The Ford Fiesta has been cancelled, bad news for Fiat?

[PuntoHowTo]

And to underline the point...

Ford Fiesta tops October sales charts as market continues to recover | Autocar

New car sales grow for the third month in a row, but the market is set for its worst year since 1982

www.autocar.co.uk

I saw this earlier, they clearly set out to prove me wrong lol

the other posibility is with the announcement of the end of the fiesta, the rental car industry (and let’s face it, they‘re the main buyers for the fiesta) might be stocking up before they stop making it

 

[StevenRB45]

I saw this earlier, they clearly set out to prove me wrong lol

the other posibility is with the announcement of the end of the fiesta, the rental car industry (and let’s face it, they‘re the main buyers for the fiesta) might be stocking up before they stop making it

Possibility...

But the point is it's outsold the Puma...and I'd bet if the Puma wasn't available it would have sold basically the sales figures for the Puma + its own sales figure.

Manufacturers want to tell the world no one wants superminis or normal hatchbacks.. because it costs just as much to engineer a supermini or mid size hatch about the same to build but they have to sell it for 3k or 4k less per unit. When the reality is more along the lines of you have two cars in the sector, you had one. If both are similarly attractive to the same people which ever one was on sale 1st will see it's sales halve.

Once the bottom of the market fleshes out a bit in the electric field we'll see if the ID4 goes the way of the Phaeton.

At the moment choices are limited..so a 40k people on wheel trims seems like a good idea.

 

[The Panda Nut]

Buisneses sense? or driven by hte EU's somewhat tunnel vision view of the future of personal transport...
Have a top sellikng product so lets bin it just like Fiat (rather Stellantis) scrapping decent models insetad of continuing paralell production for the time being.

Somethings going on here thats not entirely as is seems. If popular small petrol cars are being stopped now it suggests they know soimething aboutboil we do not / oil prices and taxation, or there is a hell of a lot more profit in electric cars than they are letting on.

Electric cars are clearly very good. They are not and never will be right for mass use. As part of a solution they are good.

We need, and dare I suggest want, economical cars with low OVERALL carnbon footprints. A mix of fuels is needed and probably always will be. We also clearly need hugely imporved public transport because car ownership as it is is unviable for the planet.

Its so sad that we have noone in government who can see and articulate the blazingly obvious issues or take ANY steps at all to improve things for our world. They are so ***** thick and useless they cannot even tabulate the things that are causing damage and the level of damage fro each or take basic steps to start making some progress. They can apparently legislate to force the Scots to fit smoke alarms but cant prevent either the production of wastefully over powered vehicles or even get the gros polluters off the roads and this is just transport.

They can ram ethanol down your throat so to speak, it clearly does noy have the benefits attributed to it, and will have a net negative effecton emissions as all the cars and ICE powered machines that it ruins, have to be needlessly replaced.

They can invent slogans but havn't the gumption to take even the simplest on board and follow them. Just like the entire waste industry that claims it put safety first and kills 50 times more peolple pro rata than any other industry, They should change their slogan to profit before people!

What is so difficult about Reduce Reuse and Recycle

The obsession about growth is largely moronic. If ever there was a need to work, live, design, build and use SMARTER not harder this surely is the time.
The government is so thick, they think they can carry on regardless and drive the masses into the mire while they are wasting and chearting their way through life thinking there are no consequnces. One look at history ought to show them htis is far from the case and their time will come. A bloody outcome is inevitable.

To all the money grabbing conservatives I say this. When you are sitting in your air conditioned comfy chair eating the last grain of food on the planet, surrounded by the rotting corpses of all other life on the planet I hope you are pleased with you pleased with your money driven class divided system. I hope that last grainyou have grabbed and kept for yourself takes root in your throat and chokes you slowly and painfuilly.

Wake up and start by getting back to basics, redefine the rules for the wider benefit of society and then just follow them. A little humility and not breaking the rules you put in place for society in a pandemic would be a good start. This is what we elect governments for not partying through a pandemic! wHEN IF EVER ARE WE GOING TO SEE A DEPARTMENT LOOKING FOR POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS RATHER THAN TRYING TO ORGANSIE OUR STEADY DEMISE?

 

[PuntoHowTo]

Possibility...

But the point is it's outsold the Puma...and I'd bet if the Puma wasn't available it would have sold basically the sales figures for the Puma + its own sales figure.

Manufacturers want to tell the world no one wants superminis or normal hatchbacks.. because it costs just as much to engineer a supermini or mid size hatch about the same to build but they have to sell it for 3k or 4k less per unit. When the reality is more along the lines of you have two cars in the sector, you had one. If both are similarly attractive to the same people which ever one was on sale 1st will see it's sales halve.

Once the bottom of the market fleshes out a bit in the electric field we'll see if the ID4 goes the way of the Phaeton.

At the moment choices are limited..so a 40k people on wheel trims seems like a good idea.

It’s not that there is no market for small cars, you’ve hit the nail on the head with the comments about the price to build, the build price between a fiesta and a puma it probably not that dissimilar.
Currently the cheapest cars like the panda are £15k or more that’s a lot of money for such a small car. Electrification means that already expensive small cars have to double in price to make any sort of profit and whilst their might be an appetite for small cars that appetite is severely diminished when that car costs £30k

I,e people who want small cars, want them because they are cheap.

i have my own theories why something like a panda is £15k, I think manufacturers are having to push prices up on ice cars to close the gap between ice and electric, just to take some of the sting out of electric car prices.

As for VW, they seem to have been very successful in marketing their electric cars and the ID4 and the ID5 are both selling fairly well, but they also update their older models so people are also buying a lot of mk8 golf’s and other cars, there is an argument to be made that because fiat have not updated their non electric models in a while forcing those loyal to the brand to buy a 500e or jump to a different brand if they want an electric car. This is why I think the 500e sales ‘look’ good right now but I don’t think that will last, I’m willing to be proved wrong

 

[StevenRB45]

It’s not that there is no market for small cars, you’ve hit the nail on the head with the comments about the price to build, the build price between a fiesta and a puma it probably not that dissimilar.
Currently the cheapest cars like the panda are £15k or more that’s a lot of money for such a small car. Electrification means that already expensive small cars have to double in price to make any sort of profit and whilst their might be an appetite for small cars that appetite is severely diminished when that car costs £30k

I,e people who want small cars, want them because they are cheap.

i have my own theories why something like a panda is £15k, I think manufacturers are having to push prices up on ice cars to close the gap between ice and electric, just to take some of the sting out of electric car prices.

As for VW, they seem to have been very successful in marketing their electric cars and the ID4 and the ID5 are both selling fairly well, but they also update their older models so people are also buying a lot of mk8 golf’s and other cars, there is an argument to be made that because fiat have not updated their non electric models in a while forcing those loyal to the brand to buy a 500e or jump to a different brand if they want an electric car. This is why I think the 500e sales ‘look’ good right now but I don’t think that will last, I’m willing to be proved wrong

I think it's trying to figure out what business as usual is going to look like.

It may be it never goes back to pre-covid vehicle sales volume but the market Saturation at about 40-60k+ electric cars to me would suggest they will struggle to find buyers for them all if something a bit more normal comes about.

At the minute buyers will take pretty much anything on the basis you can't get a hold of much without long delays. But against the background of electricity bills rocketing and plans to tax then how do you justify the extra 200 quid a month or so against an ice car when the running cost advantage is being eroded weekly?

Currently you can man maths a 40k+ electric car if you're on say 250-300pm lease then nearly the same again in fuel. But how long will that last?

Random thought from last night, I saw an advert for the mk8 Golf life...it made great pains to point out they were available to order and in-stock.

 

[The Panda Nut]

Its all a bit sad when its still not clear what the whole life costs of electric cars actually are and how they really stack up. Lithium production is also worrying. We need to make a dramatic reduction on fossil fuels and quickly. I like many others who live in a rural area will need transport and I cannot afford to blow 40)K on a car every few years. Second hand electric cars are still rare and those available seem to be pretty rough and ridiculously expensive considering what the battery life may be. I suspect the tax on fossil fuels will be ramped up in early 2030 and what this will do to ordinary people is alarming. A massive step that could be taken right now to reduce fossil fuels would be legislating for big upward economy hikes on ICE cars now. That can still be achieved by reducing engine sizes andperformace, of but no we keep on going down a road that seems to be narrowing rapidly. Something will emerge I anticipate but how much damage will have been done in this stupid free for all before we get sorted?

 

[Rocinante]

Its all a bit sad when its still not clear what the whole life costs of electric cars actually are and how they really stack up. Lithium production is also worrying. We need to make a dramatic reduction on fossil fuels and quickly. I like many others who live in a rural area will need transport and I cannot afford to blow 40)K on a car every few years. Second hand electric cars are still rare and those available seem to be pretty rough and ridiculously expensive considering what the battery life may be........

This seems to be a sweeping incorrect generalisation.

If you're looking for a small electric car, you can pick up a selection of 1 year old Zoe or Mii's for sub £20k. If you're looking for something a bit bigger, you can get a 1 year old MG5 estate, for around £23k. Arguably expensive for size of the car compared against ICE, but a long way off 40k, and not rare or rough.

 

[varesecrazy]

A Zoe is £20k ( enough for a basic car)
and £70/£100 a month to borrow its storage

Im still looking !!

A 2014 zoe is @£9k ...amazingly its had 8 dealer services.. weve been led to believe these vehicles need less 'looking after'

My 2013 FIAT car is worth @£3K
IS ZERO VED, and around the Equivalent in consumables
BUT.. has lost none of its 450 mile range..and a 'full restock' is still counted in minutes rather than hours

 

[bugsymike]

This seems to be a sweeping incorrect generalisation.

If you're looking for a small electric car, you can pick up a selection of 1 year old Zoe or Mii's for sub £20k. If you're looking for something a bit bigger, you can get a 1 year old MG5 estate, for around £23k. Arguably expensive for size of the car compared against ICE, but a long way off 40k, and not rare or rough.

EVs will have to vastly improve to compare with the affordability of ICE vehicles in order to convince me.
No way could I afford a new one or Dealer servicing, the price I pay for a second hand car would buy a whole heap of EV trouble, without taking in to account not being able to repair myself and sourcing reasonable price spares from the Motor Factors.
I agree with the Panda Nut's assessment.
Also we have to wait until there are a lot more EVs on the road to ascertain whether they are a truly viable alternative in the long term in many different ways, from economical repairs, s/h resale values, safety issues, etc. even down to costs of accident repairs and insurance costs.
All that is not taking into account of the fact of rising electricity costs, which though high enough now, are certainly going to rise once the electricity producers have acquired the energy supply monopoly.

 

[PuntoHowTo]

EVs will have to vastly improve to compare with the affordability of ICE vehicles in order to convince me.
No way could I afford a new one or Dealer servicing, the price I pay for a second hand car would buy a whole heap of EV trouble, without taking in to account not being able to repair myself and sourcing reasonable price spares from the Motor Factors.
I agree with the Panda Nut's assessment.
Also we have to wait until there are a lot more EVs on the road to ascertain whether they are a truly viable alternative in the long term in many different ways, from economical repairs, s/h resale values, safety issues, etc. even down to costs of accident repairs and insurance costs.
All that is not taking into account of the fact of rising electricity costs, which though high enough now, are certainly going to rise once the electricity producers have acquired the energy supply monopoly.

The problem with “Energy supply monopoly“ is the fact anyone can fill their roof with solar panels and make their own power, it’s not quite the same as you can’t exactly make your own petrol.

This will seriously limit the governments ability to tax electric cars in the future, you can’t tax or charge for peoples access to sunlight

 

[varesecrazy]

Remembering H.M.Government Taxed Windows.. a while back

As weve said all along
massive swathes of the Uk are still housed in terraced housing or Flats

Thats not counting 'buy to rent' newbuilds

Plenty of scope to Tax all that 'overnight charging'


None of this would bother me if they made all those electrified railways cheaper to use

 

[PuntoHowTo]

Remembering H.M.Government Taxed Windows.. a while back

yes…. Like 150- 300 years back.

realistically solar panels are something they could tax at the point of purchase but because so many companies are building solar farms and because so many other things are reliant on them for much smaller installations like boats and campers as well as masses of small little things like weather stations, traffic signs etc. It’s going to be really hard to introduce any sort of regular tax on solar cells because it Would be far too complicated and too many industries against it. The government might not bow to public pressure but they do bow to lobbying from big companies and whole industries.

You may well end up with two tire system where people in cheaper housing like terraces or flats are having to pay to charge, while home owners are covering their roof in cheep panels and having battery storage fitted, but the more people who do take that route means the less energy companies can/will have to charge. They’re already at risk of customers not buying from the grid and not feeding in as they store power, and these technologies last years so once installed the customer isn’t coming back any time soon.

 

[bugsymike]

yes…. Like 150- 300 years back.

realistically solar panels are something they could tax at the point of purchase but because so many companies are building solar farms and because so many other things are reliant on them for much smaller installations like boats and campers as well as masses of small little things like weather stations, traffic signs etc. It’s going to be really hard to introduce any sort of regular tax on solar cells because it Would be far too complicated and too many industries against it. The government might not bow to public pressure but they do bow to lobbying from big companies and whole industries.

You may well end up with two tire system where people in cheaper housing like terraces or flats are having to pay to charge, while home owners are covering their roof in cheep panels and having battery storage fitted, but the more people who do take that route means the less energy companies can/will have to charge. They’re already at risk of customers not buying from the grid and not feeding in as they store power, and these technologies last years so once installed the customer isn’t coming back any time soon.

Having your own Solar panel charging system is quite a large investment, especially one big enough to supply your house and EV car requirements, given that most panels come from China, a country not known for high build quality electrical component warranties and research has shown even where they keep working the output diminishes as they age whatever the manufacturer, even if you disregard the English climate and longevity of batteries for storage. My concern would be whether they keep running efficiently long enough to recoup the initial investment both of the charging system and the car over the long term.
I went to an auction a while ago for a Solar panel company that had gone bust, people were snapping up the panels and inverters etc. What I did was checked the history of the company, it turned out the reason they went bust was the high amount of warranty claims on their defective panels etc. all from a Chinese supplier!
Down here many people drive ICE cars over 10 years old and 100k miles, given that that is reckoned to be the average life expectancy of an EVs battery system before a massive replacement cost well in excess of the cars value, then the current nearly 50% depreciation of a three year old car is going to take a serious hit in the second hand car market values.
Most people would like a new car but few can afford the price of a new EV especially when it ceases to become a reasonable long term investment.

 

[varesecrazy]

Just like to say..
I owned..and enjoyed 2 x mark 1 fiestas..even learnt to drive in one

It was YEARS before I learn of its origins (Fiat 127)

But all that came to an end when the CVH engine was in all the UK fords.. my experience wasnt good

 

[bugsymike]

Just like to say..
I owned..and enjoyed 2 x mark 1 fiestas..even learnt to drive in one

It was YEARS before I learn of its origins (Fiat 127)

But all that came to an end when the CVH engine was in all the UK fords.. my experience wasnt good

I agree the early Fiesta was a nice simple car to work on. The later CVH versions to a certain extent were let down by people being unfamiliar with the need to change cambelts when due owing to being an "interference" engine, also the VV carb, it only had to back fire a couple of times for the diaphragm to split causing very poor running, plus I suppose being an aluminum cylinder head more susceptible to damage by overheating than the older cast iron heads that we were used to.
The OHV predecessor was like the engine in my first car the Ford Anglia 105E apart from being cross flow. I loved the interchangeability between engines etc. It was possible to fit a 1500cc engine in place of the 997cc simply by fitting the crank shaft spigot bearing from the 997cc to the 1500cc and bending the accelerator arm to the carb up a little to compensate for the slightly taller engine.
You could even change the crank shaft and conrods from a 1340cc Ford Classic into a 997cc with no external difference.
Another conversion a petrol customer of ours with deeper pockets did was fitted a 1600cc Twin Cam Lotus Engine to his Anglia, now that really did fly!

 

[PuntoHowTo]

Having your own Solar panel charging system is quite a large investment, especially one big enough to supply your house and EV car requirements, given that most panels come from China, a country not known for high build quality electrical component warranties and research has shown even where they keep working the output diminishes as they age whatever the manufacturer, even if you disregard the English climate and longevity of batteries for storage. My concern would be whether they keep running efficiently long enough to recoup the initial investment both of the charging system and the car over the long term.
I went to an auction a while ago for a Solar panel company that had gone bust, people were snapping up the panels and inverters etc. What I did was checked the history of the company, it turned out the reason they went bust was the high amount of warranty claims on their defective panels etc. all from a Chinese supplier!
Down here many people drive ICE cars over 10 years old and 100k miles, given that that is reckoned to be the average life expectancy of an EVs battery system before a massive replacement cost well in excess of the cars value, then the current nearly 50% depreciation of a three year old car is going to take a serious hit in the second hand car market values.
Most people would like a new car but few can afford the price of a new EV especially when it ceases to become a reasonable long term investment.

the initial investment might be high, but once you have the set up you can fairly cheaply swap out faulty panels should they fail.
almost all panels are made in China, sadly the backlash in the USA over green and renewable energy because of a certain president saw to it that no funding was allocated to these things leaving China to run away with the whole industry, everyone else is now behind what china are doing. That said there are good panels as well as bad, is just a case of buying what is known to be good and not spending thousands on some unknown brand.

life expectancy of a solar panel can be 25 years or more, it’s not like they have moving parts to ware out, and if you understand how solar panels work, they are no more complex than an LED, yes some efficiency drops off, but this is less than 1% per year.
home storage batteries are also likely to last much longer than batteries in a car because of the number of charging cycles and the loads involved.
with a unit price of ~50p per KWH at the moment, a 10Kw solar system can very quickly make a dent in the cost of electricity, especially over years of use.

The cost of the car really only makes sense if you keep it longer term, sadly most people buy a car and run it for 3/4 years then trade it in for an identical new one. Firstly electric cars don’t wear like a ice engine so 100,000 miles on an electric motor is nothing compared to the same on a petrol engine which will have worn and lost power. If people kept cars longer term it would not only save in terms of materials and pollution to build yet another new car, but also the longer term ownership would start to pay off and work out a better deal, ofsetting the initial investment against the fuel costs, more so if you’re making your own electricity than if you buy it in at huge cost

 

[bugsymike]

the initial investment might be high, but once you have the set up you can fairly cheaply swap out faulty panels should they fail.
almost all panels are made in China, sadly the backlash in the USA over green and renewable energy because of a certain president saw to it that no funding was allocated to these things leaving China to run away with the whole industry, everyone else is now behind what china are doing. That said there are good panels as well as bad, is just a case of buying what is known to be good and not spending thousands on some unknown brand.

life expectancy of a solar panel can be 25 years or more, it’s not like they have moving parts to ware out, and if you understand how solar panels work, they are no more complex than an LED, yes some efficiency drops off, but this is less than 1% per year.
home storage batteries are also likely to last much longer than batteries in a car because of the number of charging cycles and the loads involved.
with a unit price of ~50p per KWH at the moment, a 10Kw solar system can very quickly make a dent in the cost of electricity, especially over years of use.

The cost of the car really only makes sense if you keep it longer term, sadly most people buy a car and run it for 3/4 years then trade it in for an identical new one. Firstly electric cars don’t wear like a ice engine so 100,000 miles on an electric motor is nothing compared to the same on a petrol engine which will have worn and lost power. If people kept cars longer term it would not only save in terms of materials and pollution to build yet another new car, but also the longer term ownership would start to pay off and work out a better deal, ofsetting the initial investment against the fuel costs, more so if you’re making your own electricity than if you buy it in at huge cost

I agree there can be advantages in going that route, especially if you are in a position to trade in for a new model every few years, sadly for people like me at the lower end of the second hand car market they may not be the answer, at least at present.
Another point is unless you stay with a main dealer very few independent workshops have mechanics trained on them and the necessary equipment to undertake any major repairs , so if they do require attention it is at the mercy of Main Dealer pricing for both parts and labour as not much at Motor Factors for good quality pattern parts.
Didn't I read somewhere that BMW and Mercedes both recommend replacing the batteries in any accident that triggers air bags due to possible future electrical fire risk, so even a relatively small accident could result in quite a hefty bill.

 

[varesecrazy]

There was a Jag i-pace in Scandinavia with a damaged 'undertray'

It was quoted £20k to repair

The Adhesive was £2k..!!

Something tells me the concept of these cars are flawed

People have started to notice the amount of vehicles on Motorways with windows so misted.up you cannot see in..or out

Electric cars so tight on range people cannot ( dare not..) use heat..or aircon

Of course the Officials who signed off all this legislation havent stepped into a Cold vehicle for a decade
The term 'Chauffeur' is @120 years old and means something significant

 

[PuntoHowTo]

These silly repair bills are not really any different to what we are seeing in non-electric cars, they are pushing up the costs and setting standards to get a car written off rather than repaired, this is a game the manufacturers love to play because a written off car is a new car sale.

Talking to a few mechanics and garages over the last couple of years many of them say that aside from the electric motor there car is still largely no different to any other car. The main issues in an electric car are the same as any ICE car, namely tires, control arms, bushings, shocks brakes discs and pads and many of these things are no different to what you find on any other car as its all tried and tested over decades.

The batteries are usually supplied with very long 8 years or sometimes more warranties, which means even after all this time its really only the Nissan leaf and the first of the Tesla's sold in the UK that are out of battery warranty.

The Motors on tesla's are induction motors that have virtually nothing to go wrong, this type of motor can go for years and years nonstop without ever breaking down. other manufactures might use different motor technology, but I suspect most use induction type motors because of how robust they are.

A main dealer service for an electric car can be about £100 which is largely just a check over top to toe to make sure everything is ok, there are no fluids to replace or filters to change, in many cases the number of moving parts can be counted on one hand.

Then it comes to electronics, well an electric car is no more complicated than any other new car when it comes to the electrics and certainly more simple than some of the hybrids about.

However, and it is a big however, I can see in about 10 - 15 years' time many of the ICE cars from now will still be on the road, being driven by those with less deep pockets, and who care less about the environment, yes there will be old electric cars but its already been shown that they hold their value much better than a petrol or diesel equivalent, and there will be nowhere near the numbers needed to supply the masses with second hand electric cars, I can actually see a 5 year old electric car going up in value in years to come.
Most electric cars will be driven by those who over stretch themselves or can afford 50K plus cars.
Electric cars are not going to suit people with certain living situations and will be much better suited to those with a garden and place for a charger, I can see electric cars basically being a new class divide.

 

[bugsymike]

These silly repair bills are not really any different to what we are seeing in non-electric cars, they are pushing up the costs and setting standards to get a car written off rather than repaired, this is a game the manufacturers love to play because a written off car is a new car sale.

Talking to a few mechanics and garages over the last couple of years many of them say that aside from the electric motor there car is still largely no different to any other car. The main issues in an electric car are the same as any ICE car, namely tires, control arms, bushings, shocks brakes discs and pads and many of these things are no different to what you find on any other car as its all tried and tested over decades.

The batteries are usually supplied with very long 8 years or sometimes more warranties, which means even after all this time its really only the Nissan leaf and the first of the Tesla's sold in the UK that are out of battery warranty.

The Motors on tesla's are induction motors that have virtually nothing to go wrong, this type of motor can go for years and years nonstop without ever breaking down. other manufactures might use different motor technology, but I suspect most use induction type motors because of how robust they are.

A main dealer service for an electric car can be about £100 which is largely just a check over top to toe to make sure everything is ok, there are no fluids to replace or filters to change, in many cases the number of moving parts can be counted on one hand.

Then it comes to electronics, well an electric car is no more complicated than any other new car when it comes to the electrics and certainly more simple than some of the hybrids about.

However, and it is a big however, I can see in about 10 - 15 years' time many of the ICE cars from now will still be on the road, being driven by those with less deep pockets, and who care less about the environment, yes there will be old electric cars but its already been shown that they hold their value much better than a petrol or diesel equivalent, and there will be nowhere near the numbers needed to supply the masses with second hand electric cars, I can actually see a 5 year old electric car going up in value in years to come.
Most electric cars will be driven by those who over stretch themselves or can afford 50K plus cars.
Electric cars are not going to suit people with certain living situations and will be much better suited to those with a garden and place for a charger, I can see electric cars basically being a new class divide.

In general I agree with you, although I suspect tyres and brakes for a 2.5 tonne car will be more expensive than those for a ICE Panda.
Re less deep pockets and who care less for the environment by driving a ICE car, if the choice is between driving 15 miles to work for minimum wage to feed your family or walking in all weathers I suspect the environment would come second.
We are on this Forum as we like Fiat, a company that made it's fortune selling bread and butter petrol engine cars to the masses.
Given China is building more massive coal fired generators, I suspect even if our efforts achieved Net Zero in the UK the result will be the same.