Another Dealer Quits

[AndyRKett]

So this is interesting. Today Stellantis announced a deal has been done with a company called Qinomic in france to retro fit electric drive trains to existing internal combustion engine'd vans.

The full release about this is as follows

A 100% electric retrofit solution unveiled with Qinomic

Stellantis extends its range of LCV zero emission solutions by unveiling, in partnership with Qinomic, a 100% electric, economical and eco-responsible retrofit solution: this "e-RETROFIT" service will first be offered in France on the medium-sized thermal van, exposed to Solutrans, then expanded to other markets and other van sizes.

• This solution will allow professional customers to continue to access the city centers in low-emission areas and to decarbonize their fleet while extending the life of their vehicle, maintaining its facilities and benefiting from the manufacturer guarantee.
• With a range of 120 miles (subject to WLTP approval), a fast recharge and a loading capacity of more than 900 kg (as defined by the retrofit model), this solution covers the majority of use cases.

This solution will be available in France in the second half of 2024. Vehicles will be processed at an industrial Stellantis site. The thermal engine components, once removed from the vehicle, will be re-used to supply the SUSTAINera reuse parts inventory as part of the circular economy offer.

So no need to buy a new van when you can have the manufacturer perform a retro fit of an authorized electric engine replacement. This is particularly important in places like France where vehicle modifications are illegal unless authorized and signed off by the manufacture so this partnership is good news for the longevity of many vans out in the world at the moment. Rather than fleet buyers having to bin their current ICE powered fleet, to update themselves to all electric vehicles, they can seriously reduce the cost by just having the engine replaced, and the engine that is removed will be stripped down to its component parts and reused and recycled via the genuine parts department at stellantis. so will benefit everyone.

 

[HughJarsse]

So this is interesting. Today Stellantis announced a deal has been done with a company called Qinomic in france to retro fit electric drive trains to existing internal combustion engine'd vans.

The full release about this is as follows



So no need to buy a new van when you can have the manufacturer perform a retro fit of an authorized electric engine replacement. This is particularly important in places like France where vehicle modifications are illegal unless authorized and signed off by the manufacture so this partnership is good news for the longevity of many vans out in the world at the moment. Rather than fleet buyers having to bin their current ICE powered fleet, to update themselves to all electric vehicles, they can seriously reduce the cost by just having the engine replaced, and the engine that is removed will be stripped down to its component parts and reused and recycled via the genuine parts department at stellantis. so will benefit everyone.

Be interesting to see just how much this costs, and the remaining life of the vehicles components that are the original parts, compared to just getting a new van?
Also, how long will the replacement take, will companies be without transport for the time taken, this may well decide whether it's actually worth the trouble, unless they can get a replacement vehicle whilst the replacement work is being done.
Don't think this will be a 'done in a day' job, also, what sort of capacity for doing this has this Qinomic got? Are we talking a few vans a week, or are they going large scale on this.
Sounds ok, but needs a bit more looking into I think.

 

[SB1500]

Be interesting to see just how much this costs, and the remaining life of the vehicles components that are the original parts, compared to just getting a new van?
Also, how long will the replacement take, will companies be without transport for the time taken, this may well decide whether it's actually worth the trouble, unless they can get a replacement vehicle whilst the replacement work is being done.
Don't think this will be a 'done in a day' job, also, what sort of capacity for doing this has this Qinomic got? Are we talking a few vans a week, or are they going large scale on this.
Sounds ok, but needs a bit more looking into I think.

Doubt it'll work. For the reasons you say.

Plus... ever seen a work van? Majority of them are well used, spared no pity when the bodywork gets rough, dented, rust spots, interiors damaged, paint covered, dirty... a lot of them after a few years of service, even if in theory they had perfect, clockwork engines and no leaks, would they really be worth keeping when the body / condition overall gets a lot of abuse (by being used for its core purpose)?

And even if it could work, like a lot of complex DIY projects that could otherwise be mass produced / maintained, you can bet from that day on, the manufacturers will implement physical / programmatic barriers to making it easy or possible if they seriously find it a threat to new vehicle sales.

Most companies throw things away, be it vehicles.. computers or equipment well before it reaches wore out status. All those ex-lease, ex-fleet vehicle auctions or even bargains on ex-gym equipment which is perfect (but used) but is replaced merely to keep the business using new / as problem-free as possible kit as possible, probably won't change even if they could put new electric drivetrains in them.

Private van buyers / individual van drivers are probably such a small subset of new sales?

 

[AndyRKett]

Be interesting to see just how much this costs, and the remaining life of the vehicles components that are the original parts, compared to just getting a new van?
Also, how long will the replacement take, will companies be without transport for the time taken, this may well decide whether it's actually worth the trouble, unless they can get a replacement vehicle whilst the replacement work is being done.
Don't think this will be a 'done in a day' job, also, what sort of capacity for doing this has this Qinomic got? Are we talking a few vans a week, or are they going large scale on this.
Sounds ok, but needs a bit more looking into I think.

From the article it seems that they will be doing the work on an industrial scale..

Obviously this isn’t a service for Dave who does a bit of painting and decorating, this is for massive companies with huge fleets who may want to order 2-3k electric vans but there just isn’t the capacity to supply that many vans all at one, I can see them doing a deal that they take 3000 diesel vans now and then as parts become available they take them in to be converted, or it may be very cost effective for a company who has a huge fleet of diesel vans and they want to upgrade to electric vans, where an electric van might cost 50k and a diesel can might be say 25k your budget to buy electric will only get you half way to completely changing your fleet to electric. The conversion might be £25-30k and so the fleet buyers could opt to keep their old vans and have them upgraded to electric only

Fleet buyers then have a more cost effective choice to upgrade to electric vehicles and could convert their existing fleet for the price they’d pay for new diesel vans.

 

[StevenRB45]

This is vaguely interesting in the context of the discussion (bloody hate the thing but hey).

Peugeot e-3008 brings 326 miles of range for £45,850 | Autocar

Restyled coupe-SUV uses new EV-focused platform and offers 316bhp range-topper

www.autocar.co.uk

We are very used to the current Stellantis offering of basically one motor and battery pack..

New platform is out, both the price and range are very competitive/better than comparable cars from the other legacy manufacturers and even Tesla.

I'm still very much "down with this sort of thing" but if we compare this brick **** house with the similarly specced Kia brick **** house, it does pretty much the same distance on 25% less battery with similar performance or 25% more range with battery parity.

It also outclasses the VW ID4 GTX as well for less money.

Will be interesting when the actual STLA platforms come through in the next generation as they would appear to be very competitive.

 

[AndyRKett]

It also outclasses the VW ID4 GTX as well for less money.

A news story out today suggests VW are going to be laying off massive amounts of staff especially those nearing retirement as a $9bn cost cutting exercise over the next few years. This is being put down to the poor uptake of EVs and the very high up front manufacturing costs. The iD GTi is now being touted for a 2027 launch..... that's a very long time.

I don't doubt they will sort it all out, but it does make you wonder how much other manufacturers are feeling the pinch. VW obviously has a lot of debt from dieselgate, but other manufacturers including fiat were hit by this to some lesser degree

It does seem that STL are doing some interesting things in the EV market, and they are moving quickly. Without stelantis, there is no way fiat could move like they're able now.

 

[SB1500]

This is vaguely interesting in the context of the discussion (bloody hate the thing but hey).

Peugeot e-3008 brings 326 miles of range for £45,850 | Autocar

Restyled coupe-SUV uses new EV-focused platform and offers 316bhp range-topper

www.autocar.co.uk

We are very used to the current Stellantis offering of basically one motor and battery pack..

New platform is out, both the price and range are very competitive/better than comparable cars from the other legacy manufacturers and even Tesla.

I'm still very much "down with this sort of thing" but if we compare this brick **** house with the similarly specced Kia brick **** house, it does pretty much the same distance on 25% less battery with similar performance or 25% more range with battery parity.

It also outclasses the VW ID4 GTX as well for less money.

Will be interesting when the actual STLA platforms come through in the next generation as they would appear to be very competitive.

450 mile range plus is when I’ll start treating EVs on par with ICE.

~350 miles in practice with high beam, flat-to-the-mat acceleration / rough driving style, heater on full, heated seats, more ambient lighting than an airport has runway lights, power hungry MBUX level infotainment screen(S), winters day 0 degrees Celsius.

When EVs start achieving that. I reckon ‘most’ people can use them as carelessly as we use our ICE cars.

Seems like we’re getting there.. isn’t 400+ becoming a thing with Polestar and Mercedes EVs now? Like plasma TVs the rich folks can crawl so we can run with them maybe in the future..

Though not sure we’re getting any closer to ‘green driving’. Sorry, can’t talk EVs without dragging that up… my bad.

 

[SB1500]

Btw; any of you noticing a lot more petrol stations opening locally this last two years?

We’ve had an insane number pop up this year alone. And notably, with much bigger car parks / far reaching extra spaces than ‘local shops’ / petrol stations even as new as the early 2010s were being built with.

There’s a nearby spot at the edge of the city here. Tiny Costcutter. Approved as a premier inn was approved behind it late 2000s. For YEARS they tried to get a petrol station there. Nope. Too noisy, too bright, too dangerous - fumes and all that. One of the HARDEST things to get approved so close to residential zones, although at the time; it was surrounded by fields and one bypass dual carriageway. They finally surrounded it in more homes. No longer the extreme edge of the city. Approved it (finally) to be rebuilt, much bigger shop, still convenience just modern. Four court and pumps, and twin jet wash stations. The works.

Had three more around the city - some in much more built up areas.

My theory is… that they know they’re going to need more places for EVs to charge so they’ve went easier on approval of petrol stations with large car parks knowing that if the plan goes well, it’ll come in handy for the majority of folks without a driveway or parking space to be able to recharge.

Am I getting crazy with these theories or could this be a legitimate change in council decision making across the country to prepare for EVs?

 

[bugsymike]

Be interesting to see just how much this costs, and the remaining life of the vehicles components that are the original parts, compared to just getting a new van?
Also, how long will the replacement take, will companies be without transport for the time taken, this may well decide whether it's actually worth the trouble, unless they can get a replacement vehicle whilst the replacement work is being done.
Don't think this will be a 'done in a day' job, also, what sort of capacity for doing this has this Qinomic got? Are we talking a few vans a week, or are they going large scale on this.
Sounds ok, but needs a bit more looking into I think.

Wonder how the owners will appreciate their payload/profit cut in half due to the weight of batteries etc.

 

[AndyRKett]

Btw; any of you noticing a lot more petrol stations opening locally this last two years?

Growing demand for petrol in Northern Ireland??? all those people filling up their spare milk bottles with a rag stopper in the top.

Wonder how the owners will appreciate their payload/profit cut in half due to the weight of batteries etc.

Lets be honest most van drivers these days are multidrop drivers who in big cities cover maybe 3 or even 4 feet between houses to drop off endless amazon parcels full of mostly air and a couple of AA batteries. So the payload is basically carrying mostly empty boxes a hundred yards down the road.

 

[StevenRB45]

A news story out today suggests VW are going to be laying off massive amounts of staff especially those nearing retirement as a $9bn cost cutting exercise over the next few years. This is being put down to the poor uptake of EVs and the very high up front manufacturing costs. The iD GTi is now being touted for a 2027 launch..... that's a very long time.

I've been reading some speculation along the lines of "too big to fail" i.e. it's likely the German government would bail them out if things got too dire though fairly sure that's in breach of EU competition law so would be interesting times from that angle given the German position in the EU.

From what I've read they weren't meant to be using Id architecture now at this point or it's replacement was meant to be forthcoming. But due to them never quite getting it to work right/as expected the CEO decided to stick with it and knock the software edges off before they added more complexity in to things they didn't quite understand.

It's likely the next gen VW architecture has similar numbers or better planned...but their sales figures and software issues are really putting the brakes on it.

It's interesting that despite the 435mile range..the STLA platform is still multifuel, so a hybrid can be had for 11k less than the starting price of the leccy one. The designer though is basically on record saying "yes it's heavy as it's also meant for 4x4s and 7 seaters so the suspension set up is far heavier than it need be and aluminium is too expensive to use to bring the weight back down".

350 miles in practice with high beam, flat-to-the-mat acceleration / rough driving style, heater on full, heated seats, more ambient lighting than an airport has runway lights, power hungry MBUX level infotainment screen(S), winters day 0 degrees Celsius.

Name an ice car that can manage that?

Even a diesel will struggle given those conditions and driving style. Last tank on our little box was 42mpg which given it's been freezing and defrosting most days is pretty good (Mazda managed barely 35 in the same). 42mpg worked out at 380miles on a tank...but that was not flat out.

 

[portland_bill]

Growing demand for petrol in Northern Ireland??? all those people filling up their spare milk bottles with a rag stopper in the top.

I always wondered how anyone afforded petrol bombs.

 

[StevenRB45]

I always wondered how anyone afforded petrol bombs.

Perhaps with recent increase in fuel prices and margin supply of rioters is more profitable than it was...

Or cars...but mainly rioters.

 

[AndyRKett]

I've been reading some speculation along the lines of "too big to fail" i.e. it's likely the German government would bail them out if things got too dire though fairly sure that's in breach of EU competition law so would be interesting times from that angle given the German position in the EU.

VW has huge backing and investors who would pile money in. Lets be honest here they are the biggest manufacturer in the world of cars and so it's not just VW, it's porsche, bugatti, bentley, Audi, VW, Skoda, SEAT, Cupra, Lamborghini, Not to mention Navistar, Scania and Man trucks and I think they own Ducati ?

Tesla is way more likely to go bust before VW, and to be fair that could happen if their share price collapsed. Even Stellantis is not in the best of positions with all the merged companies now sharing their collective debt.

So I don't think VW will go anywhere for a while. But the motoring world is going to be in flux for the next 10 - 15 years as we head towards an all electric world.

Even a diesel will struggle given those conditions and driving style. Last tank on our little box was 42mpg which given it's been freezing and defrosting most days is pretty good (Mazda managed barely 35 in the same). 42mpg worked out at 380miles on a tank...but that was not flat out.

My golf will do an easy 50mpg and has a 50L fuel tank. I regularly get over 500 miles to a tank, My Wife's Mini I believe has some extended range fuel tank of some 61 litres, over the standard 48, that will also do an easy 50mpg + so again well over 500 miles. But that is on a diesel and most petrol cars will top out around 350 ish miles on a tank. which would be an average 8 gallon tank doing about 44/45MPG

 

[AndyRKett]

I always wondered how anyone afforded petrol bombs.

There's probably not a lot else to spend their money on?

 

[StevenRB45]

VW has huge backing and investors who would pile money in. Lets be honest here they are the biggest manufacturer in the world of cars and so it's not just VW, it's porsche, bugatti, bentley, Audi, VW, Skoda, SEAT, Cupra, Lamborghini, Not to mention Navistar, Scania and Man trucks and I think they own Ducati ?

Tesla is way more likely to go bust before VW, and to be fair that could happen if their share price collapsed. Even Stellantis is not in the best of positions with all the merged companies now sharing their collective debt.

So I don't think VW will go anywhere for a while. But the motoring world is going to be in flux for the next 10 - 15 years as we head towards an all electric world.


My golf will do an easy 50mpg and has a 50L fuel tank. I regularly get over 500 miles to a tank, My Wife's Mini I believe has some extended range fuel tank of some 61 litres, over the standard 48, that will also do an easy 50mpg + so again well over 500 miles. But that is on a diesel and most petrol cars will top out around 350 ish miles on a tank. which would be an average 8 gallon tank doing about 44/45MPG

At the moment it's a case of find a legacy manufacturer that isn't looking a little wobbly.

Mpg wise...I think living in a flat area with a minimum trip length of 20 miles has given you a rose tinted view of diesel efficiency.

So while our last tank was 42mpg...I've driven the diesel equivalent same engine in a similar car in similar conditions and efficiency started with a 3 not a 4. Because at 0 degrees and full electric load, the harder start diesel works the electrical systems significantly harder and isn't warm at any point on a short/medium trip. Also handily the diesel equivalent of our car has adblue in the main fuel tank space so 5 litres less fuel on board as well.

However the main point was...in absolute worst case scenario i.e. driving like a shaft with all the toys turned on in sub zero conditions you'd be very lucky indeed to get a regular 350 miles out of a modern ice car..so it's a strange expectation to have of an electric car. It also has the feel of one of those numbers where if it was achieved..the target would suddenly be 500 miles...with a 1 minute charge stop.

One random thing I did notice...for some reason reviews of the 3008 mention the weight of it in a somewhat reproachful finger wagging manner. At 2100kg it's about the same as an ID4...

For me both of those cars are far too heavy but for the motoring press it's strange how they have an absolute blind spot regards the weight of a vehicle until it's a competitive Peugeot at which point it's a problem.

 

[bugsymike]

It also has the feel of one of those numbers where if it was achieved..the target would suddenly be 500 miles...with a 1 minute charge stop.

However I think you have brought the other elephant in the room, time taken to refill, plus the size of fuel station needed to fill up a similar amount of vehicles per day. A busy petrol stationary probably has enough vehicles going across it's forecourt in a day to fill a large multi story car park!
The other point is there will always be the idiots who run on empty to delay spending money, but now will not be able to get their empty five litre can from the boot for the walk to the petrol station to get out of trouble.
Noble though environmental aims are, there are many practical problems that have yet to be solved, as vehicle manufacturers have realised and are starting to hedge their bets with ICE and Hybrid still in their model range for years to come.
Politicians can make promises for the future, when many will not be in power even in five years to face the fall out, it is always the public who pay.

 

[StevenRB45]

The thing about your elephant is it gets bigger the longer the range you demand.

At this point you could rapid charge a 200 mile electric car 20-80 in about the time it takes to get out, go for a wee and have a drink.

But if you want a 400mile electric car..you can double that time...also the price of the car...also the environmental damage it does so it's very much ensuring you will be disappointed by them in all ways.

Also the poster lives in Northern Ireland so the longest you can travel between the furthest points of it is 150 miles. I'm not sure how reasonable an expectation of "I want to drive all the way across the country I live in then back, then a bit more...in the middle of winter while doing everything possible to make that not happen" is but that might be my reading of it.

 

[bugsymike]

The thing about your elephant is it gets bigger the longer the range you demand.

At this point you could rapid charge a 200 mile electric car 20-80 in about the time it takes to get out, go for a wee and have a drink.

But if you want a 400mile electric car..you can double that time...also the price of the car...also the environmental damage it does so it's very much ensuring you will be disappointed by them in all ways.

Also the poster lives in Northern Ireland so the longest you can travel between the furthest points of it is 150 miles. I'm not sure how reasonable an expectation of "I want to drive all the way across the country I live in then back, then a bit more...in the middle of winter while doing everything possible to make that not happen" is but that might be my reading of it.

Generally my vehicle usage is less than ten mile return journeys these days with the odd hundred or so, but I refill at around mid 200s as fuel gauge approaches 1/4 left, so not the most economical use.
I believe my local petrol station has around twelve filling points from six islands and even though there is a food shop most customers are off the forecourt in under ten minutes, so open 15hours a day, just over a thousand fill ups, so if on the generous side say 20 min to recharge then forecourt size would need to be doubled. If you were to say the 80 minute charge then to me it is another thing that hasn't been taken into account in the discussion by politicians etc.
Another point in my area is most vehicles are over ten years old for many reasons, EV battery capacity diminishes with age so adding to the problem.
I have four vehicles (three on the road), the newest is nearly twelve years old, if I sold all of them it wouldn't pay for even an average s/h EV and that is without including cost of installing charging points if viable or the fact I wouldn't be able to repair it myself for just the cost of materials.

 

[StevenRB45]

Well that's not saying they are for everyone at this point...but the risk with saying things like "I want a minimum 450 mile EV" is they will build them and you will be forever priced out of the market as the battery pack to achieve that is huge. In the US it's a reasonable demand given distances travelled but in Europe not so much.

Take the Peugeot...it achieves 4.5 miles per kWh, despite being a brick and weighing 2.1 and achieves 300 miles plus on the smaller battery option.

If you said something more realistic like 250 miles...well you can get rid of chunk of battery pack, so weight is less, price is less, efficiency is better so there's good chance you'll be getting somewhere near the bigger battery packed car in general use.

Battery life, well the cheaper LFP batteries have the useful side effect of lasting more charging cycles, and as well as not being as dangerous if damaged...but they can't really be used to achieve massive ranges due to energy density so by making an unrealistic range demand you're upping the raw materials costs, the price, the environmental damage, the time needed to charge/the charging power needed to achieve a reasonable charging time and the weight of the car oh and making your car more dangerous in a fire.

My plot to manage charging is as follows..stick a 7kw wallbox on the front of the house, charge it once a week. But I could also charge it at work...or at the local country park who have a rapid charger so could go for a walk on a Sunday and come back to a fully charged car or many many other places doesn't need to be at petrol station.