Technical Timing issue

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Same with "phonic wheel reset/adaptation/whatever". It is one of the most useless features in the FES/MES programs.
It does almost nothing (cosmetic changes). It has nothing to do with the engine starting (or not). So forget about it for now.
Clueless people are fixated, obsessed with it (forums are full of "advice" like that: have you done The Reset, do the reset, you must do the reset, your car needs a phonic wheel procedure, learning, reset,...crazy). Engine won't start = phonic wheel reset. Rough idle = phonic wheel reset. Misfire = reset...

True. The engine runs fine - providing you've got the timing set right of course - even if it's comes up needing the reset. However the CEL will be lit so you'll fail MOT next time round. Also, if you're going to drive around with the CEL lit and ignore it then you may well miss that it's telling you something else much more important and maybe expensive to fix?

 

[GrandePunto PL]

The term should not be used here until the OP starts the engine. Then he can fool around with cosmetic touch-up (resets/adaptations etc).
Bad timing (so bad it trips the CheckEngine) has nothing to do with phonic wheel (assuming it is mechanically OK, installed properly).
It (reset/learning procedure) is also NOT a way to "fix" bad timing. By the way (with bad timing +/- one tooth) engine still must start.

Real goal is to have mechanically good timing, not fooling ECU, that timing is "better" (by using software tricks/resets)!
There is a play in the timing tools...and the phonic wheel (before you tighten the bolts)... Plus VVT (another can of worms).

Question: which position is the correct one? Where should I "freeze" the phonic wheel (torque 3 bolts)?

Performing a "phonic wheel learn reset" can do more "harm" than good. You don't know which way you're fooling the ECU.
Don't do it for the sake of doing it. Just because there is an option, doesn't mean you "must" use it (monkey see, monkey click buttons).

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

The term should not be used here until the OP starts the engine. Then he can fool around with cosmetic touch-up (resets/adaptations etc).
Bad timing (so bad it trips the CheckEngine) has nothing to do with phonic wheel (assuming it is mechanically OK, installed properly).
It (reset/learning procedure) is also NOT a way to "fix" bad timing. By the way (with bad timing +/- one tooth) engine still must start.

Real goal is to have mechanically good timing, not fooling ECU, that timing is "better" (by using software tricks/resets)!
There is a play in the timing tools...and the phonic wheel (before you tighten the bolts)... Plus VVT (another can of worms).
View attachment 466745
Question: which position is the correct one? Where should I "freeze" the phonic wheel (torque 3 bolts)?
View attachment 466746
Performing a "phonic wheel learn reset" can do more "harm" than good. You don't know which way you're fooling the ECU.
Don't do it for the sake of doing it. Just because there is an option, doesn't mean you "must" use it (monkey see, monkey click buttons).

I see what you're going on about. However there's always been "manufacturing tolerance" in mass production. If this were a performance engine I'd be very unhappy with this amount of variance but for a wee Fiat Fire engine? It's not going to worry me too much if I loose such a small amount of performance I'm not going to notice it or waste a few drops of fuel. I've noticed that that play exists but I have found that if you tighten the 3 bolts until they are just more than finger tight then most of that backlash play goes away - at least it did when I experimented with it.

The Phonic Wheel relearn doesn't "fool" the ECU into anything all it does is instruct the ECU to accept the existing crank/cam position sensor readings as ok and run with them. If the timing is incorrect doing a relearn won't sort it, it must be mechanically correct for that.

I agree with you that our OP needs to get the engine running before thinking about niceties like whether he needs to do a relearn. I do think it would be wise to get the cam timing correct - ie. not one tooth out - so that any poor running is then known not to be due to the timing being out. However I fear it may well turn out there's much bigger problems lurking in this engine from what was said back at the beginning of this thread.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I've noticed that that play exists but I have found that if you tighten the 3 bolts until they are just more than finger tight then most of that backlash play goes away - at least it did when I experimented with it.

Of course just because the play has been minimised by doing this doesn't mean the tools are correctly positioned, or that the phonic wheel is presenting it's timing aperture in the correct position in relation to piston position in the bore. However if you're going to go looking to eliminate that you're going to need to break out the crankshaft degree wheel and a DTI to read piston position. Unfortunately most of us just have to "play" with the "toys" we've got - Unfortunately it's an imperfect world damn it!

 

[Scottieo321]

So update to the update, all put into place so that the tools line up perfectly. She starts but she's very very shaky (I'll upload the vid) to the point everything inside and out is madly shaking.

Plus side she starts and no engine light either and no errors showing up.

I'm guessing the shaking is something to do with the fuel intake but again I've no clue and not guna start messing till I've got a full indication.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

stick the air cleaner and breather pipes back on and see how she goes. Sometimes it can make quite a difference. It would be interesting to hear what she sound like if you give her a bit of a rev up to see what happens under a bit of load.

 

[Scottieo321]

stick the air cleaner and breather pipes back on and see how she goes. Sometimes it can make quite a difference. It would be interesting to hear what she sound like if you give her a bit of a rev up to see what happens under a bit of load.

Stuck it all back on 100% made all the difference, still quite the shake when idol but not as bad.

Here's another vid along with a few revs.

 

[GrandePunto PL]

Test drive will tell (how the engine is performing under real load, not at idle).
Also OBD2 data + exhaust gas analysis would help to pinpoint the problematic area (is it fuel/air, is it ignition, exhaust leak or what).
Air filter box shaking is "acceptable" in old FIRE units, especially after such "adventures" (bent valves etc.). Not much you can do now.
Combustion process and so on is probably not perfect (something is uneven between cylinders), valves are still not 100% OK etc.
But it will run relatively "fine". Good job reviving it.

Now you can MESs-around with software resets, learning procedures, whatever...

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Stuck it all back on 100% made all the difference, still quite the shake when idol but not as bad.

Here's another vid along with a few revs.

I'd be tempted to just run it like this for a while and see if it settles down of it's own accord. Always listening out in case something seems to be not doing so well in which case further investigation might be needed. Often, when an engine has had a lot of stuff done to it like this it does take a few miles to settle down.

 

[Mike1alike]

First thing, you should recheck the timing. One tooth off can give you that shake. Check via diagnose tool what value do you have on "Spark advance", "Spark advance reduction".
And since your camshaft pulley has the timing mark, you can check it old school. Check the crankshaft TDC by the flywheel in the flywheel housing at the opposite end of the engine and camshaft pulley should be aligned with the head mark. I marked on your photo the camshaft pulley and the other one is how the flywheel should sit.
Also, I would say the engine support might give that shake if it is worn. But if the engine ran smoothly before you did this repairing, that's not the case.

 

[Mike1alike]

P.S.: Did you do the correct valves clearances?

 

[AnthonyH]

Stuck it all back on 100% made all the difference, still quite the shake when idol but not as bad.

Here's another vid along with a few revs.

A shakey airbox isn't anything to worry about. I imagine it drives just fine now. Job done?

What exactly did you do wrong?

 

[Scottieo321]

First thing, you should recheck the timing. One tooth off can give you that shake. Check via diagnose tool what value do you have on "Spark advance", "Spark advance reduction".
And since your camshaft pulley has the timing mark, you can check it old school. Check the crankshaft TDC by the flywheel in the flywheel housing at the opposite end of the engine and camshaft pulley should be aligned with the head mark. I marked on your photo the camshaft pulley and the other one is how the flywheel should sit.
Also, I would say the engine support might give that shake if it is worn. But if the engine ran smoothly before you did this repairing, that's not the case.

If I put the crank to where the flywheel is at 0 then the engine will not start which is why it's been done with pistons half mast and it's started first time each time.

Don't have any sort of diagnostic tool part from cheap little OBD2 so that's no good unfortunately.

Going to give it a run for a few days see if it's ok or not I'm hoping it is but I'm dare betting there's more damage than can be seen.

 

[Scottieo321]

A shakey airbox isn't anything to worry about. I imagine it drives just fine now. Job done?

What exactly did you do wrong?

Trying to put it at TDC by the crank and the cam, unfortunately doing with the crank it won't start but having it at half mast it's working which technically as pug and grande said it's TDC +90° and that's getting it going, only time will tell if it runs fine or not but there was plenty wrong with this engine before I got my hands on it.