Technical Ducato P0401 P0402 P0236 P0238 and limp mode its 2017 Euro 6, EGR changed, What do I check next

[Fredastaire]

@Masztiff , I see you are in Hungary. I have no idea where and do not appreciate the size of your country.. The Fiat main dealership below have experience of our engines, they have an engineer who has successfully replaced EGR coolers now on 4 vehicles in the past 6-8 weeks.
.
Is this workshop within sensible driving distance?


Ring autohaz kft
Fek u 4
Szolnok
Hungary 5000
Http://www.ringautohaz.hu/

 

[kangexpress]

Attached are some graphs from a Ducato with a mil light but no P401, any comments. PS not mine (engine A)
View attachment 406547
View attachment 406548

View attachment 406549

View attachment 406550

Injector readings are high.

DPF differential pressure reading is high (partially blocked, maybe because of bad injectors)

LPEGR system working, not blocked yet, but also not reaching 100C, but only 90C.
(starting to get blocked?)

I would recommend to get cleaned out the DPF by a professional DPF cleaner, with removed DPF and before and after measurements print out of weight and pressures.
(in worst case you will need a new DPF)

And do a injector leak test, how much diesel is returning.
Can be done by a workshop with the right equipment.
DIY solution would be attaching bottles to the return line and compare all injectors return flow quantity over a specified period of time.

And don't ever do a forced regeneration. This will destroy your DPF on the long run.
Liquid DPD cleaner won't help either.

 

[kangexpress]

We did a run yesterday with MES connected and the Wife watching figures.
.
Ive now worked out how the LP EGR and it's integral throttle work.
.
The engine is designed to intake exhaust gas post DPF all of the time your foot is on the accelerator pedal.
Foot off the LP EGR is closed and its butterfly throttle is at 0%.
Foot on pedal, the LP EGR opens in varying mm (4.76 max), plus the butterfly operates showing a higher percentage (9-11% often).
The butterfly will partially close to limit the clean air thus it's a mix of clean / dirty air that enters the turbo.
As the LP EGR begins to operate you can see the LP temperature rise from 60° to a varying 70-80° with highest I saw of 92°.
Climbing uphill the EGR is open max mm and the temperature say 70-80° which must mean my cooler is passing exhaust through it's tea strainer gauze. The harder you put your foot down, the higher the temperature,(92° seen once).
.
Downhill; foot off; the LP EGR closes and the EGR temp drops back to 60°
.
What I don't know is whether my cooler is clear or part blocked.

I could do with one of you repeating my running tests and finding out if you see similar temperature effects compared to foot on pedal

I would like to have an idea if my cooler is part blocked or clear.
.
Additional note - my van did a self regen 17 miles before getting home. At home the DPF was reading 17% blocked. I guess that's pretty clean, (?).

What I've seen in MES is the butterfly throttle readings of main butterfly at the front of the car, next to the HPEGR.

As I've understood there is an other butterfly throttle, build in the LPEGR system.
There are no readings for that second butterfly throttle in MES.

 

[Masztiff]

Hi, sorry to hear you’re another joining this unhappy group.
Sorry if this is a stupid question but isn’t your new engine under Fiat warranty? I’m maintaining pressure on Fiat to help solve what’s clearly a problem of their causing and would be keen to hear what they say about your issues.
My van has been in the workshop nearly 3 months and I haven’t had the use of it for almost 5 months, with only 12k miles (20k km) when the problem occurred I’ve (so far) refused to allow Fiat to turn their backs on it but will soon need to get it back on the road.
Thanks - and good luck.

The engine not under warrant because i buy from another company.Just the build in make the Local Fiat Servica
.

 

[Masztiff]

The free version is very limited, its main use is to prove you have communication with your obd2 device. I bought mine from the UK distributor gendan.usb obdlinkSx I also have a bt vgate dongle. Cheap dongles do not always work with the Fiat extra codes.

Ok.I buy today the full version.I try wit ELM Obd wifi adapter reading the datas.Any info what data log and how long time ? Im not mechanicher just i try log and share here my logs.

 

[Masztiff]

@Masztiff , I see you are in Hungary. I have no idea where and do not appreciate the size of your country.. The Fiat main dealership below have experience of our engines, they have an engineer who has successfully replaced EGR coolers now on 4 vehicles in the past 6-8 weeks.
.
Is this workshop within sensible driving distance?


Ring autohaz kft
Fek u 4
Szolnok
Hungary 5000
Http://www.ringautohaz.hu/

Thank You
I speak with service on next week.Distance from here 500 km.My problem is the Fiat service change many parts without solve my problem and thats too much cost for me.I 5 Months ago buy the engine with 8000 Euro and build in Service yet 2000 Euro..

 

[theoneandonly]

Injector readings are high.

DPF differential pressure reading is high (partially blocked, maybe because of bad injectors)

LPEGR system working, not blocked yet, but also not reaching 100C, but only 90C.
(starting to get blocked?)

I would recommend to get cleaned out the DPF by a professional DPF cleaner, with removed DPF and before and after measurements print out of weight and pressures.
(in worst case you will need a new DPF)

And do a injector leak test, how much diesel is returning.
Can be done by a workshop with the right equipment.
DIY solution would be attaching bottles to the return line and compare all injectors return flow quantity over a specified period of time.

And don't ever do a forced regeneration. This will destroy your DPF on the long run.
Liquid DPD cleaner won't help either.

Thanks
I originally posted this here to get extra insight I had already suggested a injector and dpf clean. The result of which are good with better results an no codes or mil.see this thread

Technical - Ducato DPF errors

I tried to do this but was unsucessful in starting engine pherhaps bottle was too low. I ended up just putting it in the fuel tank.

www.fiatforum.com

 

[theoneandonly]

Ok.I buy today the full version.I try wit ELM Obd wifi adapter reading the datas.Any info what data log and how long time ? Im not mechanicher just i try log and share here my logs.

Ducato - Tutorial to Measure specific Engine PIDs (Parameter ID) and Save data for analysis.

This thread is for the general discussion of the Guide Tutorial to Measure specific Engine PIDs (Parameter ID) and Save data for analysis.. Please add to the discussion here. theoneandonly submitted a new guide: Tutorial to Measure specific Engine PIDs (Parameter ID) and Save data for...

www.fiatforum.com

Duration 10 minutes run after up to temperature.

 

[Masztiff]

Ducato - Tutorial to Measure specific Engine PIDs (Parameter ID) and Save data for analysis.

This thread is for the general discussion of the Guide Tutorial to Measure specific Engine PIDs (Parameter ID) and Save data for analysis.. Please add to the discussion here. theoneandonly submitted a new guide: Tutorial to Measure specific Engine PIDs (Parameter ID) and Save data for...

www.fiatforum.com

Duration 10 minutes run after up to temperature.

Ok.Thank You

 

[Jamesbil]

DPF by a professional DPF cleaner, with removed DPF

Any idea of the workshop time involved in this?

 

[Fredastaire]

The nearest guess starter is that I seem to remember the workshop time to remove and change the cooler is 6 hours by a Fiat workshop. Whilst to the cooler isn't the item to be removed; you have to remove the DPF to get at the cooler and this all starts by undoing the suspension arms and removing the subframe.....
This needs the van up on hydraulic ramp. Bearing in mind the specialist DPF cleaner operation is likely to be elsewhere; your dismantled van would be occupying the ramp until the DPF is returned I'm guessing the overall cost is going to be expensive.

 

[kangexpress]

Any idea of the workshop time involved in this?

Only DPF Removal and installing it back is 4 hours labour.
I paid about 300€.
And 200€ for the cleaning.

Prices can very from workshop to workshop.

Backyard workshop: 250€
FIAT Dealer: 500€

Cleaning: 200-350€


But cleaning alone will not help if the DPF is already destroyed.
LPEGR Cooler will get sooted.
Unfortunately you can't find out if the DPF is broken inside or not.
So it's a 50/50 gamble.

If the DPF is broken from inside and you install the broken and cleaned DPF, than your LPEGR Cooler will get blocked.
That's what happened to one of my vans.

Other 3 times it worked only with cleaning out DPF. (I've got 4 of these vans)

 

[kangexpress]

My problem is solved so far.

I've deleted the HPEGR and LPEGR from the ECU.

Not code yet.
Turbo Boost pressure is working good.
No black smoke.
Engine sound good.

We will see what long term effect this will have to the DPF, Oil consumption and Diesel consumption.

 

[theoneandonly]

Deleted from ecu only ,not removed or blocked off?
Keep an eye on the dpf regen. MOT? Do they monitor ecu programing ? I believe they do in Spain but we are not in Spain!

 

[Masztiff]

@Masztiff , I see you are in Hungary. I have no idea where and do not appreciate the size of your country.. The Fiat main dealership below have experience of our engines, they have an engineer who has successfully replaced EGR coolers now on 4 vehicles in the past 6-8 weeks.
.
Is this workshop within sensible driving distance?


Ring autohaz kft
Fek u 4
Szolnok
Hungary 5000
Http://www.ringautohaz.hu/

Thank You.I speak with engineer yesterday and very very friendly (the local Fiat also) and help for find the solution to my engine

 

[Fredastaire]

@kangexpress how did you delete the EGRs operation? Is there any easy way to do it? For the UK I'm concerned as to whether it would pass the government mot annual test with EGRs not operational.

 

[Masztiff]

@kangexpress how did you delete the EGRs operation? Is there any easy way to do it? For the UK I'm concerned as to whether it would pass the government mot annual test with EGRs not operational.

I follow

 

[Masztiff]

Hello
I get the cable and make some logs.
First log Egr Low Pressure Temp.
- Engine rpm
- turbo intake.temp
- egr low press temp
Egr low press temp not higher then 40 celsius.Its normal ?

 

[Fredastaire]

LP EGR temperature should be circa 60/65 degrees with LP EGR valve closed, valve open it should raise to 90 / 110 degrees. If you have somebody looking at the MES figures when driving, (not looking at a graph - the visual figures is easier to estimate quickly), foot down the valve opens fully, it lets the exhaust gas through and thus goes to the 90 / 100 degrees at uk 65mph, take your foot off and the valve immediate closes then the temperature falls very quick to 65 degrees as your van slows down. Foot down and it opens again very quick.
With MES you can watch the butterfly opening from say 10 up to say 20% as the LP EGR opens to 4.7ish millimeter's following its ecu instructed figure. so by driving at say 65mph and putting foot down or lifting foot off you will be able to see if the LP EGR is actually working or not. If its fully working but the temperature doesnt change then either the temperature probe is broken or the cooler 'tea strainer' gauze is fully blocked.
.
does this help?

 

[Masztiff]

LP EGR temperature should be circa 60/65 degrees with LP EGR valve closed, valve open it should raise to 90 / 110 degrees. If you have somebody looking at the MES figures when driving, (not looking at a graph - the visual figures is easier to estimate quickly), foot down the valve opens fully, it lets the exhaust gas through and thus goes to the 90 / 100 degrees at uk 65mph, take your foot off and the valve immediate closes then the temperature falls very quick to 65 degrees as your van slows down. Foot down and it opens again very quick.
With MES you can watch the butterfly opening from say 10 up to say 20% as the LP EGR opens to 4.7ish millimeter's following its ecu instructed figure. so by driving at say 65mph and putting foot down or lifting foot off you will be able to see if the LP EGR is actually working or not. If its fully working but the temperature doesnt change then either the temperature probe is broken or the cooler 'tea strainer' gauze is fully blocked.
.
does this help?

Thank You the useful information.I make yesterday night many logs so i upload here.When i see the egr valve on screen the open and close work well but the temperature didnt change (see on the picture). MIN 35- MAXIMUM 40 celsius.
What parameters check for.more info in the log graph ? The "cooler tea strainer" is the egr cooler ? And.What the temperature probe ? In My engine 40.000 Km have