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I can only assume you think C4 is short hand for Corsa 4 otherwise you can't read.
I seem to remember some time back @vexorg saying he got his DS for stupidly cheap money (correct me if I’m wrong)

I am a snob I’m not buying a corsa for any money and and I’ve owned endless puntos. Sorry Vauxhall but you’re boring and while they are a little better now they’ve not won me over yet.

I think the point @StevenRB45 is trying to make is that all these cars are running on the same platforms the citron C4 was the same basic car as the corsa but they binned the C4 and then moved a bit more up market in that segment with the DS4 (again correct me if I’m wrong)

From my perspective I think there is some confusion between DS4 and C4 both Citroen you’re both sort of having a different conversation
 
It does have a cross purposes feel..

Re-reading it...I did compare the price of the DS4 to a Corsa in 2017 but otherwise no not really comparable cars as I was under the impression Vexorg thought the C4 should be worth more than the Corsa when historically expensive Citroëns are worthless.

To be fair this is the power of Stellantis...what the hell is going on? 🤣

There used to be a C4 and a DS4...both on the same platform, the C4 was a dreadfully dreary thing and sold badly. The DS4 was the same car in a hat with a nicer interior, slightly firmer suspension and some better engine options.

They killed the the original old style hatch C4 one, decided DS only made more expensive SUV and big saloons for China and moved it upmarket. They then decided to make a new C4...in the same hatchback/coupe/SUV mould as DS4...which is why I'd say it was comparable.

Having typed this out...I can see actually it's pretty damn confusing..before you get to both the new C4 and Corsa being the same car underneath except for some hydraulic suspension.

Anywho...😂
 
A car from the 70s polluted the environment more when off, sitting in a car park, from escaping fuel vapour from its fuel tank, than a modern car running! Crazy progress. In case nobody believes me, source: Lance A. Ealey and Glenn A. Mercer, 'Tomorrow's cars, today's engines' (2002).

And yet, we have people gluing themselves to the road, proclaiming otherwise... But in their case, all those running engines idling for no reason, is most certainly causing more (unnecessary) pollution.
The Swissers have required cars to turned off when stationary for years. All common sense really. I let the stop start do its thing on the Panda, it may help a tiny bit.
 
I seem to remember some time back @vexorg saying he got his DS for stupidly cheap money (correct me if I’m wrong)

I am a snob I’m not buying a corsa for any money and and I’ve owned endless puntos. Sorry Vauxhall but you’re boring and while they are a little better now they’ve not won me over yet.

I think the point @StevenRB45 is trying to make is that all these cars are running on the same platforms the citron C4 was the same basic car as the corsa but they binned the C4 and then moved a bit more up market in that segment with the DS4 (again correct me if I’m wrong)

From my perspective I think there is some confusion between DS4 and C4 both Citroen you’re both sort of having a different conversation
I have driven many miles in Corsas and they are really OK, but I agree with you entirely. Boring boring boring. Well made competent but just not very exciting. I had and Astra 1.8 SRi for a while until its brakes let us both down that was a nice drive. The suspension arms had spots of weld 4 per bush, when it was examined after the crash 10 of the 16 welds had been broken for some time which was a bit alarming.
 
I have driven many miles in Corsas and they are really OK, but I agree with you entirely. Boring boring boring. Well made competent but just not very exciting. I had and Astra 1.8 SRi for a while until its brakes let us both down that was a nice drive. The suspension arms had spots of weld 4 per bush, when it was examined after the crash 10 of the 16 welds had been broken for some time which was a bit alarming.
My Ex had a Corsa B at one point, a 1994 L reg, 1.4 with huge (for the time) 15inch 5 spoke alloys. Which to be fair went like a rat up a drain pipe.

But the head gasket was showing signs of going and so that car had to go, the replacement for that car was my first 60s Punto 3 door that was only 3-4 years old at that time and was only £600, this was about 2002/3 so that's where I started with Puntos, (previous to the Corsa we had a Cinquecento)

In the early 2000s I worked in the motor trade and drove way too many Corsas, all new or nearly new cars, but they were terrible, then when I later had experience of the Corsa D, they were even worse. From the Mid 2000s, till very recently Vauxhall went through their worst period in history of just making horrible horrible cars. Just very very Dull
 
In the early 2000s I worked in the motor trade and drove way too many Corsas, all new or nearly new cars, but they were terrible, then when I later had experience of the Corsa D, they were even worse.
My daughter had a corsa C 1.2, it was a surprisingly nice little car to drive. We test drove quite a few cars when looking for a runabout as her first car, and out of them all the corsa felt most like a real car to me. It felt quite solidly made, drove like a proper car. Out of the others, the punto felt the worst in terms of cheap tinny small car.

When looking to change it we tried a corsa D 1.2, and upset the seller when driving by asking what's wrong with the engine. The C felt like a rocket compared to the D. Then found out the D is 300kg heavier.
 
My daughter had a corsa C 1.2, it was a surprisingly nice little car to drive. We test drove quite a few cars when looking for a runabout as her first car, and out of them all the corsa felt most like a real car to me. It felt quite solidly made, drove like a proper car. Out of the others, the punto felt the worst in terms of cheap tinny small car.

When looking to change it we tried a corsa D 1.2, and upset the seller when driving by asking what's wrong with the engine. The C felt like a rocket compared to the D. Then found out the D is 300kg heavier.
I worked in the trade at that time when the Mk2 Punto and the Corsa C were both New models.

The Vauxhall was probably the better built car, the Vauxhalls of that era were better nailed together and would use a plastic trim where someone like fiat would have a bit of fabric or bare painted metal. so in that respect I have to agree with you.

However driving both cars regularly at that time. The Punto was just way more fun to drive. The "cheapness" of the Punto made it lighter and quicker off the mark. The gears were lower in 1st 2nd and 3rd on the Punto meaning it would hurtle up to 30mph which made it feel really sporty, and again at that time the mass of colour choices and funky interior colours made them stand out a lot more than the rather drab colour options of the Corsa.

The last really fun car I drove that Vauxhall made was the Omega, we had a lot of them around that time as well, and with the rear wheel drive and 3 liter V6 engines they where an absolute hoot, especially in the wet. The main problem being they were not meant to be fun and were sold to fat company executives and old people so again had a bit of an image problem.

The D just isn't worth mentioning in my view. Had one as a rental car for a few weeks in 2010 when someone swiped my now wife's Punto HGT. the car just lacked any charisma and the controls were really cheap and nasty, I think I managed to break the center dial for the heating. They changed it for a Vauxhall insignia, which was was not a good car in any measurable way. I dubbed it the Vauxhall Colossus as the center tunnel was stupidly high the windows were very high and sitting in it made you feel like you were sitting in a car about 50% bigger than any other car.
 
Is the gripe why can't I buy 2 year old cars for 4 grand? As otherwise I'm not sure where it's going..
I mean, in 2015 and the years around it, you could get a brand spanking new Panda Pop for £6,995 - no haggling needed. Alright, no button on the key... but brand new car lacking a lot of the ****-take cost saving that the C1 / Vag trio had at the time (ugly exposed metal in the interior and lack of parcel shelf..). Pretty sure the i10 around then had remote locking on a separate key fob... so I'm not sure if the Pop manual locks are that bad lol Anyway, I know that's now 8 years away.. but still, 18k for a base Corsa. I remember the Vauxhall configurator in 2014 time. I'm sure they started at under 10k for the base model.. the 'Sting' was it? With the go fast stripes. Seems like a bargain looking back.

The Swissers have required cars to turned off when stationary for years. All common sense really. I let the stop start do its thing on the Panda, it may help a tiny bit.
Start Stop is good in congested urban areas. I think it's a misconception that is saves fuel, I think it's more about helping air quality in these urban environments. Fair enough at that, my city in NI can smell pretty fume-y at rush hour. Can't imagine what real cities like London / Birmingham / Manchester would be like. I think it definitely serves a valid purpose.

I turn it off on my car. My short 8 mile commute, it'll kick in at the first junction on the bottom of the street. Despite a cold diesel engine - somehow it deems it good. I get 31mpg if I let Start / Stop run and interrupt the warm up process. With it deactivated, I get around 40mpg as it's had time to warm up. Unfortunately, the longer I let my car struggle to warm up, I think it has some kind of heater that directly burns more fuel to heat it up faster than diesel usually does.. so it drinks more fuel to run that part to heat it up.. so long story short, start stop OFF gets me better mpg. That's just how I use it but. My DS3 it barely ever worked when the car even was heated up somehow!

My daughter had a corsa C 1.2, it was a surprisingly nice little car to drive. We test drove quite a few cars when looking for a runabout as her first car, and out of them all the corsa felt most like a real car to me. It felt quite solidly made, drove like a proper car. Out of the others, the punto felt the worst in terms of cheap tinny small car.

When looking to change it we tried a corsa D 1.2, and upset the seller when driving by asking what's wrong with the engine. The C felt like a rocket compared to the D. Then found out the D is 300kg heavier.
Drove my mums 2004 Corsa C, a blue 'Active' limited one in 2014 when I passed my test. God, back then I thought that was great!!! From 2009 until 2015 though as it turned out, she hadn't had the oil changed even once... head gasket went, after one day I was driving it, smoke started coming out from under the bonnet.. The uncle who has since taught me all I know about cars sorted it, but it went another 6 months or so before the temperature gauge started going crazy and it started overheating.. local mechanic declared it as not worth fixing. Shame though, as bodywork wise that car was pristine. It was a 1.0 3 cylinder, just around 99k miles. And it sounded like a diesel because of the chain rattle. I naively rang Vauxhall at the time, asked how much it would cost to replace the chain. They said something along the lines of 'not worth doing, 100k is about the lifespan of those engines'. Remember being so devastated hahaha But he was probably right.

My cousin got a Corsa D (2006, Design I think) as his first car from one of his relatives. It drove really well, smooth and comfortable for its class. But it had a (1.2 or 1.4) petrol engine. I thought it was luxury at the time compared to my Panda. The seat fabric was like a part leather / fabric design, much thicker and better wearing than my Panda. Auto lights, auto wipers. The carpet was thicker. Although it had just as basic a radio / less practical dash. He has a 2018 420d now M-Sport. Don't think he looks back, but I also don't think he realises that his Corsa wasn't the worst car to have as his first. Decent spec / condition when he got it.

Around 2019 that car s*** itself on multiple occasions, my uncle stripped it down and redid all the internals as good as possible. Was fascinating to see the engine be stripped down and built back up. It still had issues but managed to last until mid 2021 before they became a big problem again. Had to be filled with water every time. We always say we wonder how those engines would do, if they had the oil changed like clockwork... would they last? Or are they just genuinely a shoddy design from GM that regardless of care, will just fail around 100k?

The road used to be packed with Corsa C's. They've dropped down a good bit in recent years around here. Corsa D's still everywhere. I was surprised how slow his 1.2 was compared to my mum's 1.0 C. Reading above, 300kg.. big difference! :-O Then again, my 1.2 Panda (current shape) was a LOT slower than my 169 05 model. Heavier too I suppose, and more tech on the engine for eco reasons I think.

Attached some photos of the classic 'mayo' under the top cover.. brings back memories of driving my mums! haha
 

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Re: Current Corsa.. my friend with the i30N was given one as an insurance courtesy car in 2021. Was keen to see inside the PSA Corsa. Its sad how it went from GM (a big player)'s top contender to maintain a UK best seller status - against the likes of the 208 and Polo, to being a deliberately cheap option specifically for those who can't afford or don't want a 208.. purposely designed to sit below it. It was really obvious with the rough, cheap textured plastic. The touch screen looked okay but I'm sure half of the buttons it had said 'feature not installed' when you tried to use it.

That's what the French bought Vauxhall / Opel for I suppose, it's their Skoda / Seat end of the brand catalogue. It looks like Fiat will be their Seat, the one with the slightly more jazzy designs - but maybe still lower grade plastics / fittings that look nice at best.. like Seat. Then Vauxhall being the Skoda with the downright most basic, maybe even openly dull to look at by design and crap to feel.. Peugeot / Citroen being the core VW... and DS / Alfa to be their answer to Audi / ... nah.. nah , I can't even write answer to Porsche. Maybe, just MAYBE they'll make DS's as nice as (certainly more stylish) than Audi's... but I doubt they'll ever come out with a true, sporty spirited engine.. when was the last PSA car to have one? The 208 GTI / DS3 hot hatches were cool like, but they didn't set the world on fire. I suppose they're going to inherit Alfa / Maserati who know a thing or two about that though :) Hopefully those engineers still have a job.. or maybe they'll be replaced by digital sound engineers with the sole task of producing .mp3 sound tracks for the new, all-Electric Abarth models ..... I weep for the future .. :-/
 
I mean, in 2015 and the years around it, you could get a brand spanking new Panda Pop for £6,995 - no haggling needed. Alright, no button on the key... but brand new car lacking a lot of the ****-take cost saving that the C1 / Vag trio had at the time (ugly exposed metal in the interior and lack of parcel shelf..). Pretty sure the i10 around then had remote locking on a separate key fob... so I'm not sure if the Pop manual locks are that bad lol Anyway, I know that's now 8 years away.. but still, 18k for a base Corsa. I remember the Vauxhall configurator in 2014 time. I'm sure they started at under 10k for the base model.. the 'Sting' was it? With the go fast stripes. Seems like a bargain looking back.


Start Stop is good in congested urban areas. I think it's a misconception that is saves fuel, I think it's more about helping air quality in these urban environments. Fair enough at that, my city in NI can smell pretty fume-y at rush hour. Can't imagine what real cities like London / Birmingham / Manchester would be like. I think it definitely serves a valid purpose.

I turn it off on my car. My short 8 mile commute, it'll kick in at the first junction on the bottom of the street. Despite a cold diesel engine - somehow it deems it good. I get 31mpg if I let Start / Stop run and interrupt the warm up process. With it deactivated, I get around 40mpg as it's had time to warm up. Unfortunately, the longer I let my car struggle to warm up, I think it has some kind of heater that directly burns more fuel to heat it up faster than diesel usually does.. so it drinks more fuel to run that part to heat it up.. so long story short, start stop OFF gets me better mpg. That's just how I use it but. My DS3 it barely ever worked when the car even was heated up somehow!


Drove my mums 2004 Corsa C, a blue 'Active' limited one in 2014 when I passed my test. God, back then I thought that was great!!! From 2009 until 2015 though as it turned out, she hadn't had the oil changed even once... head gasket went, after one day I was driving it, smoke started coming out from under the bonnet.. The uncle who has since taught me all I know about cars sorted it, but it went another 6 months or so before the temperature gauge started going crazy and it started overheating.. local mechanic declared it as not worth fixing. Shame though, as bodywork wise that car was pristine. It was a 1.0 3 cylinder, just around 99k miles. And it sounded like a diesel because of the chain rattle. I naively rang Vauxhall at the time, asked how much it would cost to replace the chain. They said something along the lines of 'not worth doing, 100k is about the lifespan of those engines'. Remember being so devastated hahaha But he was probably right.

My cousin got a Corsa D (2006, Design I think) as his first car from one of his relatives. It drove really well, smooth and comfortable for its class. But it had a (1.2 or 1.4) petrol engine. I thought it was luxury at the time compared to my Panda. The seat fabric was like a part leather / fabric design, much thicker and better wearing than my Panda. Auto lights, auto wipers. The carpet was thicker. Although it had just as basic a radio / less practical dash. He has a 2018 420d now M-Sport. Don't think he looks back, but I also don't think he realises that his Corsa wasn't the worst car to have as his first. Decent spec / condition when he got it.

Around 2019 that car s*** itself on multiple occasions, my uncle stripped it down and redid all the internals as good as possible. Was fascinating to see the engine be stripped down and built back up. It still had issues but managed to last until mid 2021 before they became a big problem again. Had to be filled with water every time. We always say we wonder how those engines would do, if they had the oil changed like clockwork... would they last? Or are they just genuinely a shoddy design from GM that regardless of care, will just fail around 100k?

The road used to be packed with Corsa C's. They've dropped down a good bit in recent years around here. Corsa D's still everywhere. I was surprised how slow his 1.2 was compared to my mum's 1.0 C. Reading above, 300kg.. big difference! :-O Then again, my 1.2 Panda (current shape) was a LOT slower than my 169 05 model. Heavier too I suppose, and more tech on the engine for eco reasons I think.

Attached some photos of the classic 'mayo' under the top cover.. brings back memories of driving my mums! haha
Once the car is moving put it in a high gear and give the loud pedal a good shove and hold it on boost for as long as the road allows. One good boosted surge will normally bring the temperature up in one go. Turbo gets hot very quickly. Worked with all my diesels and still does with the TA but to a lesser extent.

I think you are right that stopping and starting with a cold engine is less economical but stop start shouldnt work until the engine is warm, Diesels definitely use a shovel of fuel to get started. I spent a while experimenting with turning of the engine when stationary and found with a 2.2 diesel it only imporved mpg when the stops were more than about half a minute, otherwise it used more. Done right could see 6mpg gain, but what a paoin doing it. I think petrol has less of a penalty for stopo starting. I would love to see the physics. Most likley its a sales gimmick but will help pollution in CIties I accept.

On the Corsa I agree it had virtues and was a decent drive, and Vauxhalls build quality used to be stonking. I just couldnt buy one its the intangible thing that makes Fiats a joy that they lack. My Bravo was fully stacked with kit and stil, had a spark of Brio. Fiats. have Brio but can be a COLLOSAL PITA. My experience is however that properly looked after they are as good inreliability and quality terms as anything else, at least at anything like the price. Im now approaching 500K oin Fiats and breakdowns have been so few I cannot remmeber any there have been. My company non stellantis Vauxhalls gave superb service and considering they were mostly hammered as hard as is possible astonishingly robust for well over 100K. Im sure the Corsa would be the same. Vauhalls buit for a hard life I suppose. My Astra CDI had done 75K when it was bequested to me, and had never been serviced. It was never as good after I had it done!

Your right about 'stuff' on the engine. If it did anything other than doge EU tests it wouldnt be so bad that its the only thing making cars unreliable these days!
 
Once the car is moving put it in a high gear and give the loud pedal a good shove and hold it on boost for as long as the road allows. One good boosted surge will normally bring the temperature up in one go. Turbo gets hot very quickly. Worked with all my diesels and still does with the TA but to a lesser extent.

I managed to find the repair manual for my Avensis, which details the exact list of criteria for the stop start to kick in - and for it to be disabled due to one condition not being met. It’s probably near identical on any car that has it, interesting description to read I thought; http://zatonevkredit.ru/repair_manuals/raw_content/_ucV5mQB5quhSDuVJv-V

I think you are right that stopping and starting with a cold engine is less economical but stop start shouldnt work until the engine is warm, Diesels definitely use a shovel of fuel to get started. I spent a while experimenting with turning of the engine when stationary and found with a 2.2 diesel it only imporved mpg when the stops were more than about half a minute, otherwise it used more. Done right could see 6mpg gain, but what a paoin doing it. I think petrol has less of a penalty for stopo starting. I would love to see the physics. Most likley its a sales gimmick but will help pollution in CIties I accept.
Glad I’m not the only one seeing a difference! Been experimenting with it these days. One day I’m in an hour earlier when the roads are clearer and I see a big improvement that day too where I can stay consistently at 60mph in the first stretch versus queues of traffic meaning that 6 miles in the engine temperature is still not even half way. This is probably how most diesels end up choking to death from the insides out!
On the Corsa I agree it had virtues and was a decent drive, and Vauxhalls build quality used to be stonking. I just couldnt buy one its the intangible thing that makes Fiats a joy that they lack. My Bravo was fully stacked with kit and stil, had a spark of Brio. Fiats. have Brio but can be a COLLOSAL PITA. My experience is however that properly looked after they are as good inreliability and quality terms as anything else, at least at anything like the price. Im now approaching 500K oin Fiats and breakdowns have been so few I cannot remmeber any there have been. My company non stellantis Vauxhalls gave superb service and considering they were mostly hammered as hard as is possible astonishingly robust for well over 100K. Im sure the Corsa would be the same. Vauhalls buit for a hard life I suppose. My Astra CDI had done 75K when it was bequested to me, and had never been serviced. It was never as good after I had it done!

Your right about 'stuff' on the engine. If it did anything other than doge EU tests it wouldnt be so bad that its the only thing making cars unreliable these days!
I liked GM Vauxhall tbh. I nearly bought a decent spec 2017 Corsa in 2019 but my friend spotted it looked like it was in an accident as the wing mirror panels had some bad repairs.. and the dealer bragged about it having bigger, nicer alloys from another Vauxhall model. It did look nice but it was certainly a size too big for the car and probably detrimental to it. All signs of abuse. Avoided it and got my 17 Panda the month after. God I miss that little thing. If I could trade my Avensis for it back I would!
 
I managed to find the repair manual for my Avensis, which details the exact list of criteria for the stop start to kick in - and for it to be disabled due to one condition not being met. It’s probably near identical on any car that has it, interesting description to read I thought; http://zatonevkredit.ru/repair_manuals/raw_content/_ucV5mQB5quhSDuVJv-V


Glad I’m not the only one seeing a difference! Been experimenting with it these days. One day I’m in an hour earlier when the roads are clearer and I see a big improvement that day too where I can stay consistently at 60mph in the first stretch versus queues of traffic meaning that 6 miles in the engine temperature is still not even half way. This is probably how most diesels end up choking to death from the insides out!

I liked GM Vauxhall tbh. I nearly bought a decent spec 2017 Corsa in 2019 but my friend spotted it looked like it was in an accident as the wing mirror panels had some bad repairs.. and the dealer bragged about it having bigger, nicer alloys from another Vauxhall model. It did look nice but it was certainly a size too big for the car and probably detrimental to it. All signs of abuse. Avoided it and got my 17 Panda the month after. God I miss that little thing. If I could trade my Avensis for it back I would!
Sure the list for the IX30 and i30 Hyundais was even longer Had both as company cars. Their system was just a complete pain.
 
The juke diesel stop-start didn't stop the engine unless it was fully warm in the winter, nissan/renault must have figured out it wasn't a good idea.
 
The juke diesel stop-start didn't stop the engine unless it was fully warm in the winter, nissan/renault must have figured out it wasn't a good idea.
The Avensis does it far too much, more than I'd expect before heating up. The DS3 did it rarely, but never did it when I would have expected it to (like at traffic light stops).

Sounds like Nissan / Renault worked it out right!
 
The Fiestas that I had as AA school cars, were always quite enthusiastic with the stop/start. Engine would be barely warming up, and the system would cut the engine, which would be a problem in winter, when you are wanting some heat inside.
Conversely, there appeared to be no connection between the stop/start system and the engine management. With a turbo, it is a good idea to let the turbo spin down before stopping the engine, but coming to a stop from a fast run, with the turbo still spinning, it would stop. Not good for turbo longevity.
Having said that, the Fabia does not wait either, so there's room for improvement for all.

The Fabia battery is nearly 9 years old, and the car is used usually two days a week, Wed/Thu, then left alone. Consequently, the stop/start rarely works on the first journey on a Wednesday, but will usually work for the return journey. It is stubborn. If at first start it detects a low battery state, it will disable the stop/start for the whole journey. An engine off and restart, will cause it to reassess. So a journey pause will often get it working again.

The Doblo, having been used sparingly all its life, has a battery that has spent most of its life below full charge. It also appears to be a standard battery, surprising for a stop/start engine. I used it Monday, previous run was a fortnight before. The stop/start rarely works, and if it does, restarts after about 30 seconds. As a wheelchair van, it will have been used rarely and for short journeys. Nearly 7 years old, 14.5k miles.
 
.The stop/start rarely works, and if it does, restarts after about 30 seconds. L
My record is just over 7 minutes the day I took the below. One of the few minor enjoyments after the major non-enjoyable spending that came in the form of a new battery in January..
 

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Most cars seem to have a maximum period that the engine will remain off. Teaching learners, when we stop, if the engine stops, many learners will not remember to turn it off. A few minutes later, it restarts, and frightens them. From the passenger seat, it never gets old.
 
Most cars seem to have a maximum period that the engine will remain off. Teaching learners, when we stop, if the engine stops, many learners will not remember to turn it off. A few minutes later, it restarts, and frightens them. From the passenger seat, it never gets old.
The joys of the job I suppose! Have you got the extra pedals fitted? I presume so, that must make the sense of safety a bit higher when you're in with nervous or forgetful learners?

Something similar now that I'm used to the wonderful world of 'EPBs', is when I move my granny's Panda or my mums Mazda 2 for washing, I often take out the key (or with the Mazda, push the button) and expect it to be auto applied like the Avensis... until I feel the dread of the roll and the gentle bump off the curb.. Always draws the adrenaline.. Modern technology sure does breed laziness in my case!

I'm still impressed with how cool the Panda's little compact handbrake is and devastated that they started putting the regular ones back in to cut costs recently.. Who was the designer kidding in one of the interviews when he said 'we intentionally made it that way to double as an armrest'... I'm all for defending the Panda - but that one's too much for me haha
 
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