Same ol touchy subject !!!

[Dobby]

In all fairness to MATT68, he didn't start this thread as a race issue. He simply asked for your views on the headline of the day

Can we try to keep on topic else this will turn into another argument that no-one can win cause none of you are either right or wrong.

<and yes that includes myself>

 

[Ulpian]

Sometimes Dobby, things are said which are plain indefensible. And they need responding to.

I am a pretty flexible person and happy to admit error, however,
when I am right, and someone else has said things which are, franky, unsupportable by any decent person, then I will speak out.

It's called freedom of speech - and I fear for it.
But I'll say no more on this thread as I dare say everyone knows my position by now.

 

[sammiboo]

Sort of comment id expect off you sammi!

this is also the kind of thread I'd expect off you - so we're even

 

[MATT 68]

PMSL! Touche sammi! i make that 15 all I honestly cant stop grinning after reading your reply! nice one

 

[CJ_CINQQY]

they "It's in my religion to wear a vail,so because my religion says to wear one,i will" thats stupid. So If i set up a religion of my own and said "my religion tells me to kill all muslims that wear vails,and because it says so in my religion i will do it" they wont let me get away with saying that,so why should they!

 

[dave]

they "It's in my religion to wear a vail,so because my religion says to wear one,i will" thats stupid. So If i set up a religion of my own and said "my religion tells me to kill all muslims that wear vails,and because it says so in my religion i will do it" they wont let me get away with saying that,so why should they!

you shouldnt smoke that stuff and post on the forum at the same time

 

[cazz]

Unfortunatly i think things in this country has been going down hill for a long time. Political correctness has taken over common sense. Racism and religion is used as an excuse to force us into believing that our way of life and our country needs to change.
Many more of these pointless stories will surface but common sense must prevail. No one should be given special treatment or allowances.

 

[PNL]

you shouldnt smoke that stuff and post on the forum at the same time

LMAO

 

[jug]

That Dubai comparison is not in the least appropriate - on many levels!

Dubai is not a democracy. All those British doing lovely well paid jobs and living happily on their compounds, and keeping themselves smugly apart from the other races; well, fine for them.. Of course they are content. They only stay for a few years and then leave. They have no say in the political process and they have not settled there for good - otherwise they'd probably be expected to convert to Islam. Where's the freedom there? They are simply well paid hired help. Don't fool yourself.

good point, they havent settled there to live permanently, but that is only because the goverment will not allow it. my family wanted to live there permanently but i couldn't get a residency visa without a job. my dad still lives there but he too will be forced to leave when he retires. but that is changing, although it will not be possible for expats to gain UAE national status, it is already possible to buy a house on a 99 year lease and then stay in the country without having a job provided you have the money. this is progress and although its slow it is happeneing. i dont think the ols system is such a bad idea and definately something we should consider implementing in the UK. there's no problem living here if you're working, but once you leave work you should leave the country, if you dont contribute to the economy why should you be allowed to live here. it makes sense to me.

And as for the the low caste labouring Indians happily living in their camps - this is another myth!
The Indians are often terribly abused and exploited, both by higher caste Indians and by the locals. Believe me, they would love to have improved prospects, and not be kept down by accident of birth. Your smug description of an artificial utopia is so complacent and wide of the mark I cannot believe you had the nerve to write it. I guess you are so incredibly self-satisfied that you are utterly insensitive to and actually unaware of your content!!!

I've been there, i've sat with them in their shanties, i've eaten food with them, i've even gone fishing with them, its not as bad as you make out, to our standard of living they live in poverty and misery, but to them they are the lucky ones who have a far better lifestyle than their friends and family back home. yes they share a single room with sometimes up to a dozen people, yes they get paid very little money, yes they work long hours in the heat, and yes they have very few right and are treated like cattle more than humans (especially by the locals) but that is all relative, and to them its relatively bloody brilliant because back home they were homeless unemployed and truely miserbale. i've asked them why they came to dubai when the conditions are so harsh, they say its because its the best opportunity they have and iut allows them to send money home to feed their families. they're over the moon that they're in dubai.

its similar with sri lankan house maids, many of them are beaten and raped by thier employers, but compared to life in sri lanka where they cant earn money anbd stuggle to survive, dubai is absolute bliss. i've also sat with the housemaids, eaten with them, asked them about thier homes and lives, we used to have a maid called mala but she said gloria. we send her on holiday back to sri lanka to see her dying father. so not all maids have a bad life and are beaten, yes it happens, but to a small minaorty, as with most things in life.

And my middle eastern experinces are very different. I will be visiting Oman in the new year and staying with Omani friends - and I am not alone - so I suggest that there is mixing across the nationalities and that it is a good thing.

Your ideas of segregation; apartheid, are ghettoisation.

This cannot be a model for Britain, not my Britain anyway. I find your opinions frightening. Forget Enoch Powell; you make me think of Oswald Moseley. Horrified.

you misunderstand me, I do not mean forced segregation is a good thing, and i agree mixing does occur in the middle east, but not very much, its certainly not widespread. but my point is that it is not forced, people are free to mix a s much or as little as they choose. there is no concern that a lack of integration or segregation is causing social or economic problems like we do in the uk. i agree mixing is a good thing, but to force mixing is foolish, it should be natural and occur at a rate that people are comfortable with.
my model for britain does not include forced sereration, i only think we should stop worrying about integration and let it occur naturally. and we should stop viewing seperation as a problem or a solution, its natural. the last time i went to bradford it was painfully apparent how few white people live in certain areas. that is viewed as a problem by uk politicians and causes fear in many uk nationals. i dont see why its a problem. if any people want to have a community, be it white, asian, or mixed, the members of the community should be able to choose how they live. we can not force integration or segregation.

 

[MATT 68]

my model for britain does not include forced sereration, i only think we should stop worrying about integration and let it occur naturally.

So just how long is that gonna take? We've had nearly 50 yrs at it already and now seem to be going backwards.
I think your time in Dubai(14yrs wasnt it?) has made you lose touch with reality. Life in Britain has changed dramatically over the last 20 yrs and i feel that you havent caught up with modern day Britain yet! Sorry mate but thats the impression i get.

 

[jug]

i agree, but i see that as an advantage. an outside perspective without any bias towards british ideas or culture allows me to analyse the situaiton with no preference to either side of the argument. i can have an independent opinion, unlike any british person (i dont even consider myself british to be honest). i have lived in the UK since July 99, and studied british political and social trends in some detail during my economics A level and 2 years doing an economics degree. also i have first hand expereince of what it is like to be a foreigner trying to live abroad. i think that makes my opinions more valid than those of the british tabloids.

integration is not something that will complete at a certain time, it is a constant social and cultural evolution of the populaiton. i agree it has taken a step back in recent years. i blame britain's (aka america's) international politics and policies and the british media's attempts to stur up racial and religious fear and ignorance. things could get worse or better in the near future, i'm not sure which to expect. it seems as though all sides involved would prefer the fear and ignorance, which is a change from the conventional government based propogation of fear and ignorace used to achieve power, as is still the case in the usa.

 

[Dirk_Crisis]

Don't you feel that "Muslims! Terror!" is just a ploy to sell newspapers though? Why the hell are people arguing about veils when this story gets no coverage?

Maybe "Men with components for explosives and rocket launcher (but maybe no rockets)" doesn't have any legs? Or maybe, as Mathaba suggests, it doesn't have any Muslims?

I guess we'll see what happens on October 23rd.

 

[Morritt]

jug, you put up some good arguments, but i think they are fundamentally flawed.

we are living in a society to encourage people in, poor people, jobless people who are suffering from exploitation (and bring all your family too!), they come here because its a safe haven, and our taxpayers are giving them a free ride (they would be getting more jobless here than they would be getting working at home). sure we also encourage highlt paid doctors and the like, but thats only a tiny minority. people arent coming here with wonderful thoughts about intetgrating into our society, just getting a better life.

your dubai however, they are pretty strict on who can come in and who cant, sure theres a lot of english people there, but only because they are doing those highly skilled jobs you mentioned, you are being exploited for their benefit, once you are done you go home ... thats no way to encourage intergration. tell me, in dubai could you go to a church to pray? were you able to celebrate christmas and easter openly?

 

[jug]

jug, you put up some good arguments, but i think they are fundamentally flawed.

we are living in a society to encourage people in, poor people, jobless people who are suffering from exploitation (and bring all your family too!), they come here because its a safe haven, and our taxpayers are giving them a free ride (they would be getting more jobless here than they would be getting working at home). sure we also encourage highlt paid doctors and the like, but thats only a tiny minority. people arent coming here with wonderful thoughts about intetgrating into our society, just getting a better life.

your dubai however, they are pretty strict on who can come in and who cant, sure theres a lot of english people there, but only because they are doing those highly skilled jobs you mentioned, you are being exploited for their benefit, once you are done you go home ... thats no way to encourage intergration. tell me, in dubai could you go to a church to pray? were you able to celebrate christmas and easter openly?

yes in dubai they let you go to church, there are 3 public christian churches. xmas is celebrated, there's lights, decorations and trees, the whole lot. even shopping centres can have a santa isf they choose, although he's usually indian. at easter all the shops have mountains of easter eggs. the expat schools close for xmas and easter, as do most businesses that employ expats. and its still a strict muslim country.

on the other hand we also celebrate diwali with the hindu's, and ramadan is observed by everyone, and we all celebrate eid at the end of ramadan. i've even had eid prayers with policemen while helping them clean up the cannon.

this is all what a multicultural society is about, and the same could happen over here (my main argument) if it is allowed to mature under strict control.

but i agree with you, there's no problem allowing employable people into the country, they benefit the economy, but those who want to come here to take advantage of our benefit system should be stopped. they dont allow people to do it in dubai, we shouldn't let them here.

 

[Dobby]

on the other hand we also celebrate diwali with the hindu's, and ramadan is observed by everyone, and we all celebrate eid at the end of ramadan. i've even had eid prayers with policemen while helping them clean up the cannon.

this is all what a multicultural society is about, and the same could happen over here (my main argument) if it is allowed to mature under strict control.

.

my daughter is 5 but a couple of years ago when she was in nursery, they were taught about diwali before christmas/jesus, basically OUR religion which is C of E

I'm not a devout christian but i try to live by the 'rules' if you like of christianity

I was outraged that they were taught about anothers religion before their own in fact i actually complained to the school about it

certainly someone can agree with me that thats a valid point?

 

[jug]

i think they should be taught about all religions, the order is irrelevant, but most importantly they should be taught that religions are only a way of life (rules as you put it), and the differences do not warrant violence or hatred or fear. teach kids that different people should be allowed different opinions and lifestyles and beliefs. thats the important principle, not some story about a guy on a cross that has been changed and rewitten more times than the dictionary. all religions have been proven false, all of them. so whats the point in arguing about who's right if you're all wrong. science has answers, religion has stories. all religions have something to offer that can be useful in life, there shouldn't be a forced choice.

 

[Dobby]

i think they should be taught about all religions, the order is irrelevant, but most importantly they should be taught that religions are only way of life (rules as you put it), and the differences do not warrant violence or hatred or fear. teach kids that different people should be allowed different opinions and lifestyles and beliefs. thats the important principle, not some story about a guy on a cross that has been changed and rewitten more times than the dictionary. all religions have been proven false, all of them. so whats the point in arguing about who's right if you're all wrong. science has answers, religion has stories.

true, but religion is playing a stronger part in society than science. The order IS relevant, i personally don't see why my daughter should have to learn about any religion but her own, until recently muslim/sikh children taught at english schools were given the option to sit out at RE lessons and it isn't just a story about a guy on the cross. I find that quite offensive to be honest Jug, of course the bible has been re-written and has changed over the years but the principle remains the same.

 

[jug]

the principle does not remain the same, the principles of christianity have been modified to suit whoever was in control at the time, globally and nationally. the church of england has modified its own policies to maintain control of people and delivery whatever it wanted, usually power and money.

any religious person will be offended by the notion that their religion isnt completely correct and provides the best values for life, or that thier religious institution isnt acting in the best interests of its followers. thats natural, most people have been brainwashed into the idea that their religion is correct and offers the best way of life, so all others must be wrong. as with almost all religious people, you're suggesting that the brainwashing continues for another generation, and i know it will for many generations to come.

if you study religion rather than practice it you will see that they all have good and bad points, they all offer something useful and something that we would be better off without, but the important point is that none are actually correct, or better than any other.

the best possible education we can give the next generaiton is an unbiased awareness of all religions, and then let them make their own choice. but that can't happen because it is well known that when given that opportunity most people will not choose to be religious at all, and religions cant allow that to happen bacause it will destroy their power. so the brainwashing must continue, religion depends on it.

christianity was brought to the UK by the romans, so its not strictly speaking your daughters religion, and the romans got it from the middle east. it has changed so much so many times since then, but never has it changed to benefit those who practice it, only those who control it. it makes little difference which religion from the middle east you choose, judaism, christianity, islam, they all come from the same place, only at slightly different times. but whats the real differnece, they're all the same tool doing the same job, just in slightly different ways. its like comparing an open ended spanner, a ring spanner, and an adjustbale spanner, they all remove nuts at the end of the day. which one you use should depend on the situation, not what you've been told is best.

if science played a bigger part in how we live our lives than religion surely the world would be a better place. taking the uk as an example, remember all the violence that catholic and protestant people performed on each other. mass burnings, nasty torture, and attmepted genocide. over what? over nothing really, but what it was really about is power and control, not a few differences in beliefs, and its the same today and always will be.

one day education will finally defeat religion as we know it, i know i wont be alive to see it, but its inevitable and i sleep easier knowing it will happen. they cant keep people in the dark forever.

 

[Dobby]

christianity was brought to the UK by the romans, so its not strictly speaking your daughters religion, and the romans got it from the middel east. it has changed so much so many times since then, but never has it changed to benefot those who practice it, only those who control it.

explain after being christened and bought up to a standard of living within the religion she was christened into, how it is not her religion?

so what is it then? 'strictly speaking' of course

 

[jug]

its the jew's religion, they created it, well "stictly speaking" a small subset of jews created it. then it was discovered by the roman empire and they modified it to suit them and distributed it across their empire. then each member of the empire modified it to suit them. then in the later empire bulding (such as british empire) it was again distributed to the "collonies" and again modified to suit. which is why there are so many differnt flavours of chrisitanity, and they are so very different, and none are even similar to the original.

this is why christmas is not part of the older christian beleifs and is not practiced by the christians closest to where it originated. christmas was a pagan holiday that europeans were so fond of they decided to bolt it onto christianity and to make an excuse for having it they said it was to celebrate the birthday of jesus. thats false and not even close to his birthday according to traditional christian beliefs, as is most of the modificaiton that was done, but it shows perfectly how modification was done to suit the people at the time, and not to preserve the principles of the faith.

there are so many conflicting aspects of christianity and everyone believes theirs is correct, but they dont believe that because they have researched the issue and made a real determination, they believe it because its what they were brought up to believe. the madness has to stop, religion has burdened humanity for a very long time and caused so much suffering, death and misery. that alone should prove that there is no god, it at least proves that the value of religion does not justify the problems it causes.

i'm thankful everyday that i was not brainwashed as a child. i experienced all religions but i was never indoctrinated into any of them. this has given me an unbiased outsider's perspective of religion, and from where i stand they're all wrong, factually and morally and in terms of relevance in todays world. its such a shame i'm part of a small minority.