there is a possibility of the pully to be 1/2 a tooth out and still work. There are some online guides that are wrong and will lead to this situation
Technical 2009 Panda 1.1 timing belt change.
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Technical 2009 Panda 1.1 timing belt change.
I think we are going around in circles here but here is a summary of my car: Before the belt change it ran ok with no fault codes (I peorodically check all my cars with an icarsoft all systems scanner). With the engine in the correct position (No. 1 cyliner at tdc on the compression stroke) the cam and crank locking tools could not be fitted until the belt was moved by 1 tooth. With the new belt fitted (with the cam and crank locking tools in place) it runs ok but with much improved fuel consumption and still no fault codes recorded. I appreciate your attempts to help and educate me but I don't intend to strip the items down again because I'm happy with the result.
First post
"The job was going fine until I tried to fit the crank lock (having first locked the camshaft), it was about 12cms"
thats over 70 degrees out on the crank, if typo for 12mm thats about what mine was with a worn belt
the computer brain reads the cam and Crank sensor
it knows there position because the pulses aren't even all the way round.
its impossible to not have an engine light and be a full tooth out, a few degrees yes
technically you could manually edit the ECU to ignore the cam sensor, not something most garages or home mechanics could do
unless the wave forms closely matches expected the computer will always throw a code. I tried one tooth advanced and it did as expected.
this is similar to what the ECU see's unfortunately I was unable to find a pandas wave form
I am happy your car is running better, Which is the main thing
my 05 didn't round oil filler not sure if my 06 did. It had the same cam cover as a VVT except the solenoid is blocked off. But can't be sure about the cam sensor
08 1.2 does which is well before VVT and of cause my eco does
be interesting to know when a cam sensor was added to the 1.1 and 1.2 all countries and so on
I'm lost in all this backwards and forwards, all I can add is my 2009 1.1eco active was the same as the OP's when I did the cambelt, ie the cam locking tool would not fit into position with crank locking tool in place, I removed the cambelt then locked the cam and proceeded from there with the same method the OP posted above. That was 25,000 miles ago, Not looked back since.....
correct you can not fit the cam belt with the cam and Crank locking tool in place, well not the belt and tensioner I was using
someone needs to write a guide as elearn doesn't work properly on these latter engines the 500 guide is close but is also not quite right
the original belt has to correct though, one tooth advanced, and it will no rev properly, does not have very Good compression and will always throw an error code
the problem is there isnt enough slack here to fit the belt correctly with the tools in place. Its always a tooth out. You dont undo the cam bolt as in an online tutorial, you have to remove the cam locking tool and turn the cam half a tooth anti clockwise and fit the belt. This is quite easy to do if you wedge the new belt on the Crank pully. can be done by eye, no paint required. Double check after tensioning
its this gap that makes it impossible with the belt and tensioner I was using, there's just not enough movement.
once both the cam locking plate and crank locking plate were on, the new belt was fitted and over-tensioned which settles the belt into the teeth of the sprockets, engine turned over twice, then released the tensioner and set iaw the markings, no messing with being 1/2 a tooth out so i still don't get what you are trying to get at..........
with the cam and Crank locked on my engine and with my belt kit its not possible to pull the tight side tight enough, It looks like its half a tooth out but its not. There's only a few mm of tensioner adjustment and its not enough to pull it onto the correct tooth. I tested the camshaft pully alignment and it showed to be spot on.
Its a fairly common occurrence as its often bodged by doing this
Replacing The Cambelt And Water Pump On A Fiat 500 1.2 8v
You need to be able to support the engine as the right hand engine mount has to be removed when changing the cambelt on a Fiat 500 1.2 8v.
fiatworkshop.co.uk
and its the same wrong (imo) instructions in the Haynes manual, I believe.
These will put the timing a fraction out, but will make the next cam belt change a straightforward job if the next belt and tensioner are identical.
here me testing the alignment of my pully
I tried several time to fit the belt with the cam and Crank locked. You might be able to crowbar it on but you risk damaging the belt. It easier just to remove the cam locking tool and rotate it slightly, slip the belt on, rotate it back and put the locking tool back in.
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The Cam Lock and Crank Lock are used together when the cam wheel is free to turn on the cam. This allows the belt to tension correctly all around the belt run. After tensioning, you hold the cam wheel and torque tighten its retaining bolt.
For simply changing the belt, lock the crank and mark the cam wheel position. Leave the cam loose and fit the new belt. Confirm its aligned after tensioning and it all done. If you suspect the cam timing is wrong, you'll have to do the full job with cam wheel loosened.
For simply changing the belt, lock the crank and mark the cam wheel position. Leave the cam loose and fit the new belt. Confirm its aligned after tensioning and it all done. If you suspect the cam timing is wrong, you'll have to do the full job with cam wheel loosened.
That’s one way and it will work , But that’s not Fiats way
there is a camshaft pully alighnment tool which bolts to the front of the engine with the cam lock at the back. Once set it should not be loosened to change a cam belt.
3234dmtr
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When the tools don't engage in either the crank- or camshaft, you'll have to loosen the camshaft pully to let it engage. The crankshaft is leading in my opinion. Basically, the procedure is the same as with VAG TDI ( PD ) engines. Lock everything up and loosen the camshaft pully to get the belt tensioned correctly.
I see it as the
camshaft is locked at the back with
and the pully is locked at the front by
the T55 is then torqued to 70nm its then set and you shouldn't ever need readjusting.
without a proper impact driver undoing the T55 will be challenging as it will takes over 100nm to undo.
On my car I was not be able to fit the belt with the cam and Crank locked. But when the belt settled and tensioned correctly the crankshaft and camshaft tools will just drop in. It would appear other people have the same problem. There just not enough movement in the tensioner. A lot are the same, Looking on YouTube (500 and KA) the actual fitting of the belt over the pulleys is often cut or speeded up.
3234dmtr
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Be aware that the respective timing kit vendors give a torque setting for the camshaft pulley of 20 Nm + 55° for the Panda. The 70 Nm setting is mentioned for the 500. I've used an impact tool on almost every nut/bolt too loosen these. On the camshaft pully however I've used my good old 1,5 meter breaker bar ( hufterpijp in Dutch )...!
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If the timing was correct with the old belt, there is no reason to expect the new belt to change anything. The reason for paint marking the cam pulley teeth is simply that tensioning the belt will pull it out of line (it all happens at one side). So you lock the crank, position the cam one tooth out and set the tensioner. Tensioning pulls the timing back into line and the marks will now line up. That's it! Job Done!
If the cam has to be disturbed in any way, the full timing job has to be done with the cam locked and its wheel free to turn while the belt is tensioned. I have all this to look forward to when I do my 1.3 JTD** timing chain and valve rockers. Finances are still scuppering the job.
Different engine - same principle.
If the cam has to be disturbed in any way, the full timing job has to be done with the cam locked and its wheel free to turn while the belt is tensioned. I have all this to look forward to when I do my 1.3 JTD** timing chain and valve rockers. Finances are still scuppering the job.
Different engine - same principle.
Fiat tool 2.000.004.200 sets the pully to cam timing, not the belt. although using the belt will work. Its not the correct way according to eLearn and will lead the the timing being fraction of a tooth different.
undoing the pully to change the bet is not the correct way according to eLearn
the pully is fitted with the tool and torqued up without the belt present and only needs to be undone if the cams, valves, seats or seals are being worked on.
the T55 will be about twice the tightness of a wheel nut to undo if its not been apart for 15 years. personally I would leave it alone unless absolutely necessary
the confusion arises because with some engines and belt kits you can't quite get the cam pully to tensioner to Crank pully quite tight enough. The tensioner has too little movement
All you have to do is jam the belt on the Crank pully with a rag, there is a handy lip below. Remove the cam lock, Turn the cam anti clockwise until the belt drops into the next tooth, there is a handy hex cast into the cam for this.
centre the belt on both pullies and tighten the tensioner fully. remove the Crank lock and turn the engine a fair few time. Worth putting a rag over the oil feed hole unless you want oil over the garage floor
then tension everything up as normal and check the timing with the locking tools. Takes longer to explain than to do
a lot of engines will have had the timing belt already fitted at a garage using the loosen pully method, because the pully is slightly retarded you can probably just lock the cam and Crank and throw a belt on okay.
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I think we are in agreement here.
All I am saying is that a correct belt will accurately fit the cam and crank pulleys. If the fit is different, it's the wrong belt that can never achieve a correct timing setup. The belt teeth pitch has to be extremely precise and correct for the engine. Same as it would if a cam chain was being fitted.
WHEN we assume the cam to cm wheel timing is correct, we can simply change the belt while making sure the belt and wheel teeth align correctly (the quick-n-simple method).
WHEN we find the cam to cam wheel timing is suspect (e.g. the top end of the engine has been taken apart), the whole thing has to be retimed with the correct tools. The wheel correctly locked to the cam using the correct timing tools and and bolt torque procedure.
That's all there is to it.
When you dont know the history of your engine or suspect the cam timing is wrong or non-existent - Go the whole route. When it was running fine with the old belt, there is little point in taking things apart that you don't need to touch.
All I am saying is that a correct belt will accurately fit the cam and crank pulleys. If the fit is different, it's the wrong belt that can never achieve a correct timing setup. The belt teeth pitch has to be extremely precise and correct for the engine. Same as it would if a cam chain was being fitted.
WHEN we assume the cam to cm wheel timing is correct, we can simply change the belt while making sure the belt and wheel teeth align correctly (the quick-n-simple method).
WHEN we find the cam to cam wheel timing is suspect (e.g. the top end of the engine has been taken apart), the whole thing has to be retimed with the correct tools. The wheel correctly locked to the cam using the correct timing tools and and bolt torque procedure.
That's all there is to it.
When you dont know the history of your engine or suspect the cam timing is wrong or non-existent - Go the whole route. When it was running fine with the old belt, there is little point in taking things apart that you don't need to touch.
3234dmtr
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The whole idea to loosen up the camshaft pulley is to tension the ( new ) timing belt evenly, just like it is with the VAG procedure. But instead of dealing with a single T55 bolt you have 3 * M8 bolts if I recall correctly on the VAG camshaft pulley. FYI, the T55 bolt is a breeze compared to the rear wheel bearing bolt on a škoda Octavia.....
with the cam pully correctly timed and the cam and Crank locked you can not physically fit the belt
there just isnt enough movement in the tensioner.
thats on an eco 1.2 2011
not sure I understand. The belt should be tight on the tight side. Setting it even is out by fraction of a tooth
the Cam pully is free to rotate. But there is only 44 correct positions
belt is finally tension after all the locking tools have been removed.
and after a few turns of the Crank at max tension
there's a gauge built into the later tensioners and is hard to get the tension wrong.
3234dmtr
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The idea is to get the tension the same on the whole timing belt, not only on the 'tight' side that's being pulled by the crankshaft. You will have enough play on the tensioner without over stretching the belt itself.
Same idea, different manufacturer: VAG TDI timing belt
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