Technical Gearbox problem?

[joncombe]

I posted here a few weeks back about my Punto having a couple of problems. The first was a starting problem with the imoboliser not always switching off. Weirdly, after a couple of days it stopped happening. The second was a rattling which I thought was the alternator belt. It was, as it started squeaking when first switched on in the morning. The garage I took it to found the problem was the oil pressure switch leaking oil onto the alternator belt, so replaced the oil pressure switch and the alternator belt. They also confirmed the oil level was still between the min and max marks so it hasn't lost too much oil.

However I still have the rattling sound, although the squealing has stopped and it seems to be getting louder. It is worst in 3rd gear but I don't think it's coming from the engine, as if you drop the clutch and rev the engine it sounds fine and there is no rattling. However when the clutch is engaged, the rattling sound is there and as the engine speeds up so does the rattling, and vice-versa. I don't seem to have any issues changing gear, but am worried it might be the gearbox. The car has done just over 89,000 miles. I hear mention on here from time to time of the gearbox oil. I'm not sure how to check the gearbox oil level however - can anyone advise? It's a mk2, 2001(Y), 8v petrol.

 

[rallycinq]

Remove the filler plug in the front face of the box, insert pinky.

You should find golden clean oil.

Anything else, report back.

Cheers

SPD

 

[Scoobysnacks]

Ok, open up the top picture in This guide.

You will notice on the side of the gearbox a plug that has the legend "gearbox oil filler plug" to it.

You need to remove this and look inside.

The fill level is up to the rim of that hole. Basicall get hold of the right oil and fill the box until it starts to overflow from the hole.

Put the plug back in and you're sorted.

Not sure if this is your problem, but it's a sensible place to start looking!

 

[joncombe]

I took my Punto to a garage who have advised me the noise is indeed coming from the bearings in the gearbox and that it would not be reparable. They suggested I could probably get a gearbox from a car breakers for around £100 and it would be 5 hours labour (at £55 per/hour) to fit but also said the clutch should be done at the same time. However the mechanic said he wasn't sure it was worthwhile since there was no gurantee how long a second-hand gearbox would last and it was a lot of money to spend on a 9 year old car with 90,000 miles on the clock.

Having called a few garages I found that my local Mr Clutch has an offer on for Fiat Punto gearboxes for my engine (1.2/8V), which is a new gearbox and clutch, including fitting and VAT for £500 (see http://www.mrclutch.com/latest/0/gearbox-sale---huge-discounts---including-clutch) . I am just after some advice as to whether you think it's worthwhile paying £500 or whether I'm really just throwing money away on it and would be better of scrapping or trading it in. The noise seems to be worse in 2nd and 3rd. I realise it's impossible to give an exact answer, but how long is the gearbox likely to last in it's current condition? Am I looking at a matter of days, or is it likely to last a bit longer than this? I do a little over a 40-mile round trip to work each day but over half the distance is on motorway and dual carriageway which I imagine is easier on the gearbox.

 

[flying clutchman]

The opposite is true if your gearbox bearings are shot. The motorway will kill them rapidly! £300 labour is'nt cheap to fit another gearbox and the clutches are about £50. You should be able to get 2nd hand gearbox,and new clutch fitted for £350 all in. Make sure the input shaft on the gearbox has no play, that's the usual problem. It would be wrong of me to critisize Mr Clutch but the ad does'nt say 'new' gearbox. It's still a reasonable deal though although I personally don't rate their clutches.

 

[DaveMcT]

Look on http://www.shop4parts.co.uk to get an idea of the clutch kit costs.

A used gearbox is about £100, just make sure its from a similar age Punto with a similar engine and check the input shaft does not wobble - an early sign of gearbox demise.

My local garage charges £120 to fit a Punto 1200 clutch so fitting a replacement box and clutch should be much the same.

Is it worth doing?
The old Punto has stopped depreciating a new one will be losing money every day.
What would you be spending per month on a new(er) car? £250, £500. After one or two months the repair costs are covered and you are back to free motoring.
If he car is serviced regularly and otherwise ok, I believe its not throwing good money after bad.

 

[joncombe]

Well I took it to Mr Clutch who fitted a new gearbox and clutch but told me that when they disconnected the battery, which was needed to fit the new clutch and gearbox, it won't start. I've had an occasional issue where the immobilser doesn't switch off, but turning the ignition on and off again a few times clears the code light and it starts.

Mr Clutch claim that when they reconnected the battery it caused this electrical fault and it's not there fault as they had already checked with me it is OK to disconnect the battery (which they did). They showed me the only connections they touched that were all fine.

What happens now is that as soon as you try to start the engine turns over, but never starts and there is a clicking. The clicking turned out to be a red coloured relay on the left hand side of the fuse box (the lowest one that was connected). They tried swapping the other relays around, but the clicking always resumed in the same position, even when the relays had been swapped. Mr Clutch refused to do anything else saying it's an electrical problem, they don't do electrical problems and I will have to take it somewhere else. I called the RAC but they refused to come when I gave them the address (I am a member) claiming it was "already at a place of repair" and said I'd be charged £100 for a tow.

There was another garage further along the road so I asked them if they'd take a look and they said they would but only on their own premesis, not at Mr Clutch. So I paid for the gearbox and clutch replacement since I couldn't move the car off their permisis otherwise.

The other garage helpfully pushed it to their garage and tried to diagnose the fault via their computer. With the relay "chattering" as they called it, the computer would not recognise the car. By disconnecting the relay, turning off the ignition, plugging the relay and computer back in they got a reading that said it was an immobiliser fault and the usual "code" light was still displayed. By clearing the faults on the ECU and trying the usual technique of put the key in a few times until the immobilser goes off they got a reading that it was a fuel pump problem marked permenant. Removing the back seat they found the fuel pump and said they could here it working but the relay was related to the fuel pump and ignition and that clicking was likely still caused by a fault on the fuel pump. I have had to leave it with them as they didn't have any more time to look at it today and I'd otherwise face a £100 charge to tow it somewhere else. The car has already had the ECU replaced as they said that may be a possibility.

Does anyone have any ideas what's gone wrong with it now?

I bought the car a little under 2 years ago with 75,000 miles on the clock. It had full service history, two owners from new and had the cambelt changed. Since then, and 15,000 miles later I've so far had to:-

1. Have the bonnect catch repaired (twice), as it seized and wouldn't open
2. Replace oil sump as it was leaking.
3. Replace oil pressure switch (another oil leak)
4. Replacement clutch and gearbox (see above!)
5. Replace alternator belt
6. New brake pads (possibly disks as well)
7. New rear tyres
8. Back section of exhaust replaced.
9. Windscreen wipers replaced.

I've had it serviced regularly, but it just seems to be one thing after another with this car and now very fed up with it. Have I been unlucky or are Puntos generally unreliable?

 

[bredsticz]

They are reliable if looked after, maybe re-setting the ecu might help? Not too good on electrics myself. No point in giving up now since so much has been spent on it!

I'm sure some ecu experts can help you out though!
good luck with it!

 

[joncombe]

The garage it was pushed to yesterday has replaced the fuel pump but it still has the exact same problem. They had said they don't know what the problem is with it and are not prepared to spend any more time on it. They need it moved by Monday at the latest.

Can anyone advise? The fault now seems to be that when the ignition is turned, before you even try to start the engine, there is a constanct clicking (about once every half a second) from the bottom most red relay on the left side of the fuse box under the bonnet, as you look into the bonnet. If you attempt to start the car it turns over but won't start and they tell me there is no spark. Also sometimes some of the lights stay on that don't usually, e.g. we saw the airbag light come on once and also the engine temperature warning, but if you remove the key and put it back these go away. They found that when it's clicking like this their computer won't even recognise the car. They have to remove and put back the relay, which stops the clicking until you try to start it again. They also checked the fuel cut off had not been activated.

I spoke to trading standards who advised me I can have an independant insprection done who can specify what they think the fault it (at cost, obviously) and whether they believe the fault was caused by work Mr Clutch carried out or whether it was triggered simply be disconnecting and reconnecting the battery. However I have to spend more money getting it towed somewhere and to diagnose the fault. If the independant report concludes the fault was likely caused by Mr Clutch they would be liable to carry out the repair at no cost and pay for the cost of the report. The only other alternative I can think is have it towed home and try to sell it as a non-runner or simply use one of these "cash paid for cars" companies to buy it for £100-£150 or so (there are ads like this in the local paper).

Any advice appreciated.

 

[simondhopkins]

Might be worth checking the switch at the back of the ignition barrel. Could be faulty.

 

[joncombe]

The garage I had the car towed to have now managed to diagnose and fix the problem. It was a wiring problem, the main problem being there was no earth connection to the ECU. This was causing them not to be able to read from the ECU and also causing the starting problems. The car was running fine when I took it to Mr Clutch so I suspect they damaged or disconnected the earth connection and this caused the problem. With the cost of getting the car towed and the problem diagnosed and repaired it came to £175. I hope I will be able to recover that from Mr Clutch. Thanks to the many helpful people on this forum that helped.