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I still take issue at £46k for a standard peugeot car
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My main point was ‘they need to get so good that, just like ICE (which theoretically also loses some range in the cold) - that we can use them why might having extra anxiety over having the heater on’ etc.
More range would always be welcome, but only when it’s (real world) comparable and versatile as most existing ICE cars can the everyday buyer safely forget all those current EV drawbacks as it were.
It’s only about 70-80 miles wide. But still, we tend to not drive back and forth or in a straight line over water. Still, even to Belfast and back 140 miles. I don’t usually have to refuel before or after that. I refuel once a week (I’d say most people do on average). I can get to Belfast and back twice, then there again on a single tank on the Avensis. If I could do that with an EV, without worrying about the heater being on, any time of year, I’d be happy. As it stands today, that might just about be possible - heater off, coasting as much as possible and whatever else feathering an EV would need - in ideal, mostly flat conditions (which the drive across NI rarely is). In fact we’re so squashed geographically that we end up spending ages going up mountains only to come right back down, then back up another.. then repeat on the way back. So small country, difficult inclines I’d say. Whereas in parts of the mainland it’s probably so stretched out and any given usual destinations may for many be along relatively flat / gentle inclines. Who knows.
I mean.. maybe. But also, look at other technology. 720p > 1080p > 4K, then demands for fast refresh rates, things like HDR. Today’s standard for professional cameras is already 8k. And with the advent of that new Apple headset, shows and movies are already being filmed in that whole new level of technical complexity. All of these demands continue beyond ‘what we actual need’.
Same with phone batteries.. processor chips.. they’re all fine as they are for most people. But they continue to evolve and get better.
I expect that if the EV hype does stay, and does prove the likes of me wrong in what I think, it’ll need to match (at minimum) or exceed certain aspects of ICE.
Sure, sounds a bit pie in the sky today. But if that’s a really unreasonable hope or expectation, sounds like there isn’t really much hope in EVs.
Unless sales can drive further R&D, but given the discussion above about VW, STL.. if they don’t want to keep evolving it (and they’re forced by their governments to keep it going) … perhaps it is naive to expect a higher range, with a less versatile use case scenario.
Or even £46k for a fully-featured, top of the range Peugeot car
Surely at 46k, this is where in the regular car market, we start to top out on brands like Peugeot, and start to get into the ‘nicer’ more interesting engine choice and also out of the stripped down basic models from the ‘luxury’ brands 
That’s so true. Toyota are spot on with its approach. And ironically it might be on the verge of perfecting solid state batteries to theoretically surpass limits that all of the current EVs have! Never the first but by the time they deliver, probably the one you want. (Although dreadfully boring, compared to the Fiats we know and love).
It’s going to hurt EU manufacturers most. Other companies can afford to have a medium-long term strategy to bring EVs in when they deem them good enough and appealing enough to a mass market. Not for EU companies… (and to some extent UK too) since our governments are FORCING their hands. The second they seriously legislated 2030..20235 what other choice did VAG or STL have than to stop wasting time in ICE and go all in on EVs? They’re lucky they’ll be seen as ‘too big to fail’. Just like VAG was ‘too big to face justice’ within the EU after dieselgate
Indeed it's not reasonably priced at all..however this where we're going if the ask is "I want a large SUV that can do many hundred miles between charges even though I never do more than about 10 miles at a time...".
If it was "I'd like a small car that can do 200 odd and charge quickly" then it would be possible to do something like that much cheaper.
Sounds like the Fiat 500e on sale today. But nowhere near cheap or affordable to the groups that historically bought the current modern 500..
But if that is what would be more useful for many drivers, then the only reason for pushing the big beasts is higher profit margin for manufacturers.
They haven't remembered that many built their businesses on catering for the masses, Fiat 500, Citroen 2CV,VW Beetle, etc.
Indeed, because for some reason Fiat built it as a standalone car on a bespoke platform...so it has no economy of scale.
You can get much bigger electric car within Stellantis for similar pricing. Here's one for you have you compared the list price of your dream Panda 4x4 to the projected price of the new C3/Panda with an electric motor?
Are they both perhaps unattainable transport for the elite at 20k?
Yes to me.
Just to pick up on that point. Currently anyone who does not have an electric car has to buy their fuel from one of the many fuel stations dotted about. They need a pump at least and so when you have millions of cars all going to the pump to fill up, having lots of fuel stations and lots of pumps as well as being able to fill those cars up as fast as possible is very helpful.
That being said and with the majority of people doing journeys of 10 miles or less in many cases. They leave their car parked outside their house for 12 hours a day over night and they park in a company car park for another 8 hours a day, there is ample opportunity for these electric cars to be charged and "filled with fuel" if you like without ever having to go to a fuel station.
Range anxiety works for the companies installing charging stations, But if used sensibly most users would never need to go to a fuel station again. Most two car families might only make a 100+ mile journey a couple of times a year and with a 200 - 250 mile range on a lot of the newer EVs, you could charge it once a week on your home charger and that's it.
I get there are a lot of people who may not have the ability to charge at home, they might have only on street parking, but then if they can park and charge at work, the supermarket or some other place like a shopping centre, they too may limit the number of trips they have to make to the pump.
I note now they are introducing into london strips built into the pavement that charging cables can be run along from a house and out to on road, street side parking. So there will be another host of people who don't need to go to the fuel station to charge.
Basically what I'm saying is you won't need as many petrol station charging points as you think, because a massive majority of people will charge at home.
What keeps coming across (not in your posts Bugsymike) but in some other peoples posts is the constant references to the "rich" having EVs and technology filtering down to the "rest of us". And I have to wonder if a lot anti EV sentiment, actually comes from resentment and jealously rather than any concern for the environment or practical limitations of EVs.
As StevenRB45 pointed out when you live in a part of a country you can drive from one side to the other in an hour, and you probably don't do that very often, its obscene to demand a car that can do 400+ miles. People need to shift their thinking away from how we use current ICE cars and understand that there will be some differences with EVs but these are very easy things to overcome with a change in habits, they're not problems.
My most recent trip which was long distance was 100 miles each way to pick up some wheels for my Punto, this is easily achievable in most EVs now. Fiat 500e would be on the edge of that but seeing as I stopped for lunch with my son for 30 - 40 minutes, in that time I could have charged up the extra few miles I needed to complete that journey, it doesn't need a full recharge on the go and the car could be plugged in again when I got home.
When I picked up the Punto I drove 240 miles down from Stockport, which again would have been outside the range of some cars, but with a single stop on the M6 to have a toilet break and get something to eat, an hours charging would add more than enough extra range to get me home. Other than those two trips recently I cannot think of any other recent trips that would have pushed the range beyond what most EVs can do.
But then the complaint is not "electric cars are expensive"..."it's all cars are expensive"Yes to me.
Which is a valid complaint but it's not electric car specific.
Maybe I am just a "tight a**"
, since 1969 I have loads of vehicles genuinely 200+ and the most I have ever spent on one was including Vat for a work vehicle at around £2.5K on average majority under £1k even these days.I can see the logic in buying a house that goes up in value, but generally cars only go one way.
Sort of. I mean, in the space of 10 years, a basic Fiat Panda for example, going from £8,000 to £20,000 for this new electric Panda base model.
That’s more than double!
In ten years.
Inflation / cost of things going up, to be expected.
So… in 2003, was a Panda base model £4,000 or less? I’d be surprised if so.
I doubt the incomes of the consumers of the Panda and city cars as a whole has doubled from 2013 to 2023
I reckon it’s EV specific.. new Corsa. £18k. New Corsa Electric, £32k. Nearly double. Same car.
For that money, why would I buy a city car? I can buy a new A-Class for that. Less than that, actually.
And as for the A-Class, from £30k new.
EQA - presumably the ‘new world’ A-Class, of course it’s a weird SUV thing… 49k. Still a lot more. Still warranting of ‘Well, I’ve got 49k to spend.. why buy an EQA when I can buy a Merc with power, soul and far superior handling’.
I’m not saying the price has to be the same. After all, when we all believed diesels were superior, we paid a few grand more for those engine choices. Not double digit percentage of the base car value more for it.
This is true to a point.... I bet some of those old cars you owned in the past could be worth a lot of money now even in the 10s of thousands in some cases.Maybe I am just a "tight a**"
I can see the logic in buying a house that goes up in value, but generally cars only go one way.
but just averaging things out 200 vehicles in 54 years is nearly 4 cars per year, so if you're spending say an average of £1000 a time then over the years you have spent a great deal of money on cars, perhaps a £4k car may have lasted longer
Yes but buying new cars has always been expensive, I could buy a year old electric car with 200+ mile range for about 17k today, which I get if you're not in the market for a year old small family car is still expensive... But in the current market that's reasonable.
Also you're looking at early adopter pricing which the Corsa is make no mistake and saying "this is how it's gonna be" let's face it, if you didn't want a 32k Corsa they will happily sell you a petrol one instead and they probably make about the same margin on it no skin off their nose if you buy a petrol one instead.
As you say if only I had those cars now, some were quite interesting but at the time were just cheap bangers and I would say up until the 1990s most cost me less than £300,I was being generous re prices, many I paid under £20, I have had customers who to save them the trouble of advertising their old vehicle when upgrading would just give me it. I am not talking about scrappers, they all had current Mots and ran reliable as they had been serviced by me regularly. The cars I own now, 2012 Citroen C3 Picasso £300, 2010 Fiat Doblo Maxi 1.6 £750, 2007 Skoda Octavia Scout 4x4 £750, 2010 Fiat Scudo 120 Panoramic 8 seater £1000, in fairness they all needed some work doing which was why I bought them to keep my brain working now retired. People say why don't you keep repairing customers cars but the difference is I can do these when I want to, not because I have to.This is true to a point.... I bet some of those old cars you owned in the past could be worth a lot of money now even in the 10s of thousands in some cases.
but just averaging things out 200 vehicles in 54 years is nearly 4 cars per year, so if you're spending say an average of £1000 a time then over the years you have spent a great deal of money on cars, perhaps a £4k car may have lasted longer
So as you can see even if I sold them all, it wouldn't go far towards a new EV or even an ICE.
I never sold on my old vehicles for a profit, even the motorcycles it was a long time ago but as an example I sold a 1955 Matchless G11 Super Clubman 600cc with double adult sidecar for £2. a Greeves Scottish ISDT Trials with square barrekl 32TES villiers engine for less than £30.
I look at vehicles in the same way as buying at auction, only spend what you can afford to throw away.
I'm only joking with you and you were in the trade to cars tend to pass through your hands like running water.As you say if only I had those cars now, some were quite interesting but at the time were just cheap bangers and I would say up until the 1990s most cost me less than £300,I was being generous re prices, many I paid under £20, I have had customers who to save them the trouble of advertising their old vehicle when upgrading would just give me it. I am not talking about scrappers, they all had current Mots and ran reliable as they had been serviced by me regularly. The cars I own now, 2012 Citroen C3 Picasso £300, 2010 Fiat Doblo Maxi 1.6 £750, 2007 Skoda Octavia Scout 4x4 £750, 2010 Fiat Scudo 120 Panoramic 8 seater £1000, in fairness they all needed some work doing which was why I bought them to keep my brain working now retired. People say why don't you keep repairing customers cars but the difference is I can do these when I want to, not because I have to.
So as you can see even if I sold them all, it wouldn't go far towards a new EV or even an ICE.
I never sold on my old vehicles for a profit, even the motorcycles it was a long time ago but as an example I sold a 1955 Matchless G11 Super Clubman 600cc with double adult sidecar for £2. a Greeves Scottish ISDT Trials with square barrekl 32TES villiers engine for less than £30.
I look at vehicles in the same way as buying at auction, only spend what you can afford to throw away.
My brother is the same, you never know what car he is going to have from one day to the next, he doesn't have to worry about changing his insurance each time or how much the insurance will cost, just needs tax and an MOT and 300 yards up the road is the guy who does all his MOTs, you did your own making it even easier.
arguably you're not the target market for any new car let alone an EV, but if it were not for people buying all those cars you've had new, then they would never exist for you to buy them cheaply.
Manufacturers are trying to bring EVs to market as they do make sense in keeping pollution away from the city and town centers they also arguably save a lot in distribution losses as the power is sent down a wire and not moved about the world in huge ships and lorries. transmission losses are low, for power distribution.
So there are a lot of benefits to us having EVs and at the moment, the amount of CO2 produced to make an electric car might be higher, but the amount they produce over time is much lower and by 70-80k miles they are then dip below the level of CO2 production of an equivalent ICE car.
Also at the end of their lives you can recycle the battery into new batteries, you can't recycle 20 years of burnt petrol fumes into new petrol... we technically you can but its a stupidly complex and expensive process to manufacture synthetic fuels.
There are a lot of reasons that electric cars make more sense than petrol or diesel, the one reason we ended up with petrol cars was a lot due to henry ford as prior to the Model T, the majority of cars sold in the early 1900s were battery electric.
Imagine where electric cars would be now with over 100 years of R&D rather than just the last 20 or so.
Year old...barely got the stickers worn off the tyres.
Should cost significantly less to run than buying a new petrol Corsa for 18k..
So very much depends whether or not your expectations are to buy a new 500 mile car for 5 English pounds otherwise you aren't interested.
It's got heated seats..... I bet it also has carplay
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