Technical Woj's turbo project

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Technical Woj's turbo project

Placing the dyno graphs here, as I think they more belong here than in the other thread.

What I am mostly curious about is the dip right after the torque climb, it then climbs back again. Have not seen it on other turbo Cinqs. Had the same thing with the 866 cam. It is not something you feel when you drive and does not influence the total power output. One thing to note is that the dyno equipement is very precise, maybe that has some relevance.
 

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Dunno but that's still a really nice curve. :D

Actually, since I posted the pics I came up with two theories.

One, when the boost kicks fully in this is also the moment when the WG opens. Knowing the dyno equipment is very sensitive it might actaully see it. WG control is entirely manual, so there is no smoothing in opening and that might be the result.

Second, and less likely, the dip also overlaps with the fuel going down to the target level for the boost. It is at this moment that it goes below AFR 12.5 that is believed to be power-optimal, perhaps it looses its breath for a moment there too...

Or both of course :)
 
what AFR does yours idle at woj just outta interest, assuming you have wideband gauge fitted - mine seems to run quite rich nearly all the time - being as i'm using mf2 and stock ecu there is very little i can do other than turn fuel pressure down to bring AFR down during off boost conditions but if i do that i get the AFR going lean when i first put my foot down at low speeds during spool up, is that bad? If i turn it down a little more i can get 14.3-14.5 idle but gauge dips to high 15s on initial pickup before mf2 starts chucking fuel in as well at 2k rpm. Set like this it only ever does this little dip at slow speeds, in traffic and pulling away from standstill etc - on the move with higher revs its fine.

Openly admit i'm not exactly sure whats too rich/lean for idle or whether small periods of lean is really bad or not, just that 14.7 is stoich. The vid below is of the car idling at operating temp (ignore temp gauge its not connected), i get about them same at constant speeds on the flat and around low 11 on full boost. Now from my limited knowledge that sounds safe but if you look at my spark plugs (no pics sorry) they do look all sooty like the car is running to rich.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErfIN3cFmxU&feature=youtu.be

As a side note, reading through the material from Van Aaken it states they fitted a chip that retards timing for boost. I am right in thinking that this can only mean with it being in a oem ecu that my car has retarded ignition at all times and that in turn would make it rich when not on boost?
 
Small dips in AFR on sudden accelerator press are normal, but this should last in the range of a second - two. The ECUs have routines and corrections for that, but it seems to me that the ECU is slow to react anyhow, causing a reverse dip soon after. That is, you press it, fuel goes quite lean then very rich, then stablises. Especially at light loads. However, if you are already at a considerable load, but not yet boosting, the AFR should be already rich, then you may get a "lean" dip, but it would still be within a rich range. I will try to dig out my logs from wideband, you will see.

The retarded chip - I would assume the retardation is only at ECU's Wide Open Throttle conditions. So that it only kicks in when you are nearing or entering boost. Otherwise, and putting AFR aside, you would get a very sluggish car off-boost. On a decompressed engine you actually want the opposite off-bost - ignition advance. Hence in my personal opinion the whole MF2 setup is just crap.

AFR at idle: what you are saying tells me you are running with a O2 sensor disconnected? My AFR at idle is by the book, oscillates around 14.7, and so it is as long as the load is light, only the characteristics / amplitude of oscillation changes, this is done on purpose by the ECU (in some load ranges it goes very wildly 14.0 - 15.3). As soon as the load increases open loop kicks in and AFR becomes what I tuned it be. Basically a clean stock-like behaviour that took me a long time to work out. The very exact value at idle in my case also depends on which/what lambda sensor I use. The narrow band lambda that died not so long ago produced 14.7 with the tendency to go above that (14.6-15.0). Now I run on the emulated signal from the wide-band module and that gives 14.7 with the tendency to go more below (14.5-14.8). This has to do with the reaction times of the hardware which are different in the two cases.

EDIT: See the attached pic for the AFR dip. Mind you, this happens in a very short time, something I do not see on the gauge display.
 

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mmm, i would say my car is very sluggish off boost compared to my old one (similar spec) bar the chip really. But it AFR behaves exactly as you describe, momentary dip towards lean when press pedal and then sorts itself out and then a moment of richer before full lean on overrun. It just runs on the richer than it should.. And yes correct, crap setup as i said before all i can do is turn primary injector pressure down to adjust that rich idle. I will have a fiddle when my new belts arrive and i can run the car again.

Oh btw, i'm running emulated narrowband from my innovate lc1 to the ecu, and the other output to the gauge.
 
The dip is supposed to be tuned out with tip in/ acceleration enrichment. You don't have this on an MF2 so you are having to compensate with an overly rich mixture. I'm not even sure of the standard ecu's capabilities on this. On an old school carb you'd have a little squirter pump to do this job. Certainly with the standard ecu map running alongside the MF2 the enrichment levels for an instant poke on the throttle will be miles out.

The narrow band outputs of wideband gauges are known to be inferior to a proper narrow band sensor. Interesting to see your both using them with some success.

As Woj said about your ECU Blu, I'm sure VAD would have tweeked key points in the ignition map not just retarded the whole thing. There's no reason why they couldn't have advanced it lower down to compensate for the lower compression. Seems they didn't though...
 
The dip is supposed to be tuned out with tip in/ acceleration enrichment. You don't have this on an MF2 so you are having to compensate with an overly rich mixture. I'm not even sure of the standard ecu's capabilities on this. On an old school carb you'd have a little squirter pump to do this job. Certainly with the standard ecu map running alongside the MF2 the enrichment levels for an instant poke on the throttle will be miles out.

The stock ECU has this capability. The correction is over the delta in TPS readings, later weigthed over the current RPM and load. But, no matter how accurate the calculation is it is usually slightly too late, the extra air is already in the engine before the correction fully kicks in. I tried playing around with this correction, all I achieved was getting bigger richness dips after the lean dip, but I could never get rid of the lean dip. There is a similar correction to get rid of the richness dips on deceleration, and this correction is also sluggish.

Anyhow, for 16F ECU the stock correction should still work even for a turbo setup, because, well, it is based on TPS readings. Had it been over MAP deltas (like it is in the 16V IAW ECU, the 18FD) it would not work, because ECU is then "blind" on boost.

The narrow band outputs of wideband gauges are known to be inferior to a proper narrow band sensor. Interesting to see your both using them with some success.

I have heard this too, and that's why I mounted the narrow band. But since it died I had no option, but to hook up the signal from WB. Not only it works, for idle at least (I do not observe my readings otherwise, I am past that) it gives a much smoother AFR. But, our IAWs are old ECUs, they are very forgiving when it comes to the quality of the lambda signal. I am not sure how would this work on a more modern ECU.
 
The stock ECU has this capability. The correction is over the delta in TPS readings, later weigthed over the current RPM and load. But, no matter how accurate the calculation is it is usually slightly too late, the extra air is already in the engine before the correction fully kicks in. I tried playing around with this correction, all I achieved was getting bigger richness dips after the lean dip, but I could never get rid of the lean dip. There is a similar correction to get rid of the richness dips on deceleration, and this correction is also sluggish.

So it certainly has the ability and of course you will always get a small dip due to the hardware limitations. I read a good explanation of this somewhere, just can't remember where.

Anyhow, for 16F ECU the stock correction should still work even for a turbo setup, because, well, it is based on TPS readings.

OK but all after market ECU systems allow you to adjust the enrichment limit and sustain rate. This will be set for a 1.1 naturally aspirated engine not a turbo. The enrichment limit may not be adequate, hence the need for overly rich fuel compensation. Also You can map fuel enrichment on the aftermarket system just like you would say ignition. The whole enrichment map on the original un-altered ECU is highly unlikely to be optimal for a turbocharged engine. So it may work but I can't see it working properly. This is something that can't be calculated easily and is usually set by trial and error, especially with a turbocharged system.

I have heard this too, and that's why I mounted the narrow band. But since it died I had no option, but to hook up the signal from WB. Not only it works, for idle at least (I do not observe my readings otherwise, I am past that) it gives a much smoother AFR. But, our IAWs are old ECUs, they are very forgiving when it comes to the quality of the lambda signal. I am not sure how would this work on a more modern ECU.

I only know this from reading too, I won't be implementing NB because I'd have to do away with my map selection switch. From what I understand though the narrow band sensor technology although has no range is far more accurate around stoich with superior switching.
 
So who wants to guess what I am up to? Specifically I mean... :D
 

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Yes and no, getting it more stable is the purpose. But this is the obvious part. But I still want you to guess more specifically what I am up to :D
 
You are getting warm, this is what happens on my small red table. Tell me what I am doing...
 

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No, that's already done - the LCD and contraption on the upper part of the picture is a portable diagnostics interface/tester. Here only used to watch what the ECU is doing. It has something strictly to do with the boost valve. C'mon guys it so obvious...
 
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