I am old school and will continue to do what has worked for me since 1969 until retirement rather than listen to TV experts
Technical What type of exhaust fastener is this?
- Thread starter earthman
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Technical What type of exhaust fastener is this?
I hope you’ve got the right gasket for the exhaust joint before you change it, or you’ll have leaks no matter how tight you do the bolts.
By the time you need to take it apart again it will be going in the bin as it will be beyond repair due to rust
Just look at the original bolts
Mike1alike
Established member
It's not welded in, it's one with a square inside the head.
I used a regular M8 hex headed screw, a spring washer, a longer nut and copper grease.
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That was supposed to say gasket
I have a tin of the stuff too and use it a fair bit but am willing to try something new, advancements, new discoveries may present something better basically. I've tried cera tec brake lube for example and find that works better on keeping brake pads free, I now prefer to use that over copperslip. I know what you mean about these TV experts though, most have no integrity and will sell out when money is offered,....I had to laugh when Mike Brewer started to push those useless fuel pellets.I am old school and will continue to do what has worked for me since 1969 until retirement rather than listen to TV experts
Yes, I bought that gasket too.
All I can see is a round flat head, there may well be a square hole behind it. That's not something that I've seen used on an exhaust system before.
The Panda Nut
Nutty about Pandas Infected by Panda virus and OPD
I can attest to copper grease being unsuitable for some parts of brakes. NEVER on sliders. Its always worked on everything else though. I use a Bosch brake grease on slider pins and this unseized the brakes on my Panda 100 which I did with copper slip. I think it was just too thick for the sliders. If copper grease gets on the pads Im not sure it will ever come off. I note Koalar says fit brakes back clean and dry and hes never had a problem doing this. In the main I think he is right. I always used to do this. The fine dust and muck I have seen on brakes certainly wouldnt cause seizure, but mixed with copper grease it could. I use a little copper grease on the backs of pads to prevent squealing, and some Aluminium based 'grease' on retaining pins that can rust. The latter dries and isnt really grease it seems. It does stop corrosion. Im with Bugsymike on copper grease on general stuff and on the hub spiggots. Our latest car is a 2016 Easy. I removed the wheels to ensiure they come off OK and also that the nuts are not over tight for daughter to undo. 3 of the 4 needed a fair bit of persuasion to let go. Nice to see they were correctly torqued. Oddly No4 had been greased so came off OK. Still delighted with this car it has more toys than our 2014 lounge and feels and drives like new. Discs and pads are virtually unworn. I love the front silencer too its so much quieter than the cars with back boxes. I want the same exhaust on the 2014 car now, but cant find one. Maybe its just the vast size of this front mounted silencer.
The Panda Nut
Nutty about Pandas Infected by Panda virus and OPD
Thats a job for a dremmel and a box of micro cutting discs. Always works for me.
Those are my findings too, on my motorcycle brakes, copper slip seems to hold all the road crud and is bugger to clean off, I've always used very little of the stuff around the brake area especially, since I switched to the brake lube, no such problems.
Aye, sump doesn't look too healthy but I've just seen earthman says he's got a new one to fit - which is why he wants to undo this joint of course! Have you done one before earthman? If not then be prepared for a bit of a fight if the one still on the vehicle is original factory fitment as the gasket cement is pretty tenacious! When fitting the new one don't be tempted to use too much sealant - of course you do need to use "enough" - the problem with using too much is the surplus will get squeezed out from between the joining faces and some may break away, fall into the sump and get sucked into the oil pickup filter mesh. this will reduce, or possibly block, the oil supply to the rest of the engine with predictably expensive ramifications!
My boy's Punto -2012 1.4 8 valve - had this type of joint in this position on it's exhaust. The Pandas have a "sleeved, push fit" type joint here with a side clamp round it. - well ours does anyway?
I was a great believer in Copper grease and still use it for "general" purposes (Copa Slip being my favourite - I like Aluslip too for use where aluminium components are used) However, following all the "hoo Ha" about copper grease corrupting ABS signals - a problem I never experienced despite using it for years on many many different makes of vehicle - I decided I should join the recommendation to replace it with a ceramic based grease for brake work. Looked on line and bought this:
It seemed to work but it's quite thin and a bit "runny" and I noticed there didn't seem to be much evidence of it when doing the next service maybe a year later. So, having been used to the copa slip being still much in evidence even a couple of years later I asked one of my favourite wee local garages what they use and they, after confirming that copper greases should not now be used on brakes, recommended this stuff:
Which just happens to be what my local SRS Motor Factors have on the shelf. Maybe that's why he uses it? Anyway, it's much more the consistency of the copper grease and I'm much happier with it, it's pretty much replaced copper grease when I'm doing brakes. I use silicon grease on slider pins because they often have rubber parts which many other greases will attack and degrade.
Now to get to the main point of these ramblings. Ceramic grease works splendidly as an antiseize on stuff like exhaust fittings, such as we're discussing here. I am using up the silver hook in this way. You'll find the heat burns off the "greasy" part of the grease and leaves the ceramic part behind to protect the threads. The ceramic residue seems not to be "slippy" - as grease is "slippy" - and therefore seems not to cause these fixings to slacken in use but leaves a white protective residue behind which greatly cuts down on the rate of rusting.
Having said all that, I've now had the time to research brake greases in more depth and once I've used up the Granville product I'll be buying a tin Permatex, this stuff: https://www.midland-mustangs.co.uk/shop/permatex-24125. It's suitable for use on the back of pads and other palces, as an antisqueel, but also, because it's a synthetic formulation and not derived from a petroleum source, it is suitable for use on slider pins etc too. (doesn't attack rubber) It is a wee bit expensive but one tin will last me just about for ever just doing the family cars.
My boy's Punto front flange bolts looked exactly like those in the OP's picture - you really wouldn't think that it had been a nut on a threaded fixing! - I noticed that the gasket was keeping the two halves of the flanges slightly apart so I used a hacksaw with an 18tpi blue blade to saw down into the gap and through the bolt. This, of course, damaged the gasket, but I was fitting a new one anyway. Then all that had to be done was drill out the wee bit of stud left. I've had varying success trying to drill out bolts like this - I think they work harden with the heat and vibration - and, over the years, I've broken quite a number of drills in the attempts. Cobalt drills, although expensive, seem to work quite well on this sort of job. When assembling with the new exhaust pipe just use a nut and bolt with an all steel locking nut if available but I've used a spring washer and standard nut many times, as recommended by Mike above, a nylock nut is of no advantage as the system gets hot enough to melt and burn the nylon which turns the nut into simply a standard nut.
In many years of doing brakes, never had any issue of copper grease on sliders or back of pads.
Of course you'll modify the torque value when you add copper grease to a thread as it's now a lubricated thread rather than dry thread
For the exhaust flange, jsut drill it out and bolt it with stainless nut and bolt setup, easier in future. I'd probably put a spring washer on it, but that's just me.
As for "TV experts", I'd have more faith in what Edd China says that most on the internet.
Of course you'll modify the torque value when you add copper grease to a thread as it's now a lubricated thread rather than dry thread
For the exhaust flange, jsut drill it out and bolt it with stainless nut and bolt setup, easier in future. I'd probably put a spring washer on it, but that's just me.
As for "TV experts", I'd have more faith in what Edd China says that most on the internet.
Same here, never known a fault caused by copper grease. However it does get quite "claggy" when old and I've run into quite a number of calipers on newer cars - my Ibiza and now the Scala, just to name two - where the slider pins are in rubber bushing not directly in a drilling in the metal of the caliper also I've always thought it's not ideal where dust excluding bellows are involved, even if the pin itself is sliding in a metal hole. I don't lubricate the threads but I do give them a light application of blue thread locker, more to seal the threads against water ingress than to actually lock them in place. I actually don't usually use a torque wrench on caliper pins, although I would on caliper carrier bolts, but then I've been doing this for so long I couldn't tell you how many I must have tightened so consider myself to have "the feel".In many years of doing brakes, never had any issue of copper grease on sliders or back of pads.
Of course you'll modify the torque value when you add copper grease to a thread as it's now a lubricated thread rather than dry thread
For the exhaust flange, jsut drill it out and bolt it with stainless nut and bolt setup, easier in future. I'd probably put a spring washer on it, but that's just me.
As for "TV experts", I'd have more faith in what Edd China says that most on the internet.
Exhaust flange with a nut and bolt, hell yes and much simpler to deal with if it needs removed again later. Like you I like to reassure myself with a spring washer, but, thinking about it, the heat probably anneals the spring out of it so it's probably just to set my mind at ease - like checking the front door is locked 3 times before going to bed?
TV experts? an invariably interesting "entertainment", but sometimes I wonder? For instance, on our Fiats (or any other engine with a water pump in the drive train) It's very unlikely I'd ever be renewing just the belt on it's own, and, I'd always do the idler/tensioning pulley even in the unlikely event I wasn't doing the water pump. So it was with great interest that I watched Fuzz's way of slicing the belt in half along it's length and removing the front half of the belt. The position of the pulleys is being retained by the half of the belt still on the engine so you can now slip the new belt over the front of the pulleys before cutting the back half of the old belt away and sliding the new belt fully onto the pulleys. Problem with this method is if something slips you've no reference marks to fall back on and changing a water pump? well it's going to be pretty hard. I'd rather tippex the pulleys if it were me. The TV programs make good viewing though, sure beats East Enders any day of the week!
I've not removed the sump on one of these before, I expect it to be stuck solid so I've made a right angled hook/chisel wedge attachment for my slide hammer, the idea is to try and get this tool inbetween the lip of the sump and old sealant.
I think that you are right about such bolts becoming hardened, I've dabbled with knife making and heat treated O1 steel for example, I purchased a small carbide drill bit just to be able to drill a hole in a hardened blade, nothing else would touch it. These are expensive, very hard but brittle so you have to be careful, they can snap in two I know. I've just been looking at a 19pc cobalt set of drills for £26.80 funny enough, they state 5% cobalt, not sure how good they may or may not be at that price to be honest.
Chunkynutz87
New member
Did you have any success as I'm now in the same position...
They didn't
There no such thing as exhaust grade bolts
Only special shape's or design's for various exhausts
Mots manufactures fit standard grade 8 bolts
Some may use copper plated or another finish for corrosion resistance but they are still normal bolts
For people that first saw this in the 169 section their car has a pipe over pipe fitting, and you can easily just cut the clamp off, I see this post is now moved to the correct post 2012 section
The original posters problem is a quick job with the correct tools
You can properly still use the stud, the threads are protected from rusting by the nut, even though it's nasty on the nut
Getting this part out
Not as easy, and a large percentage of the time unnecessary, this part will be generic and with the sizes a replacement found, I wouldn't bother and just use a nut and bolt
If you are going to drill, by hand, you need a split point drill, slow speed and some lubricant, oil is fine
The drill on the left will make drilling by hand much easier
The original posters problem is a quick job with the correct tools
You can properly still use the stud, the threads are protected from rusting by the nut, even though it's nasty on the nut
Getting this part out
Not as easy, and a large percentage of the time unnecessary, this part will be generic and with the sizes a replacement found, I wouldn't bother and just use a nut and bolt
If you are going to drill, by hand, you need a split point drill, slow speed and some lubricant, oil is fine
The drill on the left will make drilling by hand much easier
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Well they did in a way,.....the above said properties of a bolt is what I were referring to.
Yes, I used a small cutting disk on a dremel, carefully cut a slot into the side of what was once a nut, used a cold chisel and lightly tap to undo,...they just broke away/fell off to be honest.
