Technical Po236-7a and po236-61

[theoneandonly]

Well, changed the MAP sensor and the boost solenoid, but still the same issue - po236. Runs fine until I get about 2 miles up the road and start accelerating out of town. Attached a graph of desired vs actual boost, if this can help? You can see where the engine light comes on and the turbo gets shut down.

Have you got a screenshot of the freeze frame data?
Any csv files?
Have you checked the turbo actuTor?
For canbus errors need to check ecu connectors, clean connections

 

[Fredastaire]

@Gravelrash , some thoughts perhaps.
1/. What make MAP have you fitted?
2/. Have you looked to flush out the intercooler? If not then you do it with petrol, you fit a disposable plastic vinyl over one end and tie with many rubber bands before adding the petrol. One the petrol does the flushing, two if there is a fin air leak the petrol will find it immediately.
3/. Check all the wiring for rubbing abrasion damage

 

[Gravelrash]

Have you got a screenshot of the freeze frame data?
Any csv files?
Have you checked the turbo actuTor?
For canbus errors need to check ecu connectors, clean connections

Yeah, got some live data. I'll post it up here tomorrow. Are there any particular parameters that'd help, without making it look like a kiddies squiggle? Tomorrow's job is headlight out, fuse box open and ECU connectors checked. It's a recent ECU, about two months old, but you never know if moisture's penetrated it or a connector's worked loose. How do you get at the turbo actuator? I used to think my Trafic was tight for space, but the Ducato's beaten it and then some.

@Gravelrash , some thoughts perhaps.
1/. What make MAP have you fitted?
2/. Have you looked to flush out the intercooler? If not then you do it with petrol, you fit a disposable plastic vinyl over one end and tie with many rubber bands before adding the petrol. One the petrol does the flushing, two if there is a fin air leak the petrol will find it immediately.
3/. Check all the wiring for rubbing abrasion damage

It's a genuine Bosch. Not been able to find any abrasion damage so far. Ideally, I'd like to trace the pins on the map connector back, but I've absolutely no idea where they terminate.

 

[theoneandonly]

Yeah, got some live data. I'll post it up here tomorrow. Are there any particular parameters How do you get at the turbo actuator? I used to think my Trafic was tight for space, but the Ducato's beaten it and then some.

It's a genuine Bosch. Not been able to find any abrasion damage so far. Ideally, I'd like to trace the pins on the map connector back, but I've absolutely no idea where they terminate.

see template4.
turbo actuator is visible from underneath. You can make it work to order with mes and the solenoid test.

 

[Gravelrash]

see template4.
turbo actuator is visible from underneath. You can make it work to order with mes and the solenoid test.

View attachment 445605

@theoneandonly @Fredastaire Here's the CSV for the live data, using the template above. Didn't get very far, pretty much up to the end of town. Hopefully you can discern something useful from this!

 

[theoneandonly]

@theoneandonly @Fredastaire Here's the CSV for the live data, using the template above. Didn't get very far, pretty much up to the end of town. Hopefully you can discern something useful from this!

Not very far not even upto temperature (max was 77C)
But we can see a few things
the egrs are moving ie not stuck
the fuel pressure ok
The differential DPF sensor in ok range
The turbo pressure not good it went into limp mode
Actual not following desired at all, youve replaced the MAp how about the turbo solenoid.
Obvious: turbo not doing as expected
turbo solenoid.
turbo actuator
pipe leakage
boost leakage
turbo dead?

Ps was in Boyes Louth on Thursday but wont be up there again for a long time. Just cleared out MILs house for sale.

 

[Fredastaire]

@theoneandonly , can you put my latest LP EGR graph on and @Gravelrash on ( no other graphs) so we can compare.
Gravelrash LP seems to spend a lot of time nearly full open.
If the cooler is nearly blocked then the turbo will be unable to suck and reach pressure.

 

[Gravelrash]

Not very far not even upto temperature (max was 77C)
But we can see a few things
the egrs are moving ie not stuck
the fuel pressure ok
The differential DPF sensor in ok range
The turbo pressure not good it went into limp mode
Actual not following desired at all, youve replaced the MAp how about the turbo solenoid.
Obvious: turbo not doing as expected
turbo solenoid.
turbo actuator
pipe leakage
boost leakage
turbo dead?

@theoneandonly you're a star mate yeah, boost is nowhere near desired. Followed the hoses around and no obvious issues - replaced the solenoid with the map, activates fine in MES. Still got to check the actuator, but it's absolutely pissing it down here. Checked and reseated the ECU connectors, nothing obvious in the fuse box. Not much else I can do, other than cart it to a fiat workshop.

Shopping in Boyes is like having your soul drained

 

[Gravelrash]

@theoneandonly , can you put my latest LP EGR graph on and @Gravelrash on ( no other graphs) so we can compare.
Gravelrash LP seems to spend a lot of time nearly full open.
If the cooler is nearly blocked then the turbo will be unable to suck and reach pressure.

Wouldn't the LP be open whatever? Barely made it to 30mph.

 

[Fredastaire]

@Gravelrash if you read through the 48 page big post that I started, somewhere half way through is a diagram I drew of the LP EGR
This device has two inbuilt systems driven from the one stepper motor. The motor has a special disc cam. Circa half way through opening the exhaust port it then begins to close off the air pipe from the air filter. So at LP fully open it's closed off any fresh air, hence if the cooler is blocking them the turbo can't suck.
I look to see the graphs yours and mine to compare.
.
Edit
.
I think you need to try and do a twenty/ thirty minute run where the LP temperature can be graphed. Is it possible you can keep your foot off and do a longer run before limp happens so you're not trying to push the engine to work hard?? Or is that impossible?

 

[theoneandonly]

the engine went into limp mode before getting warm. what was error codes freeze frame. if you can do a run (if errors come up, deleate and try to get 20mins from there that will give the info that we need to see if you have blocked lpegr cooler. As freastaire says try to get it warm on lower loads before giving it beans.

 

[Gravelrash]

the engine went into limp mode before getting warm. what was error codes freeze frame. if you can do a run (if errors come up, deleate and try to get 20mins from there that will give the info that we need to see if you have blocked lpegr cooler. As freastaire says try to get it warm on lower loads before giving it beans.

Absolutely won't go any further than that - comes on pretty much within half a mile every time the codes are cleared. Not even managed to get out of the thirty limit.

 

[jackwhoo]

@theoneandonly you're a star mate yeah, boost is nowhere near desired. Followed the hoses around and no obvious issues - replaced the solenoid with the map, activates fine in MES. Still got to check the actuator, but it's absolutely pissing it down here. Checked and reseated the ECU connectors, nothing obvious in the fuse box. Not much else I can do, other than cart it to a fiat workshop.

Shopping in Boyes is like having your soul drained

If it is a blocked egr strainer as in the 49 page main thread Fiat professional do not understand it-they will replace a lot of expensive parts at great expense before getting to actual problem.

 

[Fredastaire]

Still thinking......
.
Have you actually got vacuum being produced by the vacuum system? I guess there is only one engine pump and guess it's also providing for the brake servo. As I assume your brakes are fine then I assume the vac pump must itself be working.a branch pipe sucks the black box reservoir tank, in turn a pipe goes to the solenoid.
.
So if you take the pipe off the solenoid and run the engine at tickover is there vacuum at this pipe? If your assistant now stops the engine does this pipe hold vacuum?
.
I am just brainstorming to give thoughtful ideas.....
.
I think I've read of vacuum reservoir tanks leaking....
.
Have you removed and checked the intercooler yet?

 

[Gravelrash]

If it is a blocked egr strainer as in the 49 page main thread Fiat professional do not understand it-they will replace a lot of expensive parts at great expense before getting to actual problem.

Away with work from Tuesday onwards, so not got a lot of choice on solutions. Strainer was cleaned out alongside the engine rebuild, and that was less than 2500 miles ago.

Still thinking......
.
Have you actually got vacuum being produced by the vacuum system? I guess there is only one engine pump and guess it's also providing for the brake servo. As I assume your brakes are fine then I assume the vac pump must itself be working.a branch pipe sucks the black box reservoir tank, in turn a pipe goes to the solenoid.
.
So if you take the pipe off the solenoid and run the engine at tickover is there vacuum at this pipe? If your assistant now stops the engine does this pipe hold vacuum?
.
I am just brainstorming to give thoughtful ideas.....
.
I think I've read of vacuum reservoir tanks leaking....
.
Have you removed and checked the intercooler yet?

Got vacuum, or at least partial at standstill and low revs, otherwise the turbo wouldn't of spooled up at all. Turbo kicks over fine until it goes into error, if not with enough pressure. Not been able to touch the intercooler, it's been hammering down and I've not got cover.

One thing I noticed last thing this afternoon - this hose has a pinch point, but I'm not sure of it's part of the vacuum system (attached). Thought screw it and squeezed it back into shape with a pair of mole grips while driving, but same fault.

 

[theoneandonly]

Is there any information available on what the regeneration temperature normally should be? For my 2018 with Comfortmatic, I can see in present and older MES logs that the average temperature of last regenerations has been 630 - 640 °C.
Software is still V 24, will try to get it updated this summer.

https://www.fiatforum.com/threads/d...r-changed-what-do-i-check-next.491167/page-50 #981
Info on 2 engines in 600 to 630 range

 

[jackwhoo]

Away with work from Tuesday onwards, so not got a lot of choice on solutions. Strainer was cleaned out alongside the engine rebuild, and that was less than 2500 miles ago.

Got vacuum, or at least partial at standstill and low revs, otherwise the turbo wouldn't of spooled up at all. Turbo kicks over fine until it goes into error, if not with enough pressure. Not been able to touch the intercooler, it's been hammering down and I've not got cover.

One thing I noticed last thing this afternoon - this hose has a pinch point, but I'm not sure of it's part of the vacuum system (attached). Thought screw it and squeezed it back into shape with a pair of mole grips while driving, but same fault.

Be very careful with the aluminium pipe and hose it is air conditioning system- you could be seriously injured and or made blind .

 

[jackwhoo]

Regarding regeneration temperatures the average temp reading does not show peak temperature so isn't helpful in deciding to update software. Get software updated.

 

[Gravelrash]

Still thinking......
.
Have you actually got vacuum being produced by the vacuum system? I guess there is only one engine pump and guess it's also providing for the brake servo. As I assume your brakes are fine then I assume the vac pump must itself be working.a branch pipe sucks the black box reservoir tank, in turn a pipe goes to the solenoid.
.
So if you take the pipe off the solenoid and run the engine at tickover is there vacuum at this pipe? If your assistant now stops the engine does this pipe hold vacuum?

Got it booked on with a garage up the road on Thursday, but got a new vacuum gauge arriving this afternoon (never lend tools!). I'll get that teed in and have a proper check.

 

[Fredastaire]

Does anybody know how the turbo adjust works on the 130 engine? I'm assuming that the vacuum solenoid is either closed or open such that the turbo actuator is either full on or full off.
I can't see it being available.
(The 150 and 180 is variable and has a feedback position sensor for the ECU. [I think] ).
So at rest is the actuator full in or full out?