i want pretty graphs of what my car does now!! lol
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Technical Woj's turbo project
Excellent work proffessor Woj. 
OK, the thing is tuned up in closed loop, took me a couple of iterations, fixing nasty mistakes in the tables and the wrong way of my thinking Results in the attachments - 0.8 bar boost with the first map, 1bar boost with the second map, and a very very light sprint. Yet again the engine still lives, to my total surprise
Results in the attachments - 0.8 bar boost with the first map, 1bar boost with the second map, and a very very light sprint. Yet again the engine still lives, to my total surprise Attachments
these are really strong engines really, people don't give them enough credit but i understand your fears lol.
If it hasn't blown up yet clearly the turbo isn't big enough...
Well, actually, I personally think that the whole experiment proves that the turbo is just the right size. By chance (see below) I discovered that it keeps stable boost to up to 1.1 bar at least (probably more, I don't dare to try), what else do I need? A bigger IC for sure, as I can see this one is giving up at these kind of loads. At 1-1.1 bar the car is difficult to control even on 3rd uphill, why would I need more power?
On a more serious note top work. It would be good if you had a G-Tech or similar to see what kind of performance improvements you're getting.
G-Tech was on my shopping list a while back, but it is simply too expensive. I was thinking of just going and doing a couple of dyno pulls. But first, I need to sort out some final touches, yesterday I discovered a mechanical fault - high boost pressures blow air through the TB-cap gasket. After I temporarily fixed that, what used to be my boost level 1.0 bar became 1.1 bar. So this part of the EBC table still needs checking after corrections. But performance wise I can say with all certainty that the 1 bar map makes a huge improvement over 0.8 bar.
You have the same VA style IC i have don't you woj?? I was messing about the other day and noticed my spare PuntoGT IC has bigger in/oulets on it (51mm). This means in turn that my old cinq turbo ( i knew nothing back then
) had 51mm boost pipes not 38mm like i have at the mo. That car ran 1.7bar of boost with no apparent problems (i.e. it never broke down or anything, had nothing in the way of wideband or data logging to look over but car never had running issues). Anyway, my point being the PGT IC is clearly not the best IC in the world but seems to perform better than the VA one and can be picked up for next to nothing so perhaps try one of them, but you will need some reducers (or biiger boost pipes :devil: ).
I'm guessing this is down to the fact you have a ball bearing turbo which has largely increased its efficiency. Just imagine what a bigger one could do.
Quick someone call a Doctor Woj has finally lost his marbles...
You can get basic G-techs for around the cost of 2 Dyno pulls, you can get a fairly accurate app on your phone for the price of a few Jaffa Cakes.
On the contrary, I think I lost it the first time when I decided to buy this car, the second time when I decided to by the 1.2 engine with the turbo intention. Now I think I am reaching the point of sanity where I start to wonder why am I not driving a "normal" car and why am I spending so much money and energy on something that is going to be scraped sooner or later anyhow. I guess I am aging and stuff
Now I think I am reaching the point of sanity where I start to wonder why am I not driving a "normal" car and why am I spending so much money and energy on something that is going to be scraped sooner or later anyhow. I guess I am aging and stuff
Meh, I feel like that some days too but it will pass.
The thing is there is just something about small Fiats. Some people completely don't understand it, but some of us do. I went to do some work at a very wealthy chaps place last week. He had a garage full of prestigious cars, E Types, Ferraris, Lambo's, R8, Maserati, Aston, Bentley and at the back in the corner was a Fiat 500. Not a cento granted but still a small Fiat.
I may not always even own a cento but I'll always have a small Fiat. As for the cost, it's a hobby just like golf, mountain biking, skiing. They all cost money and you rarely if ever get it back. It's the enjoyment that matters. As for your project, it's not just an accumulation of bolt on parts. Yours in particular shows a lot of ingenuity, thought and skill. I'm sure its also taught you a hell of a lot. Anyone can buy a "turbo kit" what you have achieved is so much more. It may not be something that your average chap off the street appreciates, but that's only because only minority actually understand what you've achieved and appreciate how you've achieved it. I wouldn't trade the knowledge gained from any of my projects for the money they cost, I hope you wouldn't either.
Little Fiats FTW.
:yeahthat:
This project is one of my fave's - I love your approach to things, totally your own way of doing stuff, none of this just copying the general consensus on how something is done. There are many cento's out there but yours is definitely one of a kind. All the best part for me is its no show car, its built to drive and use and play with. And somehow you have done all this while using it as your main car. And the fact that you take the time to share your findings with the rest of us.
I take my hat off to you sir.
This project is one of my fave's - I love your approach to things, totally your own way of doing stuff, none of this just copying the general consensus on how something is done. There are many cento's out there but yours is definitely one of a kind. All the best part for me is its no show car, its built to drive and use and play with. And somehow you have done all this while using it as your main car. And the fact that you take the time to share your findings with the rest of us.
I take my hat off to you sir.
The wheather got better, I started liking my car more The EBC project is finalised (ECU tuned in, sealed and in the car for good), the next thing on the menu is something I need your help with. It is my breather system, in essence it sucks (as in it is not good), and I need something that will do the trick. What I have now is home made oil catch tank (that I want to get rid of).
The requirements:
- no oil catch tank or anything else that I need to empty or worry about checking
- because of MOT regulations and similar nonsense it needs to be a closed system
- should take as little space as possible
I was thinking about adapting an oil separator from another car (preferably something popular I would easily hunt down on my local scrappy). I am guessing that putting the fire defender "christmas tree" in the breather pipe and otherwise just connecting it to the intake before the turbo will not do the trick...?
The EBC project is finalised (ECU tuned in, sealed and in the car for good), the next thing on the menu is something I need your help with. It is my breather system, in essence it sucks (as in it is not good), and I need something that will do the trick. What I have now is home made oil catch tank (that I want to get rid of).The requirements:
- no oil catch tank or anything else that I need to empty or worry about checking
- because of MOT regulations and similar nonsense it needs to be a closed system
- should take as little space as possible
I was thinking about adapting an oil separator from another car (preferably something popular I would easily hunt down on my local scrappy). I am guessing that putting the fire defender "christmas tree" in the breather pipe and otherwise just connecting it to the intake before the turbo will not do the trick...?
I'll be interested to see what you come up with, just using a packed can and breather filter myself at the moment. No way I was pumping oil back into the inlet. :yuck:
I guess the seperator just dumps the oil back into the sump.
I guess the seperator just dumps the oil back into the sump.
that would work yeah, if the catch tank is baffled it will work very well but that doesn't meet to set criteria.. Not seen one of these seperators woj speaks of, you got a link fella?
I know just sticking it back into the inlet isn't perfect but mines been like that for 40k miles and is still fine, and my TB looks brand new still, nice and clean and shiny - even without a catch tank.
I know just sticking it back into the inlet isn't perfect but mines been like that for 40k miles and is still fine, and my TB looks brand new still, nice and clean and shiny - even without a catch tank.
Doing this would most likely pressurize the sump, also you really don't want to be interfering with the turbo return. It might work with seperate plumbing if you have a breather on the sump. The separator would be ideal in theory, oil to the sump, air to the inlet. Possibly something used on modern cars?? I haven't looked I'll let Professor Woj do the hard work on this one, I'm sure he'll come up with an ideal solution.
Also you don't want to retain the catch tank or it will still fill up with oil and need emptying, otherwise it will dump large quantities of oil when it's over full.
Also you don't want to retain the catch tank or it will still fill up with oil and need emptying, otherwise it will dump large quantities of oil when it's over full.
I'm pretty sure J333EVO added extra breather for the sump on one of his old turbo builds, or more than one. If you go searching though one of the threads (the yellow turbo cinq) was started by foxyemx (his mrs, it was her car). Fingers has his old imola if it was that one, i did a quick search but couldn't find it quickly and its late and i'm tired and other such excuses.
As i said before though, i know its not ideal in any shape or form but both the turbos i've had have just had a pipe from the breather to the inlet - the cinq ran 1.8bar of boost as well and that engine seemed invincible (i was younger and more invincible back then).
As i said before though, i know its not ideal in any shape or form but both the turbos i've had have just had a pipe from the breather to the inlet - the cinq ran 1.8bar of boost as well and that engine seemed invincible (i was younger and more invincible back then).
A direct pipe from the breather to the inlet is a no go, in winter in makes an oil catch tank out of the intercooler. Oil catch tank is a no go, because forgetting to empty it goes disastrous (happened to me this winter), not to mention it is a filthy job.
So I am roughly left with the idea of an oil separator. From what I learned so far one type involves a cone shaped structure that makes the oil condense and drip back to the breather hole (alternatively sump, but it can be solved with just the breather hole), and the gases escape through an outlet and can be routed back to the inlet. Somewhere mid this page you can find a picture of how this works in BMW-s, but this system is way too complex for me and too integrated. T-jets have a similar thing, one that even has a membrane (a check valve I believe) that routes the gases straight to the inlet manifold on vacuum, and to the inlet pipe on boost. In t-jet the device is external to the cam cover, and I was seriously thinking about getting one and adapting it, my worry though is that it is too tall and would not fit under the bonnet (it has to be vertical and above the breather outlet). I will get you the picture and explanation of the t-jet contraption later on today (it resides in a pdf I have at home).
There are also oil separators that work with some kind of an internal filter, but this one needs to be replaced from time to time, hence does not meet my specs.
So I am roughly left with the idea of an oil separator. From what I learned so far one type involves a cone shaped structure that makes the oil condense and drip back to the breather hole (alternatively sump, but it can be solved with just the breather hole), and the gases escape through an outlet and can be routed back to the inlet. Somewhere mid this page you can find a picture of how this works in BMW-s, but this system is way too complex for me and too integrated. T-jets have a similar thing, one that even has a membrane (a check valve I believe) that routes the gases straight to the inlet manifold on vacuum, and to the inlet pipe on boost. In t-jet the device is external to the cam cover, and I was seriously thinking about getting one and adapting it, my worry though is that it is too tall and would not fit under the bonnet (it has to be vertical and above the breather outlet). I will get you the picture and explanation of the t-jet contraption later on today (it resides in a pdf I have at home).
There are also oil separators that work with some kind of an internal filter, but this one needs to be replaced from time to time, hence does not meet my specs.
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The re-breather on the top of the t-jet engine is pretty flat, shouldn't take up alot of room under a cinq bonnet. Ill take a pic later?
