Going Electric.. present small car options.. confusing

[AndyRKett]

I’m sort of in a similar position, I’d like to commit to an electric car now but at £40+ k for the sort of car I want I’m not pulling the trigger just yet as I feel in 5 years time that car could be considerably cheaper or there will be other options by then. Something like an iD3 would be perfect for all my needs right now, the only limitation is I have no electricity supply in my garage where the golf is parked and that’s a good distance from the house, there is a drive in front of the house but that’s not actually mine so I can’t always say I can park there, in the next couple of years we plan to move and at which point with our own drive and garage I’ll be looking at electric cars. Also both of our cars at still quite new so no rush to replace with electric.

Interestingly I was driving home from work today and past a convoy of electric cars, I’m
Not sure if they where doing some sort of press thing. There were all the new models including a new VW iD4 which looked both very nice but also didn’t stand out like many electric cars at manufacturers have a thing about making them “futuristic” also in the same convoy was a Hyundai something which was ugly and looked like it had dozens of little lights to make up the headlights all hidden behind the grill. That one didn’t have the green strip on the numberplate so not sure it was an electric one. A side from that the rest of them all looked like nice cars but even the small ones I dread to think what they cost.

Back when I bought my golf new it was a £32k car and I thought that was a lot, you could get a golf R for the same money, so £40k+ for a ID3 just seeems insane to me

 

[s130]

The dynamics of the EV rollout is going to be very interesting.

o Manufacturers currently holding back for better technology and price
o Punters not willing to pay current high prices
o Manufacturers have long development and production setup lead times (plus all the testing and homologation stuff
o Manufacturers will have to soon start pushing harder
o Punters will still be holding off till significant price drops and better charging infrastructure

I think you can see where this is going

o Time for manufacturers will run out quite quickly and punters will still be hesitant
o The crunch time will come and I can see some interesting competition bun fights happening
o Lastly forced demand could outstrip supply which could leave some people in difficulty

Jump too early and it could be expensive and obsolete before crunch time (with no resale/px value).

Jump too late and you may not be able to get the car you want.

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

Jump too early and it could be expensive and obsolete before crunch time (with no resale/px value).

Not really. ICE will be obsolete, not an EV.

An EV will always have a Resale value, the price of EV salvage is interesting in this respect, due to the value of the batteries for repurposing, this is Before looking at the rest of the vehicle parts which’ll still have some value.

 

[AndyRKett]

At the moment things are progressing so rapidly that I can see that a car from a manufacturer sold today could have very different technology from the exact same make and model next year.

I was watching a video earlier for the new Mercedes EQS which is the flag ship electric car from Mercedes and will charge to 190miles range in just 15 minutes. Given a year that could be 300 miles range or 400 in the same time frame.

Also some cars from Tesla will soon have a 600 mile range from a single charge which is well over and above what you would see from cars with the largest petrol or diesel tank.

At the current time most electric cars are expensive and advanced. But in the coming years people will still want a basic car and even the most basic Nissan Leaf from 5-10 years ago is still worth reasonably good money compared to the same size/spec of car but with a petrol engine.

While currently electric cars are very expensive, there is a growing demand for them to be much cheaper because they just don’t cost that much to make now, battery prices have plummeted, but I think companies are trying to recoup there R&D investments. The next two years electric car prices are going to become much more reasonable and we are going to see a lot more variation. Many more suv cars are appearing, the EQS. Is a big executive saloon and I can see more sporty cars smaller cars, the Id van is on its way and also maybe some cabriolets. Once there is a full compliment of cars then adoption will be much quicker.

Costs to the end user are not that bad at the moment because the manufacturers are pushing leasing rather than buying. And making cars like the electric mini and the 500 with much smaller batteries to keep costs down.

 

[DaveMcT]

Making the EV's "futuristic" is plain silly. Nothing does faster than last year's future predictions. But the legacy makers has continued to stay with their discrete box system for electrical. That's considerably more costly and less reliable than a single computer with the oomph to do everything. The ID3 still uses fuses whereas can bus allows overload trips to do the job. The under bonnet is stiffed with stuff. Why? When there's no engine and a much smaller radiator.

 

[nickinom]

Checking out the Nissan Leaf for my wife.

 

[DaveMcT]

The older Nssan Leaf is a good choice only if it's extremely cheap. Though replacement batteries have become more reasonable
https://www.carsuk.net/cost-of-replacing-the-nissan-leafs-batteries-drops-90-in-seven-years/
The battery management is poor so be careful to keep it between 20% and 80% most of the time.

 

[StevenRB45]

The older Nssan Leaf is a good choice only if it's extremely cheap. Though replacement batteries have become more reasonable
https://www.carsuk.net/cost-of-replacing-the-nissan-leafs-batteries-drops-90-in-seven-years/
The battery management is poor so be careful to keep it between 20% and 80% most of the time.

Bit dramatic...

One problem with the Nissan Leaf, it has no active thermal management. So if you are somewhere very hot or cold or fast charge it regularly then the battery suffers.

Otherwise not bad cars at all.

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

Checking out the Nissan Leaf for my wife.

I wouldn’t, far better options out there now. The Leaf is an extremely compromised product, mainly due to no active thermal battery management, causing excessive battery degradation in comparison to most other EVs.

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

Bit dramatic...

One problem with the Nissan Leaf, it has no active thermal management. So if you are somewhere very hot or cold or fast charge it regularly then the battery suffers.

Otherwise not bad cars at all.

Fast charging isn’t the issue (and the Mk1 leaf the 6.6kw fast charger was only ever a factory fit option). It’s successive rapid charging.

You could have been forgiven for saying not bad cars at all 6-7 years ago, but they’ve been proven to be an extremely compromised product on the battery side of things. Nissan dropped a massive clanger in deciding to make the Mk2 leaf without Active Battery Thermal management also IMO :bang:

 

[StevenRB45]

Fast charging isn’t the issue (and the Mk1 leaf the 6.6kw fast charger was only ever a factory fit option). It’s successive rapid charging.

You could have been forgiven for saying not bad cars at all 6-7 years ago, but they’ve been proven to be an extremely compromised product on the battery side of things. Nissan dropped a massive clanger in deciding to make the Mk2 leaf without Active Battery Thermal management also IMO :bang:

In a temperate climate it didn't necessarily need it there's plenty out there gone a long way on the original battery.

They are probably the worst in terms of long term battery longevity but they were also pretty much 1st to market so it's one of those things. Plenty of people have old ones and use them happily for shorter trips.

I agree gen 2 should have had thermal management but there's leaf taxis out there on 200k + miles so it's not necessarily a crap car.

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

In a temperate climate it didn't necessarily need it

It did. Doesn’t matter what the climate is the battery will still heat up under rapid charging.

Active thermal management kicks in on my Soul on nearly every rapid charge, just later on in the charge if it’s cold out, and much sooner during the warmer summer months.

The issue is it’s compounded also. The battery will heat up fairly quickly without active management during a single charge, but will take hours to cool to a reasonable ambient temp due to their mass.

I agree gen 2 should have had thermal management but there's leaf taxis out there on 200k + miles so it's not necessarily a crap car.

Not crap, just heavily compromised.

You’ll find those taxis aren’t kept more than a few years, as that’s when the degradation really kicks in, with age more than mileage.

 

[StevenRB45]

It did. Doesn’t matter what the climate is the battery will still heat up under rapid charging.

Active thermal management kicks in on my Soul on nearly every rapid charge, just later on in the charge if it’s cold out, and much sooner during the warmer summer months.

The issue is it’s compounded also. The battery will heat up fairly quickly without active management during a single charge, but will take hours to cool to a reasonable ambient temp due to their mass.



Not crap, just heavily compromised.

You’ll find those taxis aren’t kept more than a few years, as that’s when the degradation really kicks in, with age more than mileage.

Bloke at my dad's had one 10 years, slow charges it on the driveway overnight. As a result battery is still pretty much fine.

Obviously...if you rapid charge it to 100% every day not ideal you'll cook it. But they are pretty cheap and plentiful so if all you'd need is a local shopper that's just gonna get charged on a wallbox it'll probably be alright.

 

[StevenRB45]

Just to add wouldn't buy a Leaf new but in the UK they are by a wide margin the cheapest EV available used that could be called a proper car.

Start in the region of 5k...for that you could get a Zoe or a Twizy with a battery lease or maybe one of those Citroen Quadracycles imported.

Kia Soul starts at twice that which is a lot of money for a car that does 90-100 miles.

That's kinda the point, Leaf is cheap enough you could probably justify it as second run around and has a decent sized cabin and boot. Most of them are too expensive to buy on that basis.

Obviously we have no idea as to if it's meant to be a first or second car and how it would be charged but discounting it out of hand seems a bit hasty to me.

 

[varesecrazy]

I am still a way off purchasing an EV

Plug in just wont work.. for me at the moment

From what Ive heard.. pay to charge points have just got expensive....??

And the roll out of ULEZ zones in the South of England will be keeping used prices high

Might make the marked flooded with Dpf'd
Dervs though..

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I still haven't got my head round the fact they are far too expensive for a one with reasonable capability. I just don't believe some of the claims which seem to be being made for battery life. Buying a second hand one (all I could afford) could turn out to be a right lottery I think? The "range thing" still bothers me a lot and the lack of certainty about charging when you are far from home "terrifies" me - to say nothing of the complexity of accessing it when neither of us have a "smart" 'phone. Prices seem to be very variable too don't they?

At my age I think I'll be hanging on to my good old polluter until I'm too infirm to drive any more!

 

[StevenRB45]

To say nothing of the complexity of accessing it when neither of us have a "smart" 'phone. Prices seem to be very variable too don't they?

At my age I think I'll be hanging on to my good old polluter until I'm too infirm to drive any more!

It used to be you needed multiple apps to access different charging networks with multiple accounts. I seem to recall they were starting to work towards rationality where you would just park up and use debit card. I would imagine MEP and Didge will know precisely how far they've gone along that road.

I would say you probably may as well hang on to the Ibiza. Especially as you do travel proper distances from time to time..

If I'm honest I'm yet to be convinced as to the merit of replacing a small modern clean car that does few miles and therefore has low CO2 emissions regardless of fuel economy with an electric vehicle that represents significantly more in the way of encapsulated emissions.

My dad and the never ending Focus Saga...theoretically he is a perfect usage case for an electric car. He does 2-3k miles a year, he has drive way to his front door he can certainly afford to buy the car. But..why would he?

2k miles worth of petrol is chicken feed, the electric car won't pay back the emissions in its creation before he's in his 80s. Basically he'd be spending 30k on the thing to watch it fall apart on the drive.

Especially as one of his few little pleasures he allows himself is a trip to Alnmouth beach..60 miles each way no charging at the other end.

Rules out anything vaguely cheap...he likes the E208 but literally no justification for it.

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

I just don't believe some of the claims which seem to be being made for battery life.

So what would make you believe? There is plenty of data and real life examples out there. It just seems from the rest of your post, without trying to sound like a complete arse, that you’re a skeptical and can comprehend / don’t like change, clinging onto only negatives.

Kia Soul starts at twice that which is a lot of money for a car that does 90-100 miles.

And for good reason. Like a lot of things in life you get what you pay for most of the time.

The Soul is, to put it simply, in a different league to the Leaf, on build quality, drive terrain, warranty etc.

No different to how a Merc A class costs more than a Ka or Fiesta.

Like you say though, for those doing only a few k miles a year it’d never make sense to buy an EV, it’d never break even on the additional cost, just like a Diesel wouldn’t over a petrol.

 

[StevenRB45]

And for good reason. Like a lot of things in life you get what you pay for most of the time.

The Soul is, to put it simply, in a different league to the Leaf, on build quality, drive terrain, warranty etc.

No different to how a Merc A class costs more than a Ka or Fiesta.

Think you've missed the point somewhat..

The point was not they are directly comparable and one is half the price. The point was one is cheap enough to be bought as kick about station car or second shopping car.

Whereas the Soul is still at money that most would baulk at the idea of paying for a car that can't do Newcastle to York or to Edinburgh without an enforced break.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

So what would make you believe? There is plenty of data and real life examples out there. It just seems from the rest of your post, without trying to sound like a complete arse, that you’re a skeptical and can comprehend / don’t like change, clinging onto only negatives.

Thanks Most Easterly. So what would make me believe?

Well, I don't think it's that I'm an "unbeliever", rather more of a suspicious sceptic (a bit like me and religion). In fact I rather like the idea of two pedal driving without having an automatic gearbox to go wrong and no engine needing periodic servicing or gearbox to go wrong (although some EVs seem to be "spoiling" this with 2 speed or variable ratio boxes I think? - I may be wrong on that though) I suspect though that that simplicity will be at the price of some extortionately expensive electrical/electronic stuff to take it's place? Perhaps more reliable though? I'm suspicious of batteries generally in that they all seem to be brilliant when relatively new but then seem to settle into a quite mediocre performance where only maybe two thirds, or so, of their new performance is available. This goes on, on a slowly descending scale, until the day is reached when you suddenly realize "I'm not getting much duration out of this at all" and you have to go and buy a new one! If it's the battery in your wrist watch that's not too bad. Laptop? both the laptops I've owned have failed batteries in them and I've not replaced them because of what they cost. In a decent (maybe 4AH power drill) possibly half the price you paid for the drill when new! and it just doesn't make any sense to consider what costs may be involved with a car battery. Unless I'm mistaken all these things use groups of Li-Ion cells to make up their battery packs so it's just a matter of scale, hopefully with better quality control on the automotive stuff - although, I don't know, look at what happened with the aeronautical fires? So, my fears are that if you have to buy a second hand EV - I couldn't justify spending anywhere near what a new one would cost (Oh, hang on, maybe I need to think about the possible psychology behind that?) - You'll be buying into a vehicle with significantly reduced capability compared to it's new spec with every possibility for quite substantial bills to follow? I think it's a case of buy a new one and keep for 3, maybe 4 years after which it's probably not going to be worth an awful lot?

I bought my Ibiza new for a bit over £11,000 I'm not going to buy anything with even remotely near it's capability for that. Now, just over 5 years later, I don't actually know what it's worth but I would guess I'd probably be looking at around half what I paid for it. Is there any prospect of buying a used EV for that sort of money that's going to give anything like the functionality of the Ibiza? I know a lot of people who can't afford to buy new but they can afford a very reasonable IC engined used vehicle with plenty of life left in it. At this time I don't see that translating into an EV purchase?

I'm not "against" EVs but I do think they are far too expensive for what you are buying at this time. Hopefully they will greatly reduce in price when they are the only thing you can buy and/or someone invents some completely new way to make/store electricity. In the meantime, as you say, I think I'm probably as well to try to make the Ibiza last as long as possible.