Technical How old is this timing belt?

[vexorg]

It's useful to think of this "problem" in this way because no matter how "hard" the piston tries to "suck" the air into the cylinder you can't get more than a 14.7 lbs/sq in pressure differential between the outside of the engine and inside the cylinder which must, no matter what you try to do by way of camshaft and inlet design, be the final limiting factor.

You can get higher that atmosphere in the cylinder under right conditions, effectively the race tuned engines are optimised for a specific band and in that band, the momentum of the flow of air can push more than 100% VE (volumetric efficiency).

Not really practical for a road car, and why vhanging the valve timing can help move towards that.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I get that, thanks. One last question - is the extra mass in the pulley just mass, electronics or something else?

It's hydraulic with moving parts. Try you tube, there are some videos which describe it with animation much better than I can here in words.

I have found a timing belt tool set for the non vvt 1.2 L 8v for £11. Won't do the 1.4 but I can get that later.

All good

Be interesting to see an illustration of that £11 set? The ones I've seen at this price point are very basic and I doubt if you can buy just the "extra" bits you'll need to do the VVT engine on it's own so you might be better to buy a more comprehensive kit now and just have done with it?

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

You can get higher that atmosphere in the cylinder under right conditions, effectively the race tuned engines are optimised for a specific band and in that band, the momentum of the flow of air can push more than 100% VE (volumetric efficiency).

Not really practical for a road car, and why vhanging the valve timing can help move towards that.

Yup, high lift and long duration allowing some ram effect and produces power over a narrow rev range and usually at very high revs so, as you say not really practical for a road going engine. I always liked Honda's VTEC and even more interestingly, for everyday use, their i-VTEC as used in the normally aspirated 1.8 Civic engine. Very clever when you go into it in some depth.

 

[jte]

Hi,

Here is the explanation how the VVT works.

INTRODUCTION - TIMING SYSTEM - Fiat - GRANDE PUNTO - eLearn - 4CarData

 

[vexorg]

A 1.2 16v would have given a better engine, more power and less hassle

 

[AnthonyH]

It's hydraulic with moving parts. Try you tube, there are some videos which describe it with animation much better than I can here in words.

Be interesting to see an illustration of that £11 set? The ones I've seen at this price point are very basic and I doubt if you can buy just the "extra" bits you'll need to do the VVT engine on it's own so you might be better to buy a more comprehensive kit now and just have done with it?

The £11 toolset is here;

Camshaft Timing Tool for Fiat 500/Punto Evo/Panda/ Engine 1.1 1.2 1.4 Litre 8V | eBay

Grande Punto (2007-2008). Timing Tool Kit for locking camshaft and crankshaft when changing timing belt on Fiat and Chrysler 1.1 Eco, 1.2 and 1.4 8V liter petrol engines. - Panda (2003-2012). -1,1, 1,2 and 1,4 8V liter.

www.ebay.co.uk

I can get another toolset for the 1.4L engines for £23, so all in it works out a little cheaper than Nielsen set you bought which are £41. It is possible your set is higher quality, the tradeoff is that I'd be getting two possibly lower quality sets.

 

[AnthonyH]

Hi,

Here is the explanation how the VVT works.

INTRODUCTION - TIMING SYSTEM - Fiat - GRANDE PUNTO - eLearn - 4CarData

Thanks for that. I wasn't expecting to see engine oil inside the pulley or any hydraulics. I like.

 

[vexorg]

I know some cheaper ones don't quite fit as well, I have a vauxhall corsa one that needed a little tweak or two to make it all fit in. Not affecting hte timing in any way, more to holes didn't quite line up with the head.

 

[AnthonyH]

I've noted the quality problem myself, and others have also mentioned buy good quality tools. I'll have another look.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I've noted the quality problem myself, and others have also mentioned buy good quality tools. I'll have another look.

I'm very happy with the Nielsen set I bought. Robust and "nice" to use. Bergen seems to be an equivalent brand name and I have a number of tools from this brand, sockets etc, all good quality and have withstood some pretty extreme usage.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Thanks for that. I wasn't expecting to see engine oil inside the pulley or any hydraulics. I like.

Warned you, much earlier in this thread, to be ready with a wad of cloth, to catch the oil when you remove the plug in the middle of the cam pulley on VVT pulleys. It's only oil inside the pulley so not a great deal but makes a bit of a mess if you're not ready for it.

 

[YellowPuntoFiat]

I wasn't going to wait until it snapped no, its more like i'm building up the motivation to learn what would be a new skill for me, with the associated risk of failure and frustration and financial cost.

Hi, like @AnthonyH I feel that having taken a look (see attached photo) I have found the motivation to do this job. Based on my analysis after reading the comments this is probably original? I purchased the car second hand without any details from previous owner maintenance.

Since I will be taking the engine apart, what other maintenance should I include during this job? Some of the timing kits come with water pumps. Should this be done at the same time? Anything else?

It's a 2008 FIAT GRANDE PUNTO 1.4 16V. Fun to drive!

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Hi, like @AnthonyH I feel that having taken a look (see attached photo) I have found the motivation to do this job. Based on my analysis after reading the comments this is probably original? I purchased the car second hand without any details from previous owner maintenance.

Since I will be taking the engine apart, what other maintenance should I include during this job? Some of the timing kits come with water pumps. Should this be done at the same time? Anything else?

It's a 2008 FIAT GRANDE PUNTO 1.4 16V. Fun to drive!

My rule of thumb is that if the timing belt drives the water pump then, no matter what make the vehicle is, I will do the water pump too. It probably needs the antifreeze changed anyway and you're going to loose most of the old coolant when you take the pump out anyway. Oh, and just fit a new aux (fan) belt while you're in there.

Edit, Oh, and yes, that belt needs changed.

 

[YellowPuntoFiat]

My rule of thumb is that if the timing belt drives the water pump then, no matter what make the vehicle is, I will do the water pump too. It probably needs the antifreeze changed anyway and you're going to loose most of the old coolant when you take the pump out anyway. Oh, and just fit a new aux (fan) belt while you're in there.

Edit, Oh, and yes, that belt needs changed.

Hello,
so I when through the whole process and now I just want to make sure that all is good. This is probably a newbie question but I hope the experts can clarify it for me.

After fitting the new belt and removing the timing kit, the instructions are to turn the crankshaft two complete turns and refit the timing kit.

What I did was mark above the camshaft pulley and on the belt a mark and then turned the camshaft until the mark passed twice. The problem is that this did not align the camshaft and crankshaft so that I can refit the timing kit. Is this normal?

If it is, should I then find the mid-point stroke again to engage the camshaft and hopefully the crankshaft is still aligned? Or did I mess something up?

Now that I read it again, I guess I only need to turn the crankshaft two full rotations which is less than the distance of the timing belt.

Thanks for your help,
Conrad

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Hello,
so I when through the whole process and now I just want to make sure that all is good. This is probably a newbie question but I hope the experts can clarify it for me.

After fitting the new belt and removing the timing kit, the instructions are to turn the crankshaft two complete turns and refit the timing kit.

What I did was mark above the camshaft pulley and on the belt a mark and then turned the camshaft until the mark passed twice. The problem is that this did not align the camshaft and crankshaft so that I can refit the timing kit. Is this normal?

If it is, should I then find the mid-point stroke again to engage the camshaft and hopefully the crankshaft is still aligned? Or did I mess something up?

Now that I read it again, I guess I only need to turn the crankshaft two full rotations which is less than the distance of the timing belt.

Thanks for your help,
Conrad

Trying to understand what you did here. So, if you did it "freehand" by which I mean largely by making your own marks on pulleys belt and engine casings, then at the bottom, you made marks on the crankshaft pulley, timing belt and engine casing? then did the same at the top with the camshaft pulley, timing belt and engine casing? Removed the old belt, copied the cam belt marks over to the new belt and then fitted the new belt with all marks lining up? You talk about the marks not lining up after two turns of the engine? This is two revolutions of the crankshaft which equates to one revolution of the camshaft. If everything is fitted correctly, after turning the crankshaft two complete revolutions you should find that the can pully mark should be lining up with the mark you made on the head and the crankshaft will, of course, be lined up with the mark you made on the oil pump casing. Any marks made on the timing belt will NOT line up with the pulleys however.

Alternatively, if you didn't do it "freehand" - So if you used a locking tool kit but didn't slacken the camshaft pulley bolt (which is how I like to do them) I suspect that what you may have done is lock up the crankshaft with the locking tool and camshaft with the locking bar and then tried to fit the new belt with both of these tools still fitted? It's impossible to do this unless you either slacken the camshaft centre bolt on the pulley OR, if not slackening that bolt, remove the cam locking bar and turn the cam pulley clockwise by about half a tooth which will now give enough slack to engage the belt teeth with the cam pulley.. When you then tension the belt tensioner you'll see the cam pulley turn slightly anticlockwise thus letting the slot in the camshaft line up so the locking bar can be inserted - all the time you're doing this the crankshaft will be locked.

No matter which of these methods you used, Marks made on the cam belt will not subsequently align with the pulleys after doing the two revolutions to check the engine is free.

Hope that helps?

 

[YellowPuntoFiat]

Trying to understand what you did here. So, if you did it "freehand" by which I mean largely by making your own marks on pulleys belt and engine casings, then at the bottom, you made marks on the crankshaft pulley, timing belt and engine casing? then did the same at the top with the camshaft pulley, timing belt and engine casing? Removed the old belt, copied the cam belt marks over to the new belt and then fitted the new belt with all marks lining up? You talk about the marks not lining up after two turns of the engine? This is two revolutions of the crankshaft which equates to one revolution of the camshaft. If everything is fitted correctly, after turning the crankshaft two complete revolutions you should find that the can pully mark should be lining up with the mark you made on the head and the crankshaft will, of course, be lined up with the mark you made on the oil pump casing. Any marks made on the timing belt will NOT line up with the pulleys however.

Alternatively, if you didn't do it "freehand" - So if you used a locking tool kit but didn't slacken the camshaft pulley bolt (which is how I like to do them) I suspect that what you may have done is lock up the crankshaft with the locking tool and camshaft with the locking bar and then tried to fit the new belt with both of these tools still fitted? It's impossible to do this unless you either slacken the camshaft centre bolt on the pulley OR, if not slackening that bolt, remove the cam locking bar and turn the cam pulley clockwise by about half a tooth which will now give enough slack to engage the belt teeth with the cam pulley.. When you then tension the belt tensioner you'll see the cam pulley turn slightly anticlockwise thus letting the slot in the camshaft line up so the locking bar can be inserted - all the time you're doing this the crankshaft will be locked.

No matter which of these methods you used, Marks made on the cam belt will not subsequently align with the pulleys after doing the two revolutions to check the engine is free.

Hope that helps?

Hi @Pugglt Auld Jock , thanks for the quick answer.
I didn't do it 'freehand' and did use a loocking tool kit.
I did slacken the camshaft centre bolt on the pulley.

Your final comment is what I was hoping for because that means I can go back and check again.

So tomorrow, I will line everything up and then rotate the crankshaft two revolutions or more and monitor whether everything stays aligned.

I'll keep you posted.
Conrad

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Hi @Pugglt Auld Jock , thanks for the quick answer.
I didn't do it 'freehand' and did use a loocking tool kit.
I did slacken the camshaft centre bolt on the pulley.

Your final comment is what I was hoping for because that means I can go back and check again.

So tomorrow, I will line everything up and then rotate the crankshaft two revolutions or more and monitor whether everything stays aligned.

I'll keep you posted.
Conrad

Good luck

 

[YellowPuntoFiat]

Good luck

Hello again, so I went through turning the engine over and was able to lock the camshaft and crankshaft with the tools again. Does this mean I did the timing belt change correctly?

You will note in the picture that I have the camshaft bolt in but the rods are not 'exactly' the same level. However, this was the case when I started so I presume this is OK?

Final question before I start putting things back, do I need/should I undo and readjust the tensioner pulley? In the manual, it says to do this again after turning the crankshaft to see if everything returns to its correct positions.

Thanks again for your help. Conrad

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Hello again, so I went through turning the engine over and was able to lock the camshaft and crankshaft with the tools again. Does this mean I did the timing belt change correctly?

You will note in the picture that I have the camshaft bolt in but the rods are not 'exactly' the same level. However, this was the case when I started so I presume this is OK?

Final question before I start putting things back, do I need/should I undo and readjust the tensioner pulley? In the manual, it says to do this again after turning the crankshaft to see if everything returns to its correct positions.

Thanks again for your help. Conrad

Conrad, I'll say right away that I've only worked on the single cam engines so not used to this one, but I've read plenty about them so have some knowledge. Have you locked the crankshaft with the "Dumbell" tool? My understanding is that on the single cam engines you lock the crank with the Dumbell tool - which sets the pistons half way up/down the bores - and the cam with the locking bar in the slot at the rear end of the cam. You have to take the cam cover off to do this. On the twin cam the crankshaft is setup with those equal length rods in No 1 and No 2 cylinder spark plug holes thus effectively achieving the same setup. The cam/s are locked with the tool/s which screw in the side of the cam cover so the cam cover doesn't have to be removed. You talk of locking the cam and crankshaft with the tools? I'm confused slightly. Have you locked the crankshaft with the Dumbell tool? If so I'd expect to see both rods at equal height? I don't know if locking the crankshaft with the "Dumbell" tool on the twin cam does result in all pistons being at "half mast" although I would expect it does. Anyway, you could try taking the cam locking tools out and try rocking the crankshaft pulley back and forwards just a little, maybe 5 to 10 degrees either side of where it is right now. and try to stop it when the rods are exactly level. This will mean both pistons are exactly half way up/down the bores. When in that position the cam locking tool/tools should just slip in. If not then some thought is needed. Maybe the cam pulley bolt has been slackened at some time and retightened with the pulley slightly misaligned? God forbid, but maybe the keyway on the crank pulley is partially sheared and the crank pulley has moved just a little on the crankshaft nose? (this is not that common, but is known to happen).

If the cam tools will only fit when the rods are slightly up/down as they look in the picture then the cam pulley is probably not quite in the right position on the camshaft which will mean slackening the cam pulley bolt, lining up the rods and the cam shafts, and retightening the cam pulley bolt. The chances of the crankshaft pulley having moved on the crankshaft are pretty slim. On the other hand the rods don't look very far out? so if you just leave everything as it is just now then I think the engine will run pretty well but not to maximum of either power or fuel consumption. Personally I wouldn't be happy with that and would be looking into the problem more deeply, however, if it runs good enough for you - quite possibly it's been like that for as long as you've owned it so it'll feel "normal" to you? then just live with it. There's going to be quite a lot of fine work to investigate further.

I must say again though that I've never worked on this engine so it's only what I've read and picked up here on the forum that is letting me post the above opinion. I'd be far happier if someone who knows this variant would join in here and give some more knowledgeable comment.

Regarding the tensioner. On all these engines, after doing the crankshaft turning - which is to check the valves and pistons are not touching before you try the starter motor - If the tensioning pointers are still lining up satisfactorily then leave well alone.

Hope that helped and I'll be much happier when someone who knows this engine better than me has had a say here.

 

[YellowPuntoFiat]

Conrad, I'll say right away that I've only worked on the single cam engines so not used to this one, but I've read plenty about them so have some knowledge. Have you locked the crankshaft with the "Dumbell" tool? My understanding is that on the single cam engines you lock the crank with the Dumbell tool - which sets the pistons half way up/down the bores - and the cam with the locking bar in the slot at the rear end of the cam. You have to take the cam cover off to do this. On the twin cam the crankshaft is setup with those equal length rods in No 1 and No 2 cylinder spark plug holes thus effectively achieving the same setup. The cam/s are locked with the tool/s which screw in the side of the cam cover so the cam cover doesn't have to be removed. You talk of locking the cam and crankshaft with the tools? I'm confused slightly. Have you locked the crankshaft with the Dumbell tool? If so I'd expect to see both rods at equal height? I don't know if locking the crankshaft with the "Dumbell" tool on the twin cam does result in all pistons being at "half mast" although I would expect it does. Anyway, you could try taking the cam locking tools out and try rocking the crankshaft pulley back and forwards just a little, maybe 5 to 10 degrees either side of where it is right now. and try to stop it when the rods are exactly level. This will mean both pistons are exactly half way up/down the bores. When in that position the cam locking tool/tools should just slip in. If not then some thought is needed. Maybe the cam pulley bolt has been slackened at some time and retightened with the pulley slightly misaligned? God forbid, but maybe the keyway on the crank pulley is partially sheared and the crank pulley has moved just a little on the crankshaft nose? (this is not that common, but is known to happen).

If the cam tools will only fit when the rods are slightly up/down as they look in the picture then the cam pulley is probably not quite in the right position on the camshaft which will mean slackening the cam pulley bolt, lining up the rods and the cam shafts, and retightening the cam pulley bolt. The chances of the crankshaft pulley having moved on the crankshaft are pretty slim. On the other hand the rods don't look very far out? so if you just leave everything as it is just now then I think the engine will run pretty well but not to maximum of either power or fuel consumption. Personally I wouldn't be happy with that and would be looking into the problem more deeply, however, if it runs good enough for you - quite possibly it's been like that for as long as you've owned it so it'll feel "normal" to you? then just live with it. There's going to be quite a lot of fine work to investigate further.

I must say again though that I've never worked on this engine so it's only what I've read and picked up here on the forum that is letting me post the above opinion. I'd be far happier if someone who knows this variant would join in here and give some more knowledgeable comment.

Regarding the tensioner. On all these engines, after doing the crankshaft turning - which is to check the valves and pistons are not touching before you try the starter motor - If the tensioning pointers are still lining up satisfactorily then leave well alone.

Hope that helped and I'll be much happier when someone who knows this engine better than me has had a say here.

Thanks @Pugglt Auld Jock for the write-up. Yes - the crank is locked with the dumbell tool. But my engine has bore holess (front and back) where I can lock the cams with a key (you can see one in the pic bottom right - black). I don't have to remove the cam cover. I also would have expected the rods to be at equal height as that's what I've seen on YouTube and read in the guides. Mine were slighly off when I locked it (just like in the image) before starting to loosen the timing belt and replacing it.

How would I go about lining up the rods and the camshafts? During the procedure for changing the belt, I do need to loosen the cam pulley bolt to get the new timing belt on. I need to keep the crankshaft locked with the tool right?

If anyone has guides on this to share, it would be greatly appreciated.