Technical Ducato P0401 P0402 P0236 P0238 and limp mode its 2017 Euro 6, EGR changed, What do I check next

[Fredastaire]

There was a post on here yesterday from a guy in Hungary? Wanting to make contact with me. I can't spot it now. Can the person please personal message me with his email address.

 

[Baz in Kent]

It was on Facebook Geoff, Antal Imre.

 

[Fredastaire]

Ive done a run out 9th March and run MES on laptop realtime. Whilst I have no MIL light, no Limp Mode; P0401-61 reappeared in the ECU but only as intermittent code and MIL not set. My DPF is cleaning itself as it should, both EGR's seen to be opening actual following desired, same with manifold pressure and airflows. The snapshot event recorded on MES shows actual air to be 1/4 of required airflow, maybe as you put your foot down something isnt reacting quick enough. I have written detail notes on PDF of yesterday and emailed to @Baz in Kent and @Thomas Lypold

 

[BurntMarmite]

Ive done a run out 9th March and run MES on laptop realtime. Whilst I have no MIL light, no Limp Mode; P0401-61 reappeared in the ECU but only as intermittent code and MIL not set. My DPF is cleaning itself as it should, both EGR's seen to be opening actual following desired, same with manifold pressure and airflows. The snapshot event recorded on MES shows actual air to be 1/4 of required airflow, maybe as you put your foot down something isnt reacting quick enough. I have written detail notes on PDF of yesterday and emailed to @Baz in Kent and @Thomas Lypold

Do you have an intercooler? Have you tried revving engine with pipes off and seeing if input air flow is as good as exit airflow?
Checked the inlet manifold is clear and not sooted up?
If the airflow is just a snapshot, is it causing issues? may be tired turbo/maf sensor? Is MAF reading correctly at ECU with no peaks/spikes? e.g. a nice graph? It should be a fairly nice graph. If its got the odd spike or low reading may be faulty MAF or wiring from MAF back to ECU (in which case easy to check wiring and see which end)
Is turbo position and boost (actual vs requested) looking OK?
Also is MAF OEM or 3rd party? I was watching some tests between OEM branded and 3rd party, and the readings can be significantly off - but they say the fuel trim balances it out so you may never actually know in most circumstances.

Which also suggests the question if other sensors are OEM or replacement?

This thread also suggests a DPFE issue HERE (no idea if your van has one) - if so it may be the replacement EGRs do not replace the DPFE sensor (I'm answering with logic/google - not direct experience)

 

[Fredastaire]

Thanks Mr Marmite, this faults scenario is very specific to 2016/ 2017/ 2018 Ducato which has two EGRs , no adblue. These faults start at mileages as low as 15,000 so worn out of non oe parts doesn't come into it. These problems are known thro Europe and are unsolved by even main Fiat dealers. We need an owner of one of these specific euro 6 variants who has successfully overcome the problem to join in and comment.

 

[BurntMarmite]

Thanks Mr Marmite, this faults scenario is very specific to 2016/ 2017/ 2018 Ducato which has two EGRs , no adblue. These faults start at mileages as low as 15,000 so worn out of non oe parts doesn't come into it. These problems are known thro Europe and are unsolved by even main Fiat dealers. We need an owner of one of these specific euro 6 variants who has successfully overcome the problem to join in and comment.

I am aware of the specific van series, but was simply trying to throw possibilities into the pot as you are struggling. Happy for them to be ignored if not relevent.
I would reiterate posting a clear description to the diagnostic group mentioned above, as these guys are the ones doing day-to-day detailed diagnostics on tough issues like this (rather than garage swapping bits). If you detail the problem well enough and ensure its highlighted as a common issue to similar vans, I'm sure someone would give you good advice.....

 

[Thomas Lypold]

Has anyone else approached Fiat for a response?
Anyone else heard of the Fiat “technical instruction”?
Are all our vans comfortmatic transmission (i know FredAstaire’s is)?
Is there possibly a software issue to do with the emissions scandal affecting VW and Benz?
I suspect any possibility of financial help/goodwill from Fiat will be down to vehicle age/mileage/service history and pressure through social media/press, the more people that get involved the more pressure.

I have contacted Fiat Germany with my problem but have not yet received a reply.
My van also has the comfortmatic transmission.

 

[Fredastaire]

Having been in message conversation with a Fiat main dealer service engineer the first point to mention is that your software needs to be the latest update which is 0032. You also need to have fitted a new turbo solenoid and MAP (only from Fiat - no aftermarket!), At this point your really need a laptop with Multiecuscan and check if your DPF is cycling and not blocked. My DPF cycles about every 450km and clean burns well down in %age. A key point for me is that I now only run with the high spec diesel plus I use the Millers additive also I've learnt to give it a regular 60mph dual carriageway run and powered it up hills to make it work. I've not seen the P0238 fault since early December. I rather think that with Comfortmatic that the engine is being given an easy life and as it's not worked it blocks up I side with carbon. The item causing trouble is probably the LP EGR cooler which has an internal filter. Getting at the filter is a full days work for a service technician working from a ramp as the subframe and DPF needs removal fist. Very expensive.

 

[BurntMarmite]

Just FYI

Just been running with a mate who is a main dealer diagnostician (not fiat) - and I was asking him about any interesting cases. He said he just had one with a fault of random reduced airflow through the LP EGR throwing up codes (didnt recall which)

Clearly different engine, but what he found, is (bear with me if its not 100% accurate) - was on that car, the oil breather is on the same pipe and there is an air "pipe" design where the oil fumes and some water in the air gunk up and make some sludge, and this can move (slow slosh, maybe down to heat/whatever) and cause intermittent airflow blocks to the LP EGR throwing up fault codes.

I'll quote what he said below:-

So it was the low pressure EGR cooler getting filled with oil emulsion and it was this emulsion that was getting into one of the pressure sensor tubes which was causing a incorrect measurement causing a light to come on, the cause of the emulsion was oil and water mixing. There is a junction "box" where the air intake, oil breather and low Egr exhaust gases meet before they go into the turbo inlet port, audi call this junction box a "pulsation damper". It's at this junction box where water (condensation) meets the oil breather and then falls down into the low pressure EGR where the emulsion is then formed. A new modify pulsation damper is needed which traps the water so no mixing can occur (well not down the egr anyway) also we had to remove the whole low pressure egr system to clean all the oil emulsion out.

As I say, may be totally different, but there may be *somewhere* the crank breather is mixing and gunking and causing random blockages

Also this link appeared on my radar - worth a read if nothing else! https://www.fiatforum.com/threads/ducato-2-3-2017-euro6-po401and-po402-resolved.478447/ - sounds similar type of issues and parts failing, and appearing to be all symptoms and failures caused by simple O2 sensor. (I've not seen any "likes" from you on the thread, so you may not have seen it)

Feel free to disregard everything written

 

[theoneandonly]

@Fredastaire
i think i may have confused 2 threads
also have a 2017 Ducato, so far no problems (only 8000 miles)
you mention a specific ECU update (mine was updated 2019 on its first service) is this visible with Multiecuscan? if so how obtained?
You also mention live monitoring what specific parameters (screenshot would be handy)
Thanks
john

 

[Fredastaire]

Hi John, please pm me. I'll be pleased to discuss my use and findings on Multiecuscan. I. The meantime from my experience and the fact that Fiat do not have a known cause / solution I would strongly recommend that you change to using the hight spec ultra type diesel topped with a diesel additive ( I use Millers). Then make sure you regular take the van for a twenty minute dual carriageway run at 2k revs. This is all to attempt a cleanest burn and keep the DPF self regenerating. All to minimised soot build up. This is my personal view. I find it scary that a £7-8 thousand repair job is on the horizon for each of us owners of a Euro 6 twin EGR, further that it would appear that the repair would be needed to be repeated in the near few years again and again. Take a look on ebay at the amount of second hand LP EGR coolers that are being sold just in the UK, I think it clear that we are not alone....

 

[BurntMarmite]

@Fredastaire
i think i may have confused 2 threads
also have a 2017 Ducato, so far no problems (only 8000 miles)
you mention a specific ECU update (mine was updated 2019 on its first service) is this visible with Multiecuscan? if so how obtained?
You also mention live monitoring what specific parameters (screenshot would be handy)
Thanks
john

See you've found the other thread. Interesting isn't it - I'd keep an eye on the O2 sensor readings
Yes, MultiECUScan gives the version number, when you connect to the engine ECU its on the main info page saying software version. (Also further down in the info it gives information on how many times programmed). I checked this prior to my first service, and post service to make sure they did what I asked (they did). My van, different ECU but appears to be same version numbers (though may be different core, who knows) was MY20 out of factory in May/June 2020 and came with v30, and got updated to v32 at service last month. Based on mine being v30 out of factory, not sure a 2019 update would be the latest. Easy to check current version with MES though.

 

[Fredastaire]

Version 32 is the latest, I have that confirmed last week by a Fiat service engineer. @BurntMarmite is your van a 'twin EGR - no Adblue' van? Or something different? Plus I'm intrigued by you comments about seeping sludge, I'm going to look at the venting pipes / oil cap.

 

[BurntMarmite]

Version 32 is the latest, I have that confirmed last week by a Fiat service engineer. @BurntMarmite is your van a 'twin EGR - no Adblue' van? Or something different? Plus I'm intrigued by you comments about seeping sludge, I'm going to look at the venting pipes / oil cap.

No, mine is Euro6D with AdBlue (no idea if single or twin EGR) - but I am saying my ECU is on v32 after the last update last month. May be coincidence or they use the same codebase and just configure it per van. Software number DV10AA30 (on release 30, not checked after update). ECU is Marelli 9DF (MJ9DFHW002)

Bear in mind the seeping sludge comment is totally different make/engine and pipes/locations may be different- but as this issue seems to be challenging I thought I'd pass it on. He said it was moist air + oil fumes =sludge.

The other thread I linked above is an interesting read, and their pattern of failures sounds similar - but on that thread it appears the failures were genuine but not the cause - the cause was the O2 sensor which caused the other parts to fail, but you can't get valid O2 readings until the rest of issues fixed - diagnostic nightmare. But suggests the root cause of the issue. For sure, worth checking out.

 

[Geomore]

Hi, it seems I am having exactly the same issues as described here too. 2018 Euro 6 without adblue. The guy i bought it off replaced the EGR (this is the first I've heard here there may be TWO EGR valves?!) Following a MIL. I commonly (every 200-500 miles) get the p0401 EGR fault and very occasionally the p0236 turbo overboost. Garage just says new EGR and turbo required, so I swiftly ignored them - The turbo seems good as new, and the EGR (well, the one on the front of the engine by the air filter) literary is.

I've been relying on cheap Bluetooth code reader, but just invested in a proper one and MES (sadly the activation code has gone missing otherwise I would have got the scan results tonight). I'll update here once I've done a proper scan.

I assume I have the same engine as here - 130 multijet 2.3 euro 6 no adblue, so where is the second EGR? The back of the engine looks like a chemistry project, i guess it's somewhere there?!

My next steps were going to be look at replacing sensors such as MAP/MAF but it sounds like you have already tried that with no success?

 

[Fredastaire]

Hi, it seems I am having exactly the same issues as described here too. 2018 Euro 6 without adblue. The guy i bought it off replaced the EGR (this is the first I've heard here there may be TWO EGR valves?!) Following a MIL. I commonly (every 200-500 miles) get the p0401 EGR fault and very occasionally the p0236 turbo overboost. Garage just says new EGR and turbo required, so I swiftly ignored them - The turbo seems good as new, and the EGR (well, the one on the front of the engine by the air filter) literary is.

I've been relying on cheap Bluetooth code reader, but just invested in a proper one and MES (sadly the activation code has gone missing otherwise I would have got the scan results tonight). I'll update here once I've done a proper scan.

I assume I have the same engine as here - 130 multijet 2.3 euro 6 no adblue, so where is the second EGR? The back of the engine looks like a chemistry project, i guess it's somewhere there?!

My next steps were going to be look at replacing sensors such as MAP/MAF but it sounds like you have already tried that with no success?

@Geomore Can I suggest that you private message me with your email address and I will get in touch. I have changed certain components and have not had a mil light or limp mode since early December and can give you full detail. MES does record an intermittent fault but not sufficient to activate the MIL light. Fiat are well aware of these problems and are hiding away from it, another member has an ongoing claim now in its fourth week with no answer. The P0401 fault code is misleading when it says HP EGR blocked, its something else!!! 1/ you need latest Fiat software (v32) for the engine, update for Comfortmatic if you have it. 2/. I have changed the MAP and turbo solenoid AND I now only use premium diesel topped with Millers Diesel additive, (all to keep the injectors clean). 3/. I also changed the HP EGR because the fault code said so; there was nothing wrong with the original! so a waste of timeand money. There is a LP EGR and LP EGR cooler at the back of the engine, Fiat allow 6 hours using a ramp as its a subframe off job before undoing the power steering and removing the DPF. only then can you reach the LP EGR. Most likely the cooler is blocked with soot, I think mine must be however as i'm surviving with only an intermittent hidden code i'm current leaving well alone. I have my documented notes that I can send you so you can see what MES can show on your current problems. Members on here have these problems at 15k miles, mine started at 24k

 

[theoneandonly]

@Geomore
welcome, hope you can get better guidence . Certainly are people here with simular problems.

 

[Baz in Kent]

@Geomore as stated by @Fredastaire there are others, like me, with similar problems, mine started at 12.7k miles and I’m currently looking at how to mitigate a bill for £7.5k.
I expect @Fredastaire will give you the relevant Fiat service bulletin but if not let me know and I’ll provide it, unfortunately it refers to costly repairs depending on the extent of the damage. As mentioned above it seems the crucial factor is the software update(s).

 

[theoneandonly]

Anybody got an English version of this, or url.

 

[theoneandonly]

A slow google translate gets this
just incase you wondered how it "works"