Technical Death Rattle!!!!!!

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Technical Death Rattle!!!!!!

Ian, I think your plan to, ahem, confront? your engine guy will get the answer. At my local workshop there are lots of really good information posters which would probably point straight at the cause of that. In the circumstances, with your engine not even run-in I think it's likely that the bore is a bit tight to the piston. If so, if a piston ring or rings was insufficiently gapped. When the engine got hot you might have broken rings or partial piston seizure.
 
I would partially agree with Peter in that the score marks look like a broken piston ring--they don't look or feel, (when I was at your 'umble abode earlier today) bad enough to be a 'picked-up' piston. Also the noise you described, (like a stick being run across railings) is not normally the noise associated with a picked-up piston. The fact that the engine was not running hot, and that you can hardly feel the marks would also point to a broken ring. Bore-wise, I reckon that the marks can be honed out. If new piston rings are required, I can supply a couple of companies who can supply piston rings---you would probably get them a darn site faster (and cheaper0 than going back to Italy for them.
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Ian Bleeding Knuckles, I obviously wasn't aware that Tom has actually physically seen the damage; so coupled with the fact that I didn't properly read that you were looking for an "engine guru", which I most definitely am not, :D I would go with his recommendations.

Either I have been lucky (because I'm not the world's most precision engine builder) or because I have stuck with standard components, fortunately, so far, I have had no personal experience of that level of internal engine trouble.

When you are back on the road I would definitely stick to the Fiat running-in regime which indicates that you were probably pushing your little baby a bit hard at 60mph within the first 300 km. So don't let on to the machinist that you were doing that. ;););)

Good luck and good on you for getting stuck in so quickly.(y)
 
Certainly looks like a piston ring problem to me. As suggested gapping could be a problem if not addressed on assembly but as many will know from experience breaking a ring can so easily happen. Unlucky there mate but at least you caught it early before a total mash up. You should have enough evidence to nail the problem. I do have a new set of 82mms barrels here if needed :)
 
Have been in contact with the shop that did the rebore and found that my man is away over the weekend racing at Silverstone, so I've got to wait until Monday to chat! :(:( I have been having a think about my running-in procedure and can only say that it's been driven around country lanes and A & B roads too without a max rev thrashing, in fact the only time I made it to 100Kph (4700rpm)was for a short stretch on the way home(y)(y) I know that the subject of 'Breaking in' an engine is Very contentious, but what I have found is that the accepted method is to run it 'Hard' over the rev range without long constant revs (motorway) and don't thrash it up to the rev limit - only 75% or so. I cannot even find agreement on the distance to run before driving 'normally'(n)(n) It seems that everyone has their own method:confused::confused: In fact piston Aero engines get a good thrash during the run-in to fully bed the rings - you pays your money and makes your choice.(y)(y)

Ian.
 
I think that avoid "labouring" the engine is good advice.
Other than that - 75% revs for 500 miles - oil change - torque head and tappets......then drive it like you stole it!
 
I think that avoid "labouring" the engine is good advice.
Other than that - 75% revs for 500 miles - oil change - torque head and tappets......then drive it like you stole it!

Definately agree with this. A very wise in the way of engines mate told me that for start up the Pistons should be lubricated with mineral oil and that the majority of the ring bedding in takes place in the first minute or so of running.
 
I know that there are many differing views on the "whys and wherefores?" of running-in an engine, but I followed Fiat's advice which will be plastered on the windscreen on many restored vehicles. In my case the original sticker suggests a specific top speed in each gear for the first 450 miles and a slightly increased one for the subsequent 450 miles. Maybe they didn't know anything about engines? ;) but those speeds in 4th gear are 38mph and 47mph.
 
Gents, Thanks for the replies all appreciated. If there is one thing I know I'm sure gonna be there when the guy who did the job removes that piston from the cylinder - then we really will see the proof of the pudding(y)(y)(y)
I'll get back with the results and pics.

Ian.
 
For the bores to become scored, either a piston ring has broken, the piston skirt has cracked/broken .. or part of the valve/seat has come adrift and found its way into the combustion chamber.

If the engine has recently been rebored there's always the possibility that something was dropped/left in the bore .. however, as the car obviously ran ok for a while it tends to suggest that the company who did the rebore may have done something wrong .. like broken a ring when refitting the pistons. Or there's been a bit of 'swarf' left behind.

Some of these engineering companies can be 'fast and furious' - in and out as quick as they can.

Back in the 70s I had a Triumph Toledo 1300cc rebored and wondered why after refitting the engine that it took Monday to Friday to reach 60mph. They'd fitted the wrong pistons, which were one eighth of an inch too short ...

In the very early eighties the gearbox failed on my Austin Maxi, so I took to a reputable gearbox specialist who fitted a reconditioned box. When I collected the car I didn't actually get home.. as the gearbox failed. They'd left swarf and other lumps of metal in the reconditioned box...

On the face of it, the company who rebored the engine for you may have made a mistake... Though proving it is another matter.

If you're pissed off, there's a lot of people understand how you feel ..
 
Update! My engine man :worship::worship: has seen the pic's and commented that the number two cylinder (forward) seem's to be running Lean??
(n)(n) Which i think is a bit strange as the Weber 30 DGF carb I'm using just dumps the mixture into the manifold there is no individual sharing :confused::confused:
Why would one cylinder run Lean:confused::confused:Anyway I am providing him with the cylinders, pistons and cylinder head too, to help diagnose it all. I'll get back with the diagnosis(y)

Ian.
 
Greetings, back from the engine man with info(y)(y)
See the attached pics the first (1) shows the head before repair and cleaning with equal colour from each cylinder. (2) shows the head now with unequal colour - the lighter side is number two (front) (3) pistons with corresponding colour difference the lighter item is number two. (4&5) number two piston showing markings from what my man says is a partial seizure:eek::eek:
It seems (prior to more diagnosis) that the engine is running leaner on the number two cylinder and thus suffering overheating. There is a small amount of evidence of detonation too. All of the rings are ok. The only other work that has been performed is the porting and polish to the inlet manifold and the carb service:confused::confused:
All in all the possibilities are these - the airflow in the engine has changed (an air leak?), Its running leaner than before, over advance of timing, bad fuel, detonation. :mad::mad::mad: I don't know for sure, but the kit I got for the carb service may have been suspect with jets marked up as incorrect, as a matter of course I will replace all the jets removed. My man has said that due to the fuel mixture helping to cool the engine, any removal of this cooling effect (shut off)
could cause a rapid rise in internal temperatures and give the seizure:mad::mad
: so as everything can be saved(y) it's going to run rich until further notice.
Ian.
 
pic's -
 

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Great pics and information.
The death rattle could have been pre-ignition .
Good job investigating this and so saving everything before it was destroyed.
Your distributor could be worn or faultly causing over advanced ignition timing on one cylinder. Suggest checking timing on both cylinders using timing light.
Good luck
Jack
 
Considering that the distributor sends spark to both plugs each time - i doubt the dizzy itself is at fault. Change dizzy cap, both spark plugs and leads in case number two circuit is breaking down.
 
Hi Ian,

Sorry to hear about your latest tribulations in the quest for more power!

I've been giving this latest engine problem some thought and have re-read all posts and carefully perused all the photos. Old guys like me have to peruse things....takes a while to focus...

Anyway, I find the location of the scuff/pick-up marks on the new piston to be rather suspicious. These marks are very close to where the cylinder studs are situated... You also mentioned that the barrels seemed to be a bit tight on the studs. To me it looks like the studs are pushing against the side of the stud holes nearest to the cylinder bore. Usually there is clearance around the studs and the barrel spigot is accurately located on the crankcase or stepped studs or dowels are used at the lower mating face of the barrel.

Many years ago, I dabbled a bit with overboring air-cooled motorcycle cylinders. (beyond what was commonplace and defiantly (I was young then!) against the advice of experts!).
Some strange things could and did happen. The cylinder needed to be able to expand without constraint. The cylinder didn't necessarily expand equally in all directions, i.e. the cylinder bore might not be circular when hot (or very hot!). Trimming cylinder fins (e.g.to make a different cylinder fit an engine)
could and did result in distortion of the bore. Cylinder bores don't expand equally from top to bottom. But hey! pistons are not truly circular nor the same diameter from top to bottom. If the cylinder wall is reduced too much in thickness, it can distort unpredictably in service. Cylinders get hot when being bored, so immediate measurements can be unreliable.

Enough rambling, I hear you say!

If this was my engine:-

I would open out the stud holes in the barrels from the top down maybe 3/4 way.

Investigate (if possible) if these pistons have expansion-control (Invar?) metal struts built in. Iirc, original Fiat pistons did, after-market pistons might not have. If not I would increase piston to bore clearance. My rule-of-thumb on a slightly modified engine is that the piston, without rings fitted, should easily drop under it's own weight when placed into the cylinder but not rattle.

However, if piston to bore clearance was insufficient I'd expect you would have experienced trouble much sooner and the damage would be similar to what you showed in your post #1 i.e. centrally on the thrust face of the piston skirt below the rings.

I'd measure the pistons to check they haven't distorted (unlikely given how small the tear marks are), clean off the scuff marks, check the rings aren't pinched in their grooves or otherwise damaged. In an ideal (i.e. money-no-object!!) world, new rings would, of course, be fitted but I don't live in such a world! I wouldn't even bother removing the rings to check them, too much chance of breaking them.. Just check they rotate freely and side clearance in correct, if you have a thin-enough feeler gauge. (You could use a strip of aluminium foil).

As regards one cylinder seeming to have been running a bit weaker than the other?
Maybe it was because one cylinder was running hotter due to increased friction. Are both spark plugs the same heat range, same brand, same tightness (approximately, a loose plug can alter it's heat range!). Any mods to the air cooling system, missing baffles? restricted air intake? air outlet?. Any restriction in one exhaust pipe?
As another poster has suggested, check the ignition timing is correct on both cylinders.
Imho, you might have gone a little high with your compression ratio.

Just remember that this engine ran well when first assembled, I'm sure you'll get it back to running well before long with minimal expense.

P.S. There's a reason I keep a roll of emery tape, needle files and a tin of Brasso beside my workbench.... (hint! hint!).

Al.
 
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Some brilliant thinking (as annoyingly always ?) there from Al. It got me thinking, do the pistons have the proper offset that I believe the gudgeon-pin location should have? If so, unlikely you got it wrong, but are they fitted with the correct side facing the camshaft?
 
Considering that the distributor sends spark to both plugs each time - i doubt the dizzy itself is at fault. Change dizzy cap, both spark plugs and leads in case number two circuit is breaking down.
I didn't think it was a wasted spark system .
If it has rotor arm and points then it's possible for the cam in distributor that opens the points to wear unevenly causing a difference in timing between the cylinders.
 
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Thanks for the replies all - appreciated. Al, :)worship::worship:) I'll run through your points one by one if I may as we agree on much. I have been lying abed running the facts through the old grey cells and have a few points of note.(y) I noticed the proximity of the marks to stud location and did wonder, but, have to discount this as I had the stud holes enlarged very slightly and I have a 1mm steel support plate on the spigot to help with location, strengthen the joint and give a better piston to barrel height and C/R. Not sure about the Piston 'expansion-control' all I know is they were very expensive and direct from a top Italian maker!! My engine man is an old hand and was happy with the piston/bore clearance after rebore, he will be checking the pistons/rings and bores anyway.(y) I'm only happy that the damn thing didn't completely seize and grenade on me,:eek::eek: at least the situation is recoverable(y)(y) He was happy with the plugs and the colour of the same, he considers them correct for the application.
NOW :worship::worship: much respect Al, as you have touched on something that I am wondering about and that is the cooling system. On my engine the fan housing is from a 500 modified to fit onto a Panda 30 head on the left side (viewed from the rear) using an alloy fan. The engine fins are all in place, BUT the side plates (front and back) are missing and I wonder if this is causing excessive heat:confused::confused: A standard Panda 30 thermostat housing is fitted to the head on the right. I do have a modified 500 thermostat housing that will be fitted post rebuild - this does have the side plates.(y)(y) Peter, the pistons are in the correct way. I'll leave it all with my man and get back with info when available:cool::cool::cool:

Ian.
 
Haven't reed all the previous post's yet but i have to agree, better change spark plugs, leads, distributor cap with new. Also measure compression when you assembly back the engine.
 
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