Technical How old is this timing belt?

[The Panda Nut]

No idea on age, but that looks pretty shot.

The only way to know for sure is any history or invoices, or as I found on the last belt I did, was a manufacturing date mark on the tensioner, but that's no definite proof of fitting date.

No totally shot! Bet its the original one. Time to change it quick. I have a manual if I find anything additional I will add it here

 

[jackwhoo]

your crank locking tool could be poorly made(there are threads mentioning tool errors)
I would trust two identical length pins measuring piston height to find "mid stroke" over the dumbbell tool you have.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Thanks @Pugglt Auld Jock for the write-up. Yes - the crank is locked with the dumbell tool. But my engine has bore holess (front and back) where I can lock the cams with a key (you can see one in the pic bottom right - black). I don't have to remove the cam cover. I also would have expected the rods to be at equal height as that's what I've seen on YouTube and read in the guides. Mine were slighly off when I locked it (just like in the image) before starting to loosen the timing belt and replacing it.

How would I go about lining up the rods and the camshafts? During the procedure for changing the belt, I do need to loosen the cam pulley bolt to get the new timing belt on. I need to keep the crankshaft locked with the tool right?

If anyone has guides on this to share, it would be greatly appreciated.

Trouble is I'm not entirely familiar with this engine. However, from what I've read, the crankshaft position is set on this engine using the rods to detect when all the pistons are at "half mast" - which is checked by setting pistons No1 and No2 exactly half way up/down the bores using the rods. with the cam locking tools in place there can be no doubt that the cams are correctly positioned but the position of the rods would seem to indicate that either you're a tooth out on the pulleys or a pulley is incorrectly placed on the cam - I'm assuming the crank pulley is keyed and not damaged in any way (for instance the keyway) I don't know if the cam pulley on these is keyed or not, but if not keyed then it may have been wrongly positioned at some time in the past.

I don't think the Dumbell crankshaft locking tool is used on this engine? and using it may be misleading you. Try taking the crank locking tool away altogether, slackening, or better still, removing the cam belt and turning the crankshaft until the rods are exactly equal heights. Now, because the cams are locked with the tools and the crank is correctly set with the rods you can be sure the relationship between the cam and crankshaft are as they should be when the engine is running. However you'll now find you can't get the belt to mesh with the teeth on the pulleys because they are positioned as they will be when the belt is fully tensioned. You'll need to turn the crankshaft anticlockwise just enough to get the teeth to mesh. Having got the belt onto the pulleys next tension the tensioner enough to stop it - the belt - jumping off the pulleys and turn the crankshaft clockwise to take up the slack and tension the "Driving side" - which is the length of belt from the cam pulley, round the water pump to the crankshaft pulley. don't let the belt jump any teeth. All this time the cams are locked by the two tools in the cam cover. Now you should find that the rods are level indicating the pistons are all at "half mast". If you fins they aren't then one of the pulleys must have moved on their respective shafts. If the cam pulley is unkeyed (as on the 1.2) then this is the most likely candidate. However there's always the small possibility that the crank pulley has a damaged keyway - it's not very deep. Lt's just hope that when you've tried what I suggest above you find it all falls into place.

Anyone else like to chip in? am I misleading our friend with what I'm saying here? All comments are most welcome.

 

[jackwhoo]

@Pugglt Auld Jock
Hi Jock,
I think you have "nailed" it.
Currently I'm not in a position to write long messages.
Best wishes
Jack

 

[jackwhoo]

The only thing may add is using dumbbell tool on crank pulley (not with locking end bolted too engine block) will help make sure crank is not 180 degrees out .

I would lock cams using correct tools, loosen cam sprocket bolt correctly, fit piston height pins, turn crank gently a few degrees ONLY so pins same height, tighten cam sprocket bolt, remove cam locks,rotate crank twice, refit cam locks , refit piston height pins and recheck.

Making 100% sure to correctly hold cam sprocket while loosening/ tightening bolt so as not to damage cam shaft of locking pins

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

The only thing may add is using dumbbell tool on crank pulley (not with locking end bolted too engine block) will help make sure crank is not 180 degrees out .

Would it matter - crankshaft I mean? Camshaft yes because it goes at half crank speed. Not trying to "win" any points with this, it's just made me think for a minute and I stand ready to be corrected.

I would lock cams using correct tools, loosen cam sprocket bolt correctly, fit piston height pins, turn crank gently a few degrees ONLY so pins same height, tighten cam sprocket bolt, remove cam locks,rotate crank twice, refit cam locks , refit piston height pins and recheck.

Making 100% sure to correctly hold cam sprocket while loosening/ tightening bolt so as not to damage cam shaft of locking pins

So the cam pulley is free floating? ie, no key?

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

What's "bothering" me about this particular one is that I know the dumbell locking tool sets the pistons on the 8 valve engines at mid stroke - ie, all level. So I'd expect that, with the dumbell installed on the crank pulley of this engine, those rods resting on the top of the pistons would be level. The fact that they are not might, maybe, indicate that the crankshaft pulley has moved relative to the crankshaft - as in sheared, or partially sheared, key in the pulley - as we know it's not a very deeply formed integral part of the pulley, as can be seen here - Not like a normal woodruff key.

Pardon our interruption...

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Would it matter - crankshaft I mean? Camshaft yes because it goes at half crank speed. Not trying to "win" any points with this, it's just made me think for a minute and I stand ready to be corrected.

Ah, sorry, just realized what you mean Jack. DOH!

 

[YellowPuntoFiat]

Ah, sorry, just realized what you mean Jack. DOH!

Hello again, here is an update. So I was able to get the tool aligned better and re-tightenend everything (see image). Put most of it together and started the engine... seems to be running well!

Thanks for everyones help. These discussions really helped me understand what was going on and why things were working.

Now for my next questions.
1. In the second picture, there is this thing on top of the engine holding it down with two bolts and also has an electric connector. What is it? I'd like to know because we had to unscrew the bolts to get access to the spark plug and I just wanted to know whether they have a specific torque setting.

2. Anybody have experience with re-threading? Unfortunately, my son over-torqued the bolts for the engine bracket (I stepped away for a bit) and the threads are stripped. I purchased a thread repair kit (https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07W6TH9BH?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_fed_asin_title ) but never had any experience with this. Fingers crossed...

At least the engine is running!

 

[jackwhoo]

Ah, sorry, just realized what you mean Jack. DOH!

Hi Jock ,

You made me question myself .... you tyke

For anyone wondering, pistons can be all level in bores twice per revolution,
Once when piston rising and once when piston descending.

Cheers
Jack

 

[PuntoHowTo]

What's "bothering" me about this particular one is that I know the dumbell locking tool sets the pistons on the 8 valve engines at mid stroke - ie, all level. So I'd expect that, with the dumbell installed on the crank pulley of this engine, those rods resting on the top of the pistons would be level.

you’re right jock

So with the “dumbbell” on the crank shaft all the pistons should be at the mid point In the bore.

However there can be some difference depending on the quality of the locking tools, any play in the bolt holes of the locking tool and if there are deposit build ups on the piston tops.

So there can be a number of reasons for a small difference, I’d probably move the pins around between the other cylinders to see if the difference was specific to one cylinder or if 2&3 1&4 are the same heights as one another then the difference might just be slop in the locking tool

It might be worth the OP loosening the bolts a little on the crank locking tool and seeing if there is any movement in the crank with the bolts loosened slightly.

There is no key on the cam pulley the cam pulley position is set relative to the top end locking tools and then tightened down to torque.