Technical Ducato P0401 P0402 P0236 P0238 and limp mode its 2017 Euro 6, EGR changed, What do I check next

[Anthony489]

Will this do ?

 

[Thomas Lypold]

Hello...... update from my side.

Response from Fiat Germany: no excessive failures P0236, P0238, P0401 known.
I was asked to have further tests done at the local Fiat dealer (under the guidance of Fiat Service Germany).

In February and March I had several trips ( about 1000km) with frequent MIL, always about 10km after start.
The MIL always comes when the temperature is above 5°C!

In the last five days, I've driven 1400km without MIL, always in temperatures below 4°C!

Misterious !!!

Next week I have a service appointment at Fiat, update to follow.

 

[Geomore]

Hi all,

Having spoken to Fredestaire, here's my take on things (please take with a pinch of salt, I've only recently joined this conversation, and have a terrible memory. Please correct as necessary).

1. My engine is a Fiat/Iveco F1AGL411D, aka Ducato 2017/2018 130BHP MultiJet 2.3L, and I gather this is the engine this threat relates to. I think, but not sure, other engine codes: -A, -B, -C simply relate to the 120, 150, 180BHP variants which are otherwise identical
2. This Engine has 2 EGR valves, Low Pressure (LP), and High Pressure (HP). This is required in order to meet the lower NOx requirements of EURO 6, without having to use selective catalyst reduction (SCR) (aka Ad-blue). It seems very few Euro 6 Road Engines took this decision, and interestingly, from 2019, Fiat changed to a different engine that uses the more popular SCR/Ad-blue design. I understand the F1AGL411D was inly used in the Fiat Ducato, and not the Peugeot/Renault that would normally share engines
3. When searching for "EGR Valves" for this engine, you will will almost always come across the HP EGR, which is located at the front of the engine. Many people (including myself) were not aware of the second LP EGR. The HP EGR It is located towards the front of the engine, under the bonnet catch. A large plastic servomotor protrudes upwards from it. The general view is that this HP EGR is unlikely to be the cause of this fault, especially with low mileage engines. Mine had been replaced just before I bought the vehicle in a failed attempt to cure the P0401 fault (I now learn)
4. I believe the attached photo shows the LP EGR. Google searches suggest it may be P/N 5802313486, which often comes up as "Throttle body". Some time ago I read that Fiat "Throttle Body" was renowned to fail, but I think this refers to the actual air intake throttle body located next to the dipstick tube. Confusing! In contrast to the conventional HP EGR found on almost all diesels, this EGR takes exhaust gases after both the turbo and the Cat/DPF, and feeds it back into the air intake before the turbo. This air will be hot and need cooling, so it passes via the LP EGR cooler (also pictured). This is shown in Anthony489's diagram.
5. Accessing the LP EGR and cooler in the Fiat Ducato is challenging. Both are located at between the engine and bulkhead. Because the engine is slanted rearwards, top access is not possible, it must be accessed from below. This requires removal of the subframe, and also it appears: RH driveshaft, steering assembly, DPF, Alternator Wiring Loom and possibly turbocharger. This is almost certainly a garage job, someone mentioned 6 hours labour to remove/reinstall? It seems like dropping the engine would be easier.
6. It appears no-one has yet had the LP EGR/Cooler cleaned or replaced. This means it could be the miracle fix, but this is by no means certain. The theory is that these items could be blocked resulting in insufficient air being recirculated. It's a big job just to give it a try! Fredestaire believes that a blocked LP EGR Cooler could be the direct cause of the fault codes. We won't know until someone tries!
7. A Firmware update has been issued by Fiat, which claims to address these nuisance faults. This does not appear to resolve the issue. My guess is that this update actually addresses an issue which causes blockage of something over time, and won't fix the nuisance fault issue if it is already present. Thoughts?
8. Failure of Injectors and DPF have been reported. I'm not sure if this is related, but it seems the health of both can easily be checked using MultiECUScan software (€50) and a ~£20 USB OBD dongle. These issues are very expensive to rectify, so this investment is quite sensible.
   1. (From Fiat Service Bulletin) Check Injectors with engine running: Ensure Maximum fuel correction per cylinder does not exceed +/- 2.00 mm3/H. Ensure all four values add up to zero. For reverence, mine were approx 0.2, 0.0, 0.1, -0.3 at idle and 0.2, 0.2, 0.0, -.4 at mid revs.
   2. Check the DPF figures are good - Normal clogging (<100%), last regen was not too long ago (mine was 180km, I'm guessing up to 1000km is OK). The service bulletin also mentions detaching the exhaust from the DPF (2 bolts) and wiping inside with a rag. Deep black soot deposits are bad. (It's on my list to try).
   3. The fact that both these checks are on the bulletin suggest to me that the old firmware could result in damage to the DPF and injectors. Or, it could be that unrelated failure of these could trigger the fault codes.
9. At time of writing Fredestaire has had the most success so far, performing Firmware Update, MAP sensor, and Turbo Electro Relay/Solenoid, using Injector cleaner additive, and premium diesel. Following this, The P0401 has only ever been triggered as a stored code/"soft fault". This means it doesn't trigger a dashboard warning, just in the DTC code memory. This means it is not triggering regularly enough to give the dashboard warning.
10. The P0401 code appears to be a relatively generic DTC code (universal across all vehicles). It seems to be triggered as a result of one of:
    1. LP EGR Actual position significantly differs from Desired Position (not in mine or Fredestaire's case) Note that both EGRs are servomotor actuated, and therefore know exactly where they are, and would know if they are jammed - a common fault with high mileage diesels.
    2. HP EGR Actual position significantly differs from Desired Position (not in mine or Fredestaire's case)
    3. Actual Intake Air Quantity (Volume) significantly differs from Desired Intake Air Quantity (Both in mine and Fredestaire's case, the Actual Quantity was ~25% the desired value.
11. From this I'm assuming one of:
    1. The sensor measuring the intake quantity is misreading - How is this calculated? MAF/MAP or a combination?
    2. There is an intermittent fault with the reading - this could be ruled out by witnessing the fault while recording the readings
    3. The Firmware (old and new) is expecting an unrealistic air intake quantity. Maybe it's not accounting for a big enough delay in the control loop in some situations, such as a slow turbo reaction time. Tenuous idea?
    4. Something is blocked causing a lack of airflow. Most likely, but very labour intensive to rule out/fix, so we want to be 100% sure it is this.
12. I and some others also get occasional P0236/P0238 Turbo Boost Pressure too high. Traditionally, this is caused by a faulty wastegate valve (or possible variable vanes stuck on a variable geometry turbo - not sure if the Ducato has this). Unlikely on a low mileage engine, I suspect this is more likely to be a failure of the MAP sensor or the Turbo Electro Relay/Solenoid, hence replacing them sensible. Cheap and easy compared to fixing the turbo!

I'm hoping this is remotely useful to someone!

 

[theoneandonly]

I did a number of test runs with my Ducato in order to get a base point for a known good engine. No codes 8000miles. The data was collected on a specific test route that i can repeat, about a mile between 2 round abouts. How useful is it should i add a 20mile test route mostly dual caridgeway. Looking at the egr position results the actuals follow targets reasonably well but have some under and overshoots at sharp increase decrease in revs.
Are these all acceptable and could they be used for comparisson with other engine that have had problems eg the 401 code. The graphs are shown on thread. I started another thread so more people may see it and it may be useful for other problems. eg The DPF sensor is one that has been asked for in another forum.

Multiecuscan results 2.3 130 euro6 2017 | FIAT Ducato

I did a number of test runs with my Ducato in order to get a base point for a known good engine. No codes 8000miles. The data was collected on a specific test route that i can repeat, about a mile between 2 round abouts. How useful is it should i add a 20mile test route moastly dual...

www.fiatforum.com

What other methods do people use.

 

[theoneandonly]

1. I and some others also get occasional P0236/P0238 Turbo Boost Pressure too high. Traditionally, this is caused by a faulty wastegate valve (or possible variable vanes stuck on a variable geometry turbo - not sure if the Ducato has this). Unlikely on a low mileage engine, I suspect this is more likely to be a failure of the MAP sensor or the Turbo Electro Relay/Solenoid, hence replacing them sensible. Cheap and easy compared to fixing the turbo!

the 130 has a fixed vane turbo the 150 and 180 a variable geometry turbo

 

[Fredastaire]

Just a quick non organised reply as ive only a few minutes.
.
The 130 turbo is variable something as it has the vacuum actuator controlled from the turbo electro solenoid; is this not variable geometry?
.
Just back from a full day out Staffordshire and Derbyshire, super sprightly, no MIL light no limp, 29mpg which is good for that hilly terrain .
.
I havnt looked with MES yet for sleeping code 0401
.
I would confirm that I havnt seen and MIL now since early December when I fitted new MAP and new Turbo Solenoid, I now only fill up with premium diesel dosed with Millers diesel max, I dare not try ordinary diesel again.
.
The LP EGR Cooler has a 'tea strainer' on its outlet side to the turbo. (I have a new cooler to fit if I need to). Paul of PC vehicle movements says that he cleaned his removed cooler to hold as a spare, think he used ally wheel cleaner acid and jetwashed it. Its the tea strainer that blocks up and casn only be reached with a 6 hour professional mechanic using ramp etc
.
A contact engineer in Europe who works for a Fiat dealer has had thee clients vans with our problems, he has changed the cooler on one of them two weeks back, the customer has not had problems since. There are two members on here who know who this Fiat guy is, please do not post his name as i'm not sure that he would want it known
.
Probably missed something else to comment on....

 

[theoneandonly]

Fiat Ducato 2.3L Multijet 130PS - Alientech News & Blog

Today we will analyze for you the engine and central unit of one of the most widespread LCVs of the World: Fiat’s Ducato. You probably already know it as Citroen Jumper, Citroen Relay, Peugeot Boxer, Peugeot Manager and RAM ProMaster. Don’t worry! As for commercial vehicles, it is quite common...

www.alientech-news.com

The Iveco/Sofim 2.3L Turbodiesel engine​

The 2287cc engine mounted on Fiat Ducato and other FCA Group’s vehicles is very reliable. Also thanks to the Magneti Marelli electronics that controls it, it can comply with the current Euro 6 standard. In the three power versions available, the only difference characterizing the engine mechanics is the turbocharger. Fixed geometry for the F1AE3481G and F1AE3481D versions or variable geometry for the F1AE3481E version. This is why this last version presents the highest power level with 148HP (109 kW, 146bhp).

glad to hear the mil light is having a rest.

 

[Fredastaire]

@Thomas Lypold , reference temperature, the MAP sensor measures both the inlet pressure and the temperature, so if this unit is causing pressure errors, maybe its giving temperature errors also. My MAP sensor as fitted from new by Fiat was a Bosch part number that has never been allocated to Ducato!! I fitted the correct part number replacement unit, I checked with Bosch UK by telephoning them. Maybe yours is also a wrong part number. My van has been owned from brand new and serviced only by myself so as nobody else has touched my engine I know the factory fitted the 'wrong' part.

 

[theoneandonly]

Reference to post from @Hugsy

eml light nightmares | FIAT Ducato

Hi, I had to join this forum to get some help and advice. I bought a new ducato dropside in 2018 130hp non adblue engine. I believe it's the worst commercial vehicle I have ever owned and Fiat must realise it as they changed the engine to adblue very quickly. I do a lot of miles about 3k a month...

www.fiatforum.com

hugsys position:
Hi, I had to join this forum to get some help and advice. I bought a new ducato dropside in 2018 130hp non adblue engine. I believe it's the worst commercial vehicle I have ever owned and Fiat must realise it as they changed the engine to adblue very quickly. I do a lot of miles about 3k a month and when I reached 95k the eml came on so I took it into the main dealer I bought it from and they have tried 4 times over the last year to resolve the issue without success. They have replaced
L.P. Egr valve
DPF
4 injectors
H.P. Egr valve
Fiat dealer plugged it in last week when eml was off would you believe and showed stored faults
p1248-92 downstream sensor
p2244-92 upstream sensor
p0402-61 air tracking control
p0401-61 egr h.p.
the last item was replaced only 3 months ago
the vehicle scan report shows ecm software version is 0032
I don't think they have changed a map sensor

reply from @Fredastaire

1/ Might I suggest you read and join in on the post which I put up last year p...... What do I check next as it got more people in it.
2/ it's a must that you buy Multiecuscan from Gendan with their two leads.
3/. Then visually check all the intercooler and pipes for spits, leaks and holes plus check the top vacuum hoses.
4/. Fit a brand new MAP from Bosch and new turbo solenoid, these two will cost you circa £90.
5/. Then go for run with live MES monitoring airflows and temperatures and study the injectors and dpf for regens.
6/. At the moment mine is surviving with only p401 hidden code, no Mil, no limp. I suspect my LP EGR cooler may be blocked though.
.
Please can one of our other members copy your original post para and my reply here on to my main thread. I've only a phone at the moment and can't copy/ paste/ link easily.

 

[theoneandonly]

To anyone with P401 issues on a twin EGR model I am trying to analize data from live runs of Multiscan monitoring certain parameters. The pricise parameters are controlled by templates 6 to 9 in the mes template.ini file and data is saved as a .csv file. If anyone is prepared to do this please reply either by open forum or PM (conversation) and i will give precise info and advice. The more info i have the more likely we can come up with a test method to properly diagnose and confirm repair.

 

[BobSlo]

Hi all,
I have the same problem with my Mobilvetta Fiat Ducato 150 HP 2017 with 65000 km on the clock. P0401 appeared for the first time on the trip to Dolomiti on the highway (heavy rain). Engine did not enter limp home mode. That time just this code appeared. I reset it and it did not reapear for aprox 300 km. I took the RV to Fiat dealer they found the code in the memory and cleared it. Next time, again after heavy rain the problem reapered but this time P0401, P0402 and P0238 engine went to limp home mode. After switching engine off and on it went out of leap home mode, MIL remained on. Reset with obd tester and MIL was OFF. I fited new BOSCH MAF, it did not help. Again FIAT service, they instaled new software, entered new MAF into computer, cleaned electric motor of HP EGR. After short time MIL again. Repair shop contacted FIAT technical help. I am going to the shop tommorow again. FIAT sugested to do some testing ……. In 2017 EGR cooler was replaced in waranty due crack on the one of the pipes. On freeze frame data we found out that the problem always occures with the engine around 1900 RPM with no demand for power, expected calculated pressure of the turbo around 2,7 bar and messured value arround 1,5. We do not know why the expected calculated value is so high.
I will post findings of tommorow inwestigation as soon as i get results. They say that they will have RV there for a few days…….

 

[theoneandonly]

Again FIAT service, they instaled new software, entered new MAF into computer, cleaned electric motor of HP EGR. After short time MIL again.

Thanks for the info, i expect your software is now at version 32. The MAP sensor has it been replaced at any time?
I look forward to what happens next

@Fredastaire

 

[Fredastaire]

What I find so puzzling is that I've got closer than anybody else to an acceptable state of running yet nobody follows my route of component changes, not even the dealer engineers, (except one who I won't name here). 1/. The P0401 leads you up the garden path to a wrong decision; 99.9% it's not the HP EGR!!!!!!! It's telling you that there is a pressure / air volume problem. The other codes tell you it's pressure. I'm reading this on my phone so I can't refer back without loosing this typing. Can you read my main post that's active. ( One and only can you help with the link please). I had the same codes last December and changed the MAP and turbo solenoid, (easy diy).I havnt had a mil light or limp mode since. I do have a recurrent soft code 401 in the ecu memory. I'm 99.9% certain that my lpcooler has a blocked tea strainer, (that's my interpretation of the fine gauze). As the cost of changing the cooler is phenomenal, and as it's likely to reblock again in another 15 - 20 k miles I'm currently accepting the condition. It's my opinion that Fiat have a worldwide problem with these twin EGR engines that they know about and are hiding away from as they can get customers to pay thousands to their dealers in unspecified guesswork repairs. I think it's a good income. Paul on here did 280 k miles with his car recovery flatbed and says the turbo solenoids had to be replaced every 30k miles.

 

[Fredastaire]

Beware that we have another member on here whose van has now been at his dealer for 5 weeks. The extensive expensive repair bill includes new injectors, new DPF, new cooler, new LP EGR, he has no written fault diagnosis and is currently in correspondence with them about who pays. Yet there is no mention of MAP or Solenoid.........

 

[theoneandonly]

I need to see as much multiecuscan data as is possible from different sources (same twin egr )engines .so i can analyze and maybe uunderstand the engine better. Before and after any mods replacement.
Other engines with data before and after a known fix would also be useful, eg map sensor, turbo actuator.
I dont want to just wait for it to happen to me.

 

[Thomas Lypold]

@Thomas Lypold , reference temperature, the MAP sensor measures both the inlet pressure and the temperature, so if this unit is causing pressure errors, maybe its giving temperature errors also. My MAP sensor as fitted from new by Fiat was a Bosch part number that has never been allocated to Ducato!! I fitted the correct part number replacement unit, I checked with Bosch UK by telephoning them. Maybe yours is also a wrong part number. My van has been owned from brand new and serviced only by myself so as nobody else has touched my engine I know the factory fitted the 'wrong' part.

Thanks for the tip, attached is a photo of my sensor that was originally installed, is that the same as yours?
Tomorrow I have my appointment with my Fiat dealer to do further tests
.... update to follow.

 

[Fredastaire]

Thanks for the tip, attached is a photo of my sensor that was originally installed, is that the same as yours?
Tomorrow I have my appointment with my Fiat dealer to do further tests
.... update to follow.

Yes that is the same part number that was fitted to mine. Bosch UK, in my telephone call to them said that it had never been allocated to Ducato. I gave them my engine number which they checked and told me that the actual Bosch number should be 0281 002 845, this is the part number that I fitted in December. The Turbo Boost Pressure Control Solenoid Valve I fitted is Fiat part number 0055269482 – 001, inside the Fiat box is the OE spec valve part number 55269482 and 7.03003.09 which is Pierburg price £ 45.87 from Coastal Motorhomes UK, of the hundreds of valves on Ebay Pierburg, none are visibly the same.
Thomas, perhaps it may be wise to beware your dealers estimate , may I suggest that you go mentally prepared that you will bring your van home before deciding to accept their repair estimate. Our other member on here has an estimate of circa £7500 for which he hasnt agreed to go ahead, they have his van plus for other reasons it is not now road legal so he cannot take it home. You may be better to consider repair options at home when nobody has pressure on you also you are in control because your van is at home with you.
.
Have you already replaced the MAP? if yes what part number?

 

[BobSlo]

At FIAT service i proposed to change MAP but their statement was that till now they did not have a single problem with that sensor. Where is the exact MAP position in our engines. I would like to see which BOSCH number is stamped on it, so i can order it myself.
I will ask tomorow for price estimate for replacement of LP EGR cooler. When they replaced it in recal it took FIAT 45 days for delivery.

 

[Fredastaire]

@BobSlo certainly I in retrospect made an error in changing two components at the same time so I cannot guarantee that the MAP was giving wrong output readings, it was however totally caked up in gunge and having changed the two parts dramatically changed the engine performance. The turbo solenoids are said to become problematic and need replacement at 30 k miles, MAP sensors have many YouTube entries for cleaning and replacing irrespective of car or van type of all manufacturers
Whilst the MAP is easily changed DIY, it's hidden under the throttle body so even with a boroscope camera you couldn't see the part number. In any case you need to order the correct part number. There are two of us with apparently wrong part numbers originally fitted.

 

[BobSlo]

I got back the motorhome today. The results so far are. At FIAT they took off the DPF and it is dirty on both sides, so DPF is not doing the job. Also the exhaust pipe is not clean (i did not notice that before). It is a pitty that they did not check it with camera to see what is inside. they checked the intercooler at the entry from turbine and the pipes and intercooler are dirty as well. They checked the throttle body and MAP and both are clean. They replaced MAP with the new one.

Verdict was to replace.

LPEGR
HPEGR
DPF
INTERCOOLER

When i came home i took off the intercooler and exit side was clean as well as the pipe going from it to the throttle body. I cleaned the intercooler and it is clean now as new. There is a huge possibility that the DPF is cracked.