General Repair items cost check

[kuliand]

Hello, I just wanted to get some opinions on some costs I've been given by a garage for some repair work on my suspension. The suspension does feel like it has seen better days as it clatters around now and none of it has ever been replaced since the car left the factory. I haven't asked the garage yet but I assume the rear shock absorbers themselves need replacing and not just the mountings?? £190 seems a lot for just mounts so maybe this means the lot will be replaced.

• Both front wishbone rubbers perishing. £280 pair fitted
• Both rear shock absorber top mountings perishing. £190 pair fitted

Also is worth getting the rear axle replaced at the same time as the suspension is being done as it looks like that will need doing in the next 12-18 months.

Car details: 09, 1.3MJ, 180,000 miles

 

[porta]

Check your parts prices on shop4parts
New shocks come with the bushes and fitting them is a doddle on the 169 panda
180k is good going

 

[DaveMcT]

If it's not yet had the cam chain, I strongly recommend you get it replaced. My cam chain was hardly worn but the side links fatigue fractured. The broken rockers had good bearings, but least one other rocker was failing. It's needle rollers were in the head and the sump. It also had numerous worn lifters (aka tappets).

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

• Both front wishbone rubbers perishing. £280 pair fitted
• Both rear shock absorber top mountings perishing. £190 pair fitted

Also is worth getting the rear axle replaced at the same time as the suspension is being done as it looks like that will need doing in the next 12-18 months.

Car details: 09, 1.3MJ, 180,000 miles

Depends on what the hourly labour rate is? Suspension arms are pretty easy so I'd guess that figure is at the upper end of what's acceptable. The front arms from S4p are here: https://www.shop4parts.co.uk/?name=..._Panda_III_(09_to_12)_1.3_JTD_Suspension_Arms You can see there's quite a saving over retail there. Yes renew the pinch bolts too, they usually bend when tightened and are often so rusty they shouldn't be reused.

Similar story with the shocker prices and they can't just be quoting to replace the bushes surely? Only two bolts per side, so 4 bolts total to renew the shockers - has to be just minutes worth of time if they aren't corroded too badly - say allow half hour per side by the time the car's been fetched into the workshop, back axle jacked up or car put on a lift, wheels removed and the two bolts undone. Then reassembled with the new shocks and driven back out, work card completed and keys handed back to reception. All this as long as nothing is too seriously rusted.

Worth doing the rear axle? well that's a good question. Exactly how badly rusted is it? they seem to vary greatly. I asked Kenny round at Harrisons whether he fancied putting one in our 2010 169 Panda Eco dynamic 1.2 after it got an advisory on axle rust at it's last MOT. "Only if you've got deep pockets Jock" said he. The problem is that there's a lot can hold you up. The brake pipes need to be disconnected and are often very seriously corroded so he tells me they just cut the metal pipes and fit new ones - front to rear pipes we're talking here. The flexies are often on their last legs too or their nuts are so corrode they can't be quickly undone (and time is money when the garage is doing this, so fitting new flexies and metal pipes to the cylinders is often cheaper than trying to save the old ones. The cast hubs, retained by 4 studs and nuts each, have to be undone and swapped to the new axle and these nuts can put up a real fight. There's stuff like handbrake cables etc too. If you're doing it yourself it's well worth doing because pattern made axles are very reasonably priced: https://www.imaxle.co.uk/new-fiat-panda-axle But if you're paying the workshop labour? I have to question whether it's a wise investment? I think we are probably going to let Becky go on until they fail her then I'll park her up on my hard standing and see if I can get everything stripped down myself before actually buying the new axle. Probably worth doing as the rest of her is still looking pretty good and anyway, she's part of the family! Of course that means MRS J will have to borrow my Ibiza from time to time which will give me added incentive to get on with sorting Becky out!

 

[DaveMcT]

The brake pipe flare nuts will be seized. It's easy to cut the flexible and spin the fragment off the flare nut. Then heat the flare nuts enough to soften the plastic coating and they'll turn normally. When done a slap of grease or anti rust wax keeps rust at bay.

 

[kuliand]

Thanks for replies everyone. I had just assumed that the axle would have to come off anyway to do the rear shock absorbers but sounds like that isn't the case so would be a lot of extra work.

@DaveMcT Were you able to rescue your engine then after the timing chain failure?

I do wonder if it's time to just run the car into the ground and plan to replace it.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I do wonder if it's time to just run the car into the ground and plan to replace it.

I think the rear axle is the final straw for many of these small Fiats

 

[porta]

I think the rear axle is the final straw for many of these small Fiats

It is, but at least it’s not unique like the 100 and 4x4

 

[irc]

I think the rear axle is the final straw for many of these small Fiats

Done a few now.
Not had a real hassle with any if them, but I have problems with hubs I usually just leave them on the old beam and (after throwing the lot in the skip) use second hand ones i scavenged from other Pandas that weren't so lucky.
Deciding factor for me is rust in the sills or chassis rails - not worth the effort then.

 

[koalar]

Doesn't anyone else not see a problem with this

Both rear shock absorber top mountings perishing. £190 pair fitted

less than 10 minutes wheel off then two bolts and trade price on the shocks is around £15

Both front wishbone rubbers perishing. £280 pair fitted

Wheel off then 3 bolts with air tools on a ramp again around 10 minutes and trade price on arms is around around £45

You have to pay for their expertise
You have to pay a mark up on parts
They have other expenses

But £470 minus the £60 in parts leaves £410 for less than 1/2H

 

[irc]

Definitely on the expensive side, even if they are using genuine or good OEM parts.
Quite likely they are not, in which case it would be good to know what brands are being used.
I don't fit the cheapest parts, and old age is slowing me down, but I would expect garage price to be more like:
Pair of dampers £50, £30 Labour (1/2 hour)
Pair of lower arms, £80, £60 labour (1 hour)
Total £220 max, more probably £190 if problem free install of lower arms.
That would include new pinch bolts/nuts, and allows for a reasonable amount of profit.
Local independent mechanic probably nearer £150 to £180. Panda parts ARE cheap, after all.

But... I did buy a "broken" Panda a while back which had local garage bill for £500+ covering front and rear dampers & lower arms.
6 months and 3000 miles later top rear bushes totally ruined. (Probably tightened while jacked up)
Also the front top mount bearings were totally shagged, and the rubbers had gone powdery and solid. (Almost certainly not replaced with dampers)
The damper bolts looked like a dog had chewed them, and the pinch bolts were almost certainly the old ones re-used despite being crusty and bent.
Drop links were knackered too.
Oh, and the parts fitted were no-name stuff which already had surface corrosion.
Sadly not much expertise there.
(Changed out the cheap/knackered parts, and replaced the undiagnosed failed coil and it's a nice little runner again.)

 

[koalar]

Definitely on the expensive side, even if they are using genuine or good OEM parts.
Quite likely they are not, in which case it would be good to know what brands are being used.
I don't fit the cheapest parts, and old age is slowing me down, but I would expect garage price to be more like:
Pair of dampers £50, £30 Labour (1/2 hour)
Pair of lower arms, £80, £60 labour (1 hour)
Total £220 max, more probably £190 if problem free install of lower arms.
That would include new pinch bolts/nuts, and allows for a reasonable amount of profit.
Local independent mechanic probably nearer £150 to £180. Panda parts ARE cheap, after all.

I agree

Unfortantly finding decent garages isn't easy, seems to have gotten worse post pandemic

Long gone are the day of my childhood where every village had a local chap doing a fair days work for a fair price. There was a lot of competition . Often if something was a quick fix they would do it free of charge knowing you would come back for a service and MOT. Now there's fewer garages it's all about maximising profits


None of which helps the original poster of which we know very little. If they have the space and are willing to get their hands dirty. Might be time to invest in a few tools or enrol on a car maintenance course. Just a thought

 

[porta]

We’ve still got one, a bloke who’ll tackle anything and be reasonable, that mainly does bodywork….problem is that he just doesn’t say no, so you’ll get your motor eventually…the line of vehicles moves like a glacier

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Many workshops won't charge less than an hour's labour these days, maybe a factor?

 

[vexorg]

But £470 minus the £60 in parts leaves £410 for less than 1/2H

We all know 10 minute jobs are never 10 minutes. Add a 14 year old fiat then they'll be thinking rusted seized nuts.

Front lower arms are not that cheap, £50 to £120 on ECP, think I paid around £50 for Napa ones a couple of years ago, and all prices have gone up.

And as always, if dont like the price, do it yourself.

 

[irc]

Many workshops won't charge less than an hour's labour these days, maybe a factor?

I think they caught the "rounding up" habit a while ago, and it seems to have got worse with the "workshop management" software which seems to be almost everywhere now.

On the other hand, i think the legal profession may have been doing that since clocks were invented.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Could be they don't really want to do the job, got to be much easier ways to make money than working on a potentially rusty old FIAT? So they simply price it at a point where they will make a good profit from the job?, possibly hoping you'll just go away - or elsewhere?

 

[rmjbn1]

I do wonder if it's time to just run the car into the ground and plan to replace it.

I think that depends on the overall condition of the car, how it's been maintained, do you want to keep it...

...also do you feel you could do any maintenance yourself?

These front wishbones and rear shocks are consumables. Parts are cheap, but you can expect more consumables to keep cropping up. If you have to take it in to the garage every few months for another few hundred quid each time, it can get expensive.

For someone used to diy maintenance, it would make much more sense to replace consumables and rustproof the rear axle rather than let the car get beyond repair.

As stated above, the wishbones and rear shocks are two of the easier jobs... but you'll need axle stands, decent jack and tools. And you absolutely shouldn't get under a car unless you know you can do it safely.

I'd suggest you have a look at Charlie's excellent guide to replacing the shocks and treating the axle to see if you think you could manage it:

Panda REAR Suspension replacement

With the Panda in 1st gear, and chocks around the FRONT wheels. I use a trolley jack on the centre of the rear suspension beam to raise the complete REAR of the Panda, then I used 2 x axlestands - with wooden load spreaders on the 2 x rear...

www.fiatforum.com

 

[koalar]

We all know 10 minute jobs are never 10 minutes. Add a 14 year old fiat then they'll be thinking rusted seized nuts.

Front lower arms are not that cheap, £50 to £120 on ECP, think I paid around £50 for Napa ones a couple of years ago, and all prices have gone up.

And as always, if dont like the price, do it yourself.

You pay a retail price

Tade account is up to 50% less

If a garage can't replace all 4 parts with proper garage equipment in 1/2 hour and a ramp they shouldn't be trading an hour ramp time is generous

A clutch can be done in less than an hour but that's really pushing it

 

[MrMagoo]

I'm going to Koalars to get my clutch done.