The Ford Fiesta has been cancelled, bad news for Fiat?

[The Panda Nut]

A Zoe is £20k ( enough for a basic car)
and £70/£100 a month to borrow its storage

Im still looking !!

A 2014 zoe is @£9k ...amazingly its had 8 dealer services.. weve been led to believe these vehicles need less 'looking after'

My 2013 FIAT car is worth @£3K
IS ZERO VED, and around the Equivalent in consumables
BUT.. has lost none of its 450 mile range..and a 'full restock' is still counted in minutes rather than hours

Current GEM magazine has a reasonable length article on electric cars, use in practice and a welter of road tests which really confirms the overall concensus here. It also states clearly service is more expesive and more critical as if service items are not completed the car will just shut down. Air con / cooling is battery crtical. It did not make it clear what the cost differential is.

Mt trawls suggest that the £20K cars may have in XS of 100K of use behind them, and Im not in the market for that. Heavy cars will be needing suspension and steering and wheel bearings by then. Been there and felt the pain many times. Im not going back. A horse would be less aggro. Where I live more practical too. One like Silver I think. Just whistle and along he will trot.....

Its going to be some long time before a decent number of good affordable electric cars appear at more acceptable prices. I suspect well beyond the time Im prepared out spend out that much on a car as well.

 

[gazz_bee]

This thread has drifted from the Fiesta to EVs and I thought it was probably worth fact checking a few things. I'm not going to try and convince anyone about the total cost of ownership because the economics of car ownership with any fuelling system rarely hold up to scrutiny.

However, I would point out a couple of things. There's no point comparing the cost of tyres for a 2.5 tonne car against those for a Panda. However, I can confirm that the tyres for my 500e are the same cost as the 1.2 500 it replaces.

Brakes are a bit more difficult to compare as the EV parts are rated to the weight and performance of the car but use of regenerative braking means they last longer in an EV than in a combustion powered vehicle.

I'm not aware of any EV that stops operating if not serviced by a dealer. An annual service for a 500e is £100 per annum or thereby at a main dealer, covering oils, fluids and coolants. By comparison my Mini Cooper S first service was £350.

Battery longevity remains a controversial issue, because of the current replacement cost of the battery systems and not helped by the headline issues with the first generation of Nissan Leaf. Fiat, like most manufacturers, guarantee their traction batteries for 100,000 miles / 8 years and retaining 70% of their maximum capacity. This doesn't mean that at end of warranty the battery needs to be replaced any more than a combustion engine needs to be replaced at end of its 3 year warranty. The biggest data set is obviously for Tesla but the following chart shows battery degradation against mileage (tends to be charge cycles that cause deterioration rather than simply age). Other manufacturers with competent battery management systems should perform similarly which would suggest the manufacturer warranty provisions are conservative in comparison with field data. Whether a loss of range over time is a material issue depends on what the car is used for. Personally, I took future deg into account when looking at EV range which ruled out the Mini and Honda. To be fair I also preferred the 500e as a package.

 

[bugsymike]

My interest was mainly how it affected older second hand vehicles as many of us are unlikely to be able to afford a new EV though we may wish to.
Those that can will probably update every couple of years and so are less likely to be concerned with any long term issues, although you could argue that if values drop off in the S/H market that could result in a lower part exchange price against their next new EV.
With regard to tyres and weight,
"Many electric and hybrid tyres use very specific sidewalls, though - often made with the extra weight in mind to help absorb the additional strain electric and hybrid cars can place on the tyre."
"Electric vehicles weigh more than their internal combustion engine counterparts, and that has implications for maintenance, safety and even pollution. The additional weight of EVs is a challenge for automakers today looking to increase at least half of their sales to be all-electric by the end of the decade."
"EVs tend to weigh a lot more than internal combustion engine cars: A Tesla Model 3 Performance with AWD weighs 4,065 pounds -- 379 pounds more than a BMW 330i XDrive. A Tesla Model S Long Range weighs 4,560 pounds -- 510 pounds more than a BMW 540i XDrive, which is no lightweight."
Maybe you were fortunate with your tyre price, as long as the new tyres were the same quality recommended for the 500e as:-

Fiat 500 Lounge 1.2 69HP Size, Dimensions, Aerodynamics and Weight
Curb Weight :	2072 lbs / 940 Kg

The Fiat 500 2021 500e 42kWh weighs------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3009 lbs./ 1365 Kg

I know from experience buying tyres for cars and similar van versions that the correct load rating tyre is normally more expensive for the van.

Most of us would like an EV but the majority have no choice but to run older cars, which is where longer term they may have higher costs to run EVs than their ICE counterparts.
Regarding servicing and repair costs manufacturers tend to make these fairly low for the cars early years to help sales where as it can be seen by the length of service times towards the middle of the service book increases.
Another small point is as reading in the Forum shows, most of us enjoy or need to repair our own vehicles to save money, not something currently advised for EVs.

 

[StevenRB45]

Tend to find the opposite with tyres.

The correct load rating for our car is 91 as it's quite light for a modern at 1075kg but the tyre size is usually associated with mid range Golfs, Astra's, Focuses, Octavias etc which all weigh between 1350 to 1600kg and require a 94.

If I want the correct tyres it's usually a case of special order whereas they'll have a 94 on the shelf for no extra money.

In small tyres it would cost more but the new 500 will be on big tyres compared to the old one. Tends to be the cost the is more related to how rare or unusual a tyre is rather than physical size and construction. There's nothing unusual about a 1350 kg car, and the tyre it'll be on the load will be fairly standard rather than in the commercial band.

 

[bugsymike]

On a slightly different note, I confess to never having driven an EV but for those that have had the pleasure of a agile Fiat 500 ICE how the EV version of the same model if some figures indicate that they may weigh half as much again, compares in spirited driving on twisty country roads.

 

[gazz_bee]

My interest was mainly how it affected older second hand vehicles as many of us are unlikely to be able to afford a new EV though we may wish to.
Those that can will probably update every couple of years and so are less likely to be concerned with any long term issues, although you could argue that if values drop off in the S/H market that could result in a lower part exchange price against their next new EV.
With regard to tyres and weight,
"Many electric and hybrid tyres use very specific sidewalls, though - often made with the extra weight in mind to help absorb the additional strain electric and hybrid cars can place on the tyre."
"Electric vehicles weigh more than their internal combustion engine counterparts, and that has implications for maintenance, safety and even pollution. The additional weight of EVs is a challenge for automakers today looking to increase at least half of their sales to be all-electric by the end of the decade."
"EVs tend to weigh a lot more than internal combustion engine cars: A Tesla Model 3 Performance with AWD weighs 4,065 pounds -- 379 pounds more than a BMW 330i XDrive. A Tesla Model S Long Range weighs 4,560 pounds -- 510 pounds more than a BMW 540i XDrive, which is no lightweight."
Maybe you were fortunate with your tyre price, as long as the new tyres were the same quality recommended for the 500e as:-

Fiat 500 Lounge 1.2 69HP Size, Dimensions, Aerodynamics and Weight
Curb Weight :	2072 lbs / 940 Kg

The Fiat 500 2021 500e 42kWh weighs------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3009 lbs./ 1365 Kg

I know from experience buying tyres for cars and similar van versions that the correct load rating tyre is normally more expensive for the van.

Most of us would like an EV but the majority have no choice but to run older cars, which is where longer term they may have higher costs to run EVs than their ICE counterparts.
Regarding servicing and repair costs manufacturers tend to make these fairly low for the cars early years to help sales where as it can be seen by the length of service times towards the middle of the service book increases.
Another small point is as reading in the Forum shows, most of us enjoy or need to repair our own vehicles to save money, not something currently advised for EVs.

Some EVs use specially developed tyres, many don't. The tyre comparison I did was with identical products across a series of different manufacturers. You would find the same with Renault Zoe and Nissan Leaf tyres against their combustion engines equivalents.

I can share the service schedule for a 500e which is typical for EVs - there are no surprises other than a battery replacement for the UConnect module which I suspect is common across all Fiat models.

 

[gazz_bee]

On a slightly different note, I confess to never having driven an EV but for those that have had the pleasure of a agile Fiat 500 ICE how the EV version of the same model if some figures indicate that they may weigh half as much again, compares in spirited driving on twisty country roads.

I'll be honest, you'd be surprised by the performance and handling of the 500e versus the ICE model. The 500e is more capable, more chuckable into corners and is more solidly built. The 500e has been designed as an EV from the start so battery placement within the chassis is designed in for lower centre of gravity (unlike the Mini electric compromises which definitely does feel lardy). My only issue is that the steering is overly light and is something they need to pick up with the Abarth.

 

[s130]

It is my understanding that just about all EVs, especially the 500e, are really good to drive in all respects. Battery life, 70%+ charge after 8 years could be an issue for some depending on how much a replacement will be when 8 years comes round?

Another possible issue is will Fiat / Other still be supplying replacement batteries/spares 10 years after production? With traditional ICE then there is quite a health OEM spare parts, engine recon, etc. supply out there. With the way battery technology is advancing and to an extent how "custom to car" EV batteries can/could be then there may not be a profitable aftermarket business for older replacement batteries.

Please note I've used the "possible" in the above as I don't think any of us can say for certain, especially with Fiat's EVs being so new, as to how this will all pan out.

What I do know for fact is that:

1) All home EV chargers/points now have to be installed with separate metering. This is a government legal requirement. The implications of this are obvious........ electric road tax in the future? Certainly won't be for cheaper electricity compared to domestic use electricity.

2) The AA / RAC / Motoring Groups have already done a study of driving cost on long journeys where two or more public recharges are required and currently this is more expensive than the equivalent fuel cost. Now for long infrequent holiday trips this is not going to be a real concern, similarly for business trips where the company picks up the tab, but for some distanced families this is possibly a factor to consider.

3) EVs are useless if you tow a trailer/caravan and need a decent range. Getting to Italy (2K miles) towing is going near on impossible taking 5 days travelling each way.

I'll certainly at EVs in the future. Question then will be a purchase, lease, rent, other arrangement.

 

[StevenRB45]

Well... officially from Fiat the cancellation of the Fiesta and possible cancellation of the Polo is good news.

Less competition in the sector where they want to return/remain.

Fiat commits to keeping cars small in EV shift | Autocar

Italian firm plans to dominate A- and B-segment, with Ford's move to axe Fiesta "an opportunity" for rivals, says Fiat CEO

www.autocar.co.uk

 

[AndyRKett]

Well... officially from Fiat the cancellation of the Fiesta and possible cancellation of the Polo is good news.

Less competition in the sector where they want to return/remain.

Fiat commits to keeping cars small in EV shift | Autocar

Italian firm plans to dominate A- and B-segment, with Ford's move to axe Fiesta "an opportunity" for rivals, says Fiat CEO

www.autocar.co.uk

This does highlight my initial question. Ford is structured very differently to vw, but if vw can’t see a market to continue the polo bearing in mind just how many specialty cars VW make, they made the eUP! For years, and make things like the T-Roc cabriolet, as well as all their money losing cars like the phaeton, so if they don’t see a point I’m the polo even if it’s to cater to a small group of buyers, that doesn’t bode well for future small car sales.

Even in that article Fiat highlighted the problem that making an electric car is very expensive so you have to go high end with the car, as people won’t pay large sums for something that is a very basic car.

Historically fiat are not good at “high end” and do not have any reputation for luxury cars or using high technology.

Stallantis would be better pushing “hi end” small electric cars under a brand that has more credibility?

I don’t know what the answers are but I think fiat has found itself in a bit of a void in the market and is trying to create a niche for themselves that other bigger manufacturers are walking away from. It’s either genius, or suicide, I think it’s too early to tell

 

[Rocinante]

This does highlight my initial question. Ford is structured very differently to vw, but if vw can’t see a market to continue the polo bearing in mind just how many specialty cars VW make, they made the eUP! For years, and make things like the T-Roc cabriolet, as well as all their money losing cars like the phaeton, so if they don’t see a point I’m the polo even if it’s to cater to a small group of buyers, that doesn’t bode well for future small car sales.

Even in that article Fiat highlighted the problem that making an electric car is very expensive so you have to go high end with the car, as people won’t pay large sums for something that is a very basic car.

Historically fiat are not good at “high end” and do not have any reputation for luxury cars or using high technology.

Stallantis would be better pushing “hi end” small electric cars under a brand that has more credibility?

I don’t know what the answers are but I think fiat has found itself in a bit of a void in the market and is trying to create a niche for themselves that other bigger manufacturers are walking away from. It’s either genius, or suicide, I think it’s too early to tell

I would assume that volume would help play a part in reducing costs of Electric cars, at the minute they are still relatively low volume. Once car companies are only selling electric, the volumes should hopefully bring the costs down a bit, including that of small EV's, and make them more competitive again.
Also once your choice is electric or electric, some people will still be looking for the cheapest available option, and a small electric car must be cheaper to build than a larger electric car, even if they are both expensive.

 

[bugsymike]

I would assume that volume would help play a part in reducing costs of Electric cars, at the minute they are still relatively low volume. Once car companies are only selling electric, the volumes should hopefully bring the costs down a bit, including that of small EV's, and make them more competitive again.
Also once your choice is electric or electric, some people will still be looking for the cheapest available option, and a small electric car must be cheaper to build than a larger electric car, even if they are both expensive.

We could get the horse and carts out but there is no hay to feed them as the fields are covered in solar farms .

 

[StevenRB45]

This does highlight my initial question. Ford is structured very differently to vw, but if vw can’t see a market to continue the polo bearing in mind just how many specialty cars VW make, they made the eUP! For years, and make things like the T-Roc cabriolet, as well as all their money losing cars like the phaeton, so if they don’t see a point I’m the polo even if it’s to cater to a small group of buyers, that doesn’t bode well for future small car sales.

Even in that article Fiat highlighted the problem that making an electric car is very expensive so you have to go high end with the car, as people won’t pay large sums for something that is a very basic car.

Historically fiat are not good at “high end” and do not have any reputation for luxury cars or using high technology.

Stallantis would be better pushing “hi end” small electric cars under a brand that has more credibility?

I don’t know what the answers are but I think fiat has found itself in a bit of a void in the market and is trying to create a niche for themselves that other bigger manufacturers are walking away from. It’s either genius, or suicide, I think it’s too early to tell

I think best way to look at is would be Stellantis is one large entity.

So yeah they aren't going to try and posh up Fiat when they've got Maserati, Lancia, Ferrari etc. On their portfolio, for the same reason Pug isn't about to build a budget car or Citroën a sporty one.

VW hasn't had the best financial situation either...billions of dollars of diesel gate fines and compo. This combined with the costs of electric development becomes an issue. Hence why the ID3 was significantly faulty, poorly trimmed and shows significant cost cutting pretty much everywhere but especially in the interior layout. So again against Covid shortage back drop...they are going to concentrate on high margin product to try and get out of that.

I think the question is...if everyone is selling high margin product who has the money to buy it?

The higher your prices, the fewer perspective customers you have, the fewer customers you you have buying new cars...less your dealers have to do. If your dealers have fewer cars in and out they make less and go elsewhere or go multibrand diluting your "premium" experience or meaning your nearest dealer is now 50 miles away.

Yes, you can move online...but not entirely sure how snagging faults and warranty work works with that. Also people still like test drives and to see cars..

Not everyone can make 40k-50k cars there's no market to support that, which is doubly true now road tax is coming back for bevs and electric keeps going up.

The development costs are currently the highest bit...but Stellantis are spreading them incredibly thin. The battery pack and motor they currently use is in about 15-20 cars, vans, people carriers with different badges on it.

Not a good thing from a "cars with character" perspective really but the leverage of the buying power and spread costs of development will be significant.

We'll see...either Stellantis will be last one standing at the bottom of the market and take the shared development costs benefits into the middle of the market to compete with higher and mid priced cars with bigger budgets than the low volumes can manage.

Or they'll fail and we'll mostly be on the bus...or car sharing in future.

 

[AndyRKett]

I think best way to look at is would be Stellantis is one large entity.

So yeah they aren't going to try and posh up Fiat when they've got Maserati, Lancia, Ferrari etc. On their portfolio, for the same reason Pug isn't about to build a budget car or Citroën a sporty one.

Historically speaking I think Fiat has found itself in a dangerous position, and I think being part of Stellantis is part of the problem not the key to their survival.

Fiat to Stellantis now, is what Lancia/Chrysler was to fiat about 10 years ago.

Fiat dealerships keep closing down left, right and centre.
Fiat only really has 3 base cars the 500, the Panda and the 500X pretty much everything else has ceased production or isn't selling (looking at you Tipo)
Yes the 500 sells well, but there was a point not all that long ago that the Chrysler voyager was the best-selling people carrier.
Yes, Lancia was very popular back in Italy, but a one country brand doesn't work in the global automotive industry.

I genuinely think that we are watching the death of the Fiat brand, enhanced by years of under-investment in new models, and a paradigm shift in the automotive industry, from internal combustion engines to electric drive trains.

I think that fiat may survive in places like South America, India where they are extremely popular due to very cheap basic models that are easy to work on with poor infrastructure and no massive demand or legislation pushing for electrification, but I think ultimately, they may die in Europe.

It ultimately comes down to the question, How many people are going to by a super mini car with no boot space and no back seat space for ~£35k, when for £40k you can get a bigger more practical car that uses pretty much the same amount of money to charge it to get to work and is just as efficient, as big or small they all have massively heavy batteries.

I think you spoke about the Puma for ford which is in essence the fiesta on steroids. Much more practical in terms of space, probably a similar footprint and doesn't cost ford anymore to make than a fiesta, so why not push the currently trendy SUV option over the fiesta, which to a customer probably looks like a much better deal/value for money.

 

[bugsymike]

Historically speaking I think Fiat has found itself in a dangerous position, and I think being part of Stellantis is part of the problem not the key to their survival.

Fiat to Stellantis now, is what Lancia/Chrysler was to fiat about 10 years ago.

Fiat dealerships keep closing down left, right and centre.
Fiat only really has 3 base cars the 500, the Panda and the 500X pretty much everything else has ceased production or isn't selling (looking at you Tipo)
Yes the 500 sells well, but there was a point not all that long ago that the Chrysler voyager was the best-selling people carrier.
Yes, Lancia was very popular back in Italy, but a one country brand doesn't work in the global automotive industry.

I genuinely think that we are watching the death of the Fiat brand, enhanced by years of under-investment in new models, and a paradigm shift in the automotive industry, from internal combustion engines to electric drive trains.

I think that fiat may survive in places like South America, India where they are extremely popular due to very cheap basic models that are easy to work on with poor infrastructure and no massive demand or legislation pushing for electrification, but I think ultimately, they may die in Europe.

It ultimately comes down to the question, How many people are going to by a super mini car with no boot space and no back seat space for ~£35k, when for £40k you can get a bigger more practical car that uses pretty much the same amount of money to charge it to get to work and is just as efficient, as big or small they all have massively heavy batteries.

I think you spoke about the Puma for ford which is in essence the fiesta on steroids. Much more practical in terms of space, probably a similar footprint and doesn't cost ford anymore to make than a fiesta, so why not push the currently trendy SUV option over the fiesta, which to a customer probably looks like a much better deal/value for money.

Whether it is Fiat or someone else there there are a lot of people in third world countries who can't repair fancy cars and will run on petrol or diesel or sunflower oil vehicles because it is all they can afford and to be honest if putting food on the table or worrying about Co2 ????
If the nearest you get to electricity is a wind up radio, they would need a pretty big key for an EV

 

[StevenRB45]

Historically speaking I think Fiat has found itself in a dangerous position, and I think being part of Stellantis is part of the problem not the key to their survival.

Fiat to Stellantis now, is what Lancia/Chrysler was to fiat about 10 years ago.

Fiat dealerships keep closing down left, right and centre.
Fiat only really has 3 base cars the 500, the Panda and the 500X pretty much everything else has ceased production or isn't selling (looking at you Tipo)
Yes the 500 sells well, but there was a point not all that long ago that the Chrysler voyager was the best-selling people carrier.
Yes, Lancia was very popular back in Italy, but a one country brand doesn't work in the global automotive industry.

I genuinely think that we are watching the death of the Fiat brand, enhanced by years of under-investment in new models, and a paradigm shift in the automotive industry, from internal combustion engines to electric drive trains.

I think that fiat may survive in places like South America, India where they are extremely popular due to very cheap basic models that are easy to work on with poor infrastructure and no massive demand or legislation pushing for electrification, but I think ultimately, they may die in Europe.

It ultimately comes down to the question, How many people are going to by a super mini car with no boot space and no back seat space for ~£35k, when for £40k you can get a bigger more practical car that uses pretty much the same amount of money to charge it to get to work and is just as efficient, as big or small they all have massively heavy batteries.

I think you spoke about the Puma for ford which is in essence the fiesta on steroids. Much more practical in terms of space, probably a similar footprint and doesn't cost ford anymore to make than a fiesta, so why not push the currently trendy SUV option over the fiesta, which to a customer probably looks like a much better deal/value for money.

I think the point is, they aren't aiming for 35k to 40k superminis. They are aiming for 25k usable family cars...and Cheaper than that for smaller ones.

They will also build the more expensive stuff but for example the thing that has lead to VW EV roll out being significantly delayed is the software they have is to clever for its own bloody good. They can't get it to work consistently it's cost millions in delays and will cost millions to sort. Both the infotainment and the car software itself is below ideal. It takes loads of chips as well...which are now ferociously expensive.

The Stellantis plan for in car computers in its cheap cars..plug your phone in mate, millions in ingrained cost saved right there. The plan to get around raw materials and chip costs...use less of them. The reason we need a large batteries is in part to carry large batteries. Make it lighter...you can carry less battery you don't need weapons grade charging gear to get decent charging times, again cheaper. Use alternative materials in the construction, they are exploring cardboard FFS. They've gone to the point of the cheaper cars have a cheaper to produce battery chemistry as well as having a smaller battery.

They will also sell the more expensive things..under say DS or Peugeot or Alfa or Maserati and they will also benefit from the shared costs.

Let's face it badge to badge if Stellantis decided to match VW group blow for blow they'll lose you could devalue any Audi 10k by putting a DS badge on it because people buy the badge not the car.

So play to your strengths...and you never know people may start in an Ami..move up to 500e...go to Pug e-2008 move to DS go off to an Alfa and work their way through.

Where of you've got no bottom of the range you're hoping your badge is good enough to attract customers from other brands.

 

[AndyRKett]

I think the point is, they aren't aiming for 35k to 40k superminis. They are aiming for 25k usable family cars...and Cheaper than that for smaller ones.

They will also build the more expensive stuff but for example the thing that has lead to VW EV roll out being significantly delayed is the software they have is to clever for its own bloody good. They can't get it to work consistently it's cost millions in delays and will cost millions to sort. Both the infotainment and the car software itself is below ideal. It takes loads of chips as well...which are now ferociously expensive.

The Stellantis plan for in car computers in its cheap cars..plug your phone in mate, millions in ingrained cost saved right there. The plan to get around raw materials and chip costs...use less of them. The reason we need a large batteries is in part to carry large batteries. Make it lighter...you can carry less battery you don't need weapons grade charging gear to get decent charging times, again cheaper. Use alternative materials in the construction, they are exploring cardboard FFS. They've gone to the point of the cheaper cars have a cheaper to produce battery chemistry as well as having a smaller battery.

They will also sell the more expensive things..under say DS or Peugeot or Alfa or Maserati and they will also benefit from the shared costs.

Let's face it badge to badge if Stellantis decided to match VW group blow for blow they'll lose you could devalue any Audi 10k by putting a DS badge on it because people buy the badge not the car.

So play to your strengths...and you never know people may start in an Ami..move up to 500e...go to Pug e-2008 move to DS go off to an Alfa and work their way through.

Where of you've got no bottom of the range you're hoping your badge is good enough to attract customers from other brands.

Back when VW were trying to bring the ID cars to market, the main issue wasn't the software being "too cleaver" it was the massive lack of software engineers at VW at the time. They were offering massive salaries and relocation bonuses to anyone with a shred of programming ability, not because of the infotainment system or how the heaters were controlled, VW have been managing that for years. The issue is electric cars have a totally different set of technology that needs to work seamlessly together to get the economy figures they need to stand up to the likes of tesla.

That is all behind them now they know what they're doing. But the 500e has exactly the same types of technology to shunt power arround the car to keep it as fuel efficent as possible. It really isn't made any cheaper to run your car off your phone the phone in this instance brings little to the party, maybe some songs.

The 500e is a £30K+ car at its cheapest point. Electric cars are not coming down in price anytime soon, the batteries are still too expensive which makes up the bulk of the price.

Therefore with a current Panda being £15k right now, I can see even the most basic stripped out panda in electric form with the same sort of range as the 500e is still going to be over £25k and I'd argue there is no market for the most basic stripped out car at a 25K price point.

Mini has made a cheaper car but it doesn't sell as well. It also doesn't have anywhere near the range of the 500e (on paper)

 

[StevenRB45]

Back when VW were trying to bring the ID cars to market, the main issue wasn't the software being "too cleaver" it was the massive lack of software engineers at VW at the time. They were offering massive salaries and relocation bonuses to anyone with a shred of programming ability, not because of the infotainment system or how the heaters were controlled, VW have been managing that for years. The issue is electric cars have a totally different set of technology that needs to work seamlessly together to get the economy figures they need to stand up to the likes of tesla.

That is all behind them now they know what they're doing. But the 500e has exactly the same types of technology to shunt power arround the car to keep it as fuel efficent as possible. It really isn't made any cheaper to run your car off your phone the phone in this instance brings little to the party, maybe some songs.

The 500e is a £30K+ car at its cheapest point. Electric cars are not coming down in price anytime soon, the batteries are still too expensive which makes up the bulk of the price.

Therefore with a current Panda being £15k right now, I can see even the most basic stripped out panda in electric form with the same sort of range as the 500e is still going to be over £25k and I'd argue there is no market for the most basic stripped out car at a 25K price point.

Mini has made a cheaper car but it doesn't sell as well. It also doesn't have anywhere near the range of the 500e (on paper)

Well no... currently they can't even get the TPS sensors or the even charging door to behave as intended never mind the power train. It's not that it's new tech they can't even get what was well understood tech to work.

They've literally bought 60% of a robotics company to see if they can get someone to figure it out...at a cost of 3 billion + https://thedriven.io/2022/10/14/vws-seeks-to-remedy-software-woes-with-3-7-billion-spend-on-jv/

Also 500e was priced up at a time Fiat was not part of Stellantis...and was a stand-alone model so not exactly representative of what a car shared across 10 brands will cost.

 

[gazz_bee]

Well no... currently they can't even get the TPS sensors or the even charging door to behave as intended never mind the power train. It's not that it's new tech they can't even get what was well understood tech to work.

They've literally bought 60% of a robotics company to see if they can get someone to figure it out...at a cost of 3 billion + https://thedriven.io/2022/10/14/vws-seeks-to-remedy-software-woes-with-3-7-billion-spend-on-jv/

Also 500e was priced up at a time Fiat was not part of Stellantis...and was a stand-alone model so not exactly representative of what a car shared across 10 brands will cost.

I think that's a fair point. As a 500e owner, I can see the common parts in the upcoming Jeep Avenger. Definitely shared development costs.

 

[StevenRB45]

I think that's a fair point. As a 500e owner, I can see the common parts in the upcoming Jeep Avenger. Definitely shared development costs.

There's all sorts of other not product related things going on in the background as well.


So if we take the statement "no one wants a basic car at 25k" in the current manufacturer mindset no, build a car to be in the dealer network for the warranty period get the customer into a new car, after that call the old one junk. The absolute opposite of environmental thinking...and business as usual.

How about a basic car that is 25k...but is designed to be able to be maintained in an as new condition for at least a decade? A car with upgradable and swappable batteries and drive train that the manufacturer can do at their garages rather than "throw that away buy another when we release the new one if you want better". A car with no infotainment to go out of date etc. 25k over an 8-10 year lease/PCP...that is all of a sudden a cheap car.

That's what they are currently as a group talking about. We'll see how it goes...in theory lovely idea you keep your car longer, as it's designed to last longer and has full spares back up and can be brought up to current standards if you want to.

Could all be marketing bluster but combined with lighter cars and less material intensive cars makes a lot more sense as a green solution than "we all need to buy 2.2 tonne vans because that's all they are building".