wildly slashing at anything to save money until they have something profitable to sell.
 

The Panda Nut

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You may have seem in the news that the Ford Fiesta is to end production, with Ford to concentrate on electric models.
so why you might think is this bad news for Fiat?

Well the Fiat 500e is fiats first proper electric car and sales have been pretty poor to be honest, only about 6,000 sold to date.
The fiesta is one of Fords most successful models selling often in excess of 100,000 per year, that has dropped in recent years likely not helped by covid and the push to all electric cars and yet Ford are killing the model. At the moment It remains to be seen if Ford will release a fiesta sized electric replacement, but here is my theory why this isnt good news for Fiat.


Fiat mainly makes small cars, their target market is small cars and they are not really in the main stream compared to Ford and BMW, sales are fairly small. They have been flogging the 500 For years to keep their head afloat and if the electric 500e doesn’t do well, then that is bad news for their future.

if a company like ford have decided there isn’t a market for the fiesta in an electric form, then this may mean electric car buyers are not interested in really small cars. To be honest the whole point in a small car is to cut Costs and save money but he 500e is a £30,500 car, which is far from cheap and cheerful.

my theory is a lot of car manufacturers wI’ll be pitching their smallest cars around the size of the VW iD4 or Ford MACH e or Vauxhall Mokka, a family sized car that is more practical across a larger range of uses than something ultra small like the 500.

Fiat have always been slow to respond and that doesn’t seem to have changed since the Peugeot merger with no new cars announced or even rumoured yet. Peugeot and Vauxhall already have new electric cars in the mid range, do they want to bring further competitors to the market?

is the death of the fiesta the first in the death of the small car….

are future “small cars” going the way cars have been going for years and simply getting bigger and bigger?
FIAT??? I fear Fiat as we loved it is a thing that slid into history a while ago.
Stellantis.... One less badge engineered Peugeot them. In fairness Stellantis seem to see Fiat as the cheap end of electric cars so there is a glimmer until Lithium shortages / environmentyal concerns call a halt to this direction of travel as a mass market solution.

A bit of honesty from these dishonest car makers - and I mean pretty well all of them - and it would be easier to see if electricity makes any sense. ALso if they made the power output akin to whats needed instead of the 200bhp equivalent they seem set to see as a minimum. I don't know about others but 100 is plenty and range is king. Most importantly the car MUST without fail, in all weathers achieve its published range before jumping into eco mode. I dont trust any of these dishonest manufactureres as far as I can chuck them with their claims. Nor does anyone else if the second hand electric car market is any indicator.

Car makesr need to learn that being honest is not an optional extra.
 

bugsymike

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FIAT??? I fear Fiat as we loved it is a thing that slid into history a while ago.
Stellantis.... One less badge engineered Peugeot them. In fairness Stellantis seem to see Fiat as the cheap end of electric cars so there is a glimmer until Lithium shortages / environmentyal concerns call a halt to this direction of travel as a mass market solution.

A bit of honesty from these dishonest car makers - and I mean pretty well all of them - and it would be easier to see if electricity makes any sense. ALso if they made the power output akin to whats needed instead of the 200bhp equivalent they seem set to see as a minimum. I don't know about others but 100 is plenty and range is king. Most importantly the car MUST without fail, in all weathers achieve its published range before jumping into eco mode. I dont trust any of these dishonest manufactureres as far as I can chuck them with their claims. Nor does anyone else if the second hand electric car market is any indicator.

Car makesr need to learn that being honest is not an optional extra.
I agree 100% with Panda Nut, 200Hp + and 0- 60 in 3.9 sec, top speed 155Mph, etc. May sound good in a showroom, but if you even sniffed the accelerator pedal you would be in front of the magistrate, so what is the point.
A top of the range model capable of that, for a rich mans toy, that will never get fully used, may be good to attract the punters (wasn't it win races on a Sunday sell cars on a Monday) however most people just want something to get to work economically, preferably easy/cheap to repair and above all reliable. A fair second hand value when 10 years old would be nice also, something electric cars are not the answer for!
Trouble is well meaning environmentalists have forced Governments to make laws that vehicle manufacturers haven't really got the answer too.
OK if you are a high wage earner living in a City, with cheap/subsidised public transport, a car is less of an essential, but the majority of the public don't and aren't!:(
 

StevenRB45

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If you ignore the fact it looks like a Lego brick..

Headlines would be they are targeting 250 miles on a smaller 40kw battery, ease of repair, 1 tonne kerbweight and simplicity. Electric 2cv if you will.

The 2.5 tonne electric MPV is the easiest electric car to build...so that's what currently rules but realistically how many customers can afford 600-1k a month just for a school run trolley? The bottom of the market is currently underserved but Chinese manufacturers and European ones are looking into it.

The Electric 500 is probably safe as in terms of range if you look at stellan...PSA as a whole it plugs a gap below the Corsa and 208 and competes with the E-Up!
 
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