Technical Weird oil drain issue

[Jodsclass]

Hi Everyone. This is long, so feel free to ignore.

I decided to service the 500 (2017 1.2) on Wednesday. This car is new to me this year, so it was about time it had new, decent oil & filters. Went with Castrol Edge as always used Magnatec on the panda & this looked like a better prospect for a newer engine. I've been servicing our 1.2 litre panda for over a decade and 100k miles, so this is pretty routine for me now.

Took the car for a run to get it nice & warm, parked it up at home on ramps and went to remove the sump plug. The previous garage seemed to have tightened it up so much, it just wouldn't budge. It took over an hour & in the end a very long torque wrench to get enough leverage to get it free. I let the oil run out into a pan and removed the filter. Popped inside for a coffee and to let as much drain out as possible.

I then went back outside, cleaned the oil filter housing, oiled the seal and put on the new filter. Fastened up the sump plug, removed the oil pan and rolled it backwards off the ramps, obviously without turning the engine on. By now, the block had cooled nicely, so I started adding oil. I know these take 2.8 litres in total, with 300 ml normally for the filter and 2.5 litre for the rest of then engine. I always measure out a full 2.8 litres, knowing I probably won't need it all, but at least I know the exact amount it can theoretically take. With the panda, I normally find that 2.6 litres gets it just below the max mark on the stick, so some old oil must remain present in some parts of the engine. I added around 2.5–2.6 litres and checked the stick, it was absolutely caked in oil. Tried to get a decent read, but not a chance. I left it for a few hours to settle & checked again, still oil everywhere. I started the car and let it warm up and circulate the oil. Turned it off, let it cool & checked again, still way over the top of the dip stick.

I decided to get back underneath the car & drain some off. Never easy, but I’ve done it before with a gloved hand & some well-timed sump plug easing, letting it run out slowly before screwing back in finger tight and then cleaning up. I drained off 380ml of oil into a measuring jug. Lowered the car again, waited a little while & took a reading. It was now nearly at maximum on the dipstick.

By my calculations, with the removal of some oil, I’ve only put 2.2 litres of new oil into the car. Where the heck has the other 500-600ml of old oil hidden in this engine where it doesn't in my pandas? I’ve been running around for a few days, carrying oil in the car & checking periodically, and the level is still unmoved at just below maximum.

This has baffled me, as I’ve never experienced it before & the engine is less than 40k. Anyone had a similar experience?

Also, while I'm at it, can anyone link me to the correct leads/unit for multiscan somewhere online, so I can reset the service indicator.

Honestly, I'm glad I drained it off, because it would have been running with at least 300ml too much oil in there.

 

[portland_bill]

My thoughts are:

Reduced capacity in later engines? Have you still got the Panda, if so, measure the depth of the sump. Should be the same. If shallower, will obviously take less oil, and be more critical to keep topped up. What does handbook say?

Poor servicing previously, causing sludge build-up in the sump. Was old oil very dirty? (Although could have been changed before sale to mask issues.) With dipstick out, insert a long probe, to touch the bottom of the sump, see what, if anything gets stuck onto the end. A straightened out wire coat hanger will work.

If lots of goo is found, drain oil, pour paraffin, or engine degreaser into the dipstick hole, maybe 1-1.5l. Leave to do its stuff, then drain. Refill with fresh oil, change at half normal interval. Resist flushing oil, just let normal oil detergents soften and dissolve it over time.

For MES: https://www.gendan.co.uk/category_161.html

 

[Jodsclass]

Handbook, says the same as the panda, 2.5l without filter and 2.8 with.

The old oil was quite dirty, but definitely nothing crazy. I’ve got the full service history & it's been serviced every year. The first three services even included engine flush before new oil. It is a weird one for sure. I'll certainly have to find something to probe down into the sump, but I didn't see anything strange in the oil I removed, it was actually fairly clean, just darkened as you would expect. I have invoices for the first three services & stamps in the handbook thereafter. It had a motor oil flush done every year up until April 2020 and 21k miles from new.

 

[varesecrazy]

@Jodsclass

The one thing that Could be fooling you..
An incorrect Dip stick (if its over length.. It will "Strike Oil" Prematurely)

 

[Jodsclass]

@Jodsclass

The one thing that Could be fooling you..
An incorrect Dip stick (if its over length.. It will "Strike Oil" Prematurely)

How would someone begin to rule this out? Can anyone tell me how long their dipstick is on their 1.2? I no longer have the panda to compare them.

 

[varesecrazy]

I have 2 x LegoTeknic Twinair outside.. So of no help this weekend

Obviously a Very common motor..
So somebody can measure it

(we do periodically have people with Wrong dipsticks on here)

What colour is your Handle..? My 2018 500 is RED

Attempting to apply logic:

If your oil light is going out And staying out.. You can assume the level IS NOT LOW

 

[Jodsclass]

Thanks

Mine is also red. Yeah, oil light is out & runs fine. I had a look through the oil filler and the head on this car is spotless & fresh, just your usual residue of fresh oil. It doesn't look or feel like it has been mistreated at all, and I've had it this year from 29k miles up until 37k miles. It had a service just before I bought it in March. I’ve just been out and put another 100ml in. Still not quite at the maximum mark but very close. By my reckoning, I’ve now got around 2.3-2.4 litres of new oil in there.

 

[varesecrazy]

A little light reading..

Low oil | FIAT 500 (2007+)

Bought my 1.2 in September last year - apparently serviced - and got round to doing this years service today. I started with the oil...drained 1.5 litres out... Then 2.6 litres to fill! Something tells me they didn't service it before i bought it and its been low on oil for a while... Car...

www.fiatforum.com

And

Grande Punto 2009 GP 1.4 16v Dipstick | FIAT Grande Punto

Hi all, recently picked up a Grande Punto GP model. When getting it from the garage it didn’t have a dipstick, I have read it’s common for them to snap. They have replaced it, but I have also read that there are varying lengths of dipstick. When checking the oil it seems to be very low, but...

www.fiatforum.com

 

[Jodsclass]

A little light reading..

Low oil | FIAT 500 (2007+)

Bought my 1.2 in September last year - apparently serviced - and got round to doing this years service today. I started with the oil...drained 1.5 litres out... Then 2.6 litres to fill! Something tells me they didn't service it before i bought it and its been low on oil for a while... Car...

www.fiatforum.com

Had a read through that. I check the oil probably every three weeks & before any longer journeys. Always kept it topped up to max, and this has been the case for the 7 months I’ve owned this car.

 

[varesecrazy]

Had a read through that. I check the oil probably every three weeks & before any longer journeys. Always kept it topped up to max, and this has been the case for the 7 months I’ve owned this car.

So this hasn't raised any issues for half a year..?

Probably all good then!

 

[Jodsclass]

So this hasn't raised any issues for half a year..?

Probably all good then!

I'll just keep checking & topping up. To be fair, I’ve only needed to do a tiny top-up in that 7 months & we've done a lot of miles due to a family issue, back & forth to Scotland. No issues at all, it has performed beautifully. I’ve no doubt as it settles down, it will take a few top-ups, perhaps a few little air pockets somewhere. I'll keep a track of how much goes in.

I'm driving to Bristol airport next week from Cornwall to go on holiday, so I'll check it when I land back after that run as well and see where we are. Probably just easier to keep the extra litre of oil in the car for now for top-ups. I do remember I always struggled to get a full 2.8 in the panda, it was always closer to 2.6. Could be the very slight angle our driveway is laid on for drainage & where the dipstick enters the sump.

 

[John202020]

Our old Mazda can use up to a litre a month so it's really important to check it, however it doesn't burn it or leak its a mystery always been this way since 6 years old and normal it's said

 

[portland_bill]

Dipsticks are the same 500 & Panda. But, aircon or non-aircon are different. I have an aircon Panda, I'll measure it tomorrow. No idea if non-aircon is longer or shorter, but the aircon one has to pass the aircon pump, so is routed differently.

 

[varesecrazy]

Dipsticks are the same 500 & Panda. But, aircon or non-aircon are different. I have an aircon Panda, I'll measure it tomorrow. No idea if non-aircon is longer or shorter, but the aircon one has to pass the aircon pump, so is routed differently.

I hadn't considered that..

But guessing most VVT 500 motors will be "aircon equipped",
it's the Dashboard arrangement that has the options

Getting a set of measurements will be good to compare the various options
(Sounds like the OP isn't in any rush)

 

[Jodsclass]

Certainly, if we do get the measurements, I'm sure that would help others rule this out in the future too. I see for other makes, people measure from the top (so on ours just below the red plastic handle where the spring dipstick part actually starts) to the max mark and again from the top to the min mark. Mine is an aircon VVT 1.2.

Like I say, I've been topping up based on this dipstick for 8k miles without issue, so as long as I keep it maxed, we can wait to collect various lengths for various models.

 

[portland_bill]

OK, here we go.
As you said, correct place to measure from is the base of the red handle, as that sits on the top of the tube. From the main base, not the little ledge that centres it in the tube.

Distance to Max, is 435mm
Distance to Min, is 459mm

Sorry about the poor pics, I've never taken a good photo.

 

[The Panda Nut]

On the ramps, when draining the oil? I think thats your trouble. The sump was not level and couldn't drain. On the flat all the oil will come out. I find I have to raise the front about 2cm to get rid of the last drops, but do this by hand. Raised up it would definitely not all drain and the voulume you refer to sounds just about what I would expect.

 

[portland_bill]

On the ramps, when draining the oil? I think thats your trouble. The sump was not level and couldn't drain. On the flat all the oil will come out. I find I have to raise the front about 2cm to get rid of the last drops, but do this by hand. Raised up it would definitely not all drain and the voulume you refer to sounds just about what I would expect.

My sump plug is at the back, so with the front wheels on ramps, that'd help it drain.
With the dipstick into the sump at the rear, a nose-up stance will give a slightly higher reading. If leaning to the right, that'll raise the apparent level too. I wonder if facing uphill, and leaning right, could give a whole litre difference?

 

[Jodsclass]

Thanks for taking the time @portland_bill - they are really helpful.

I've just measured my own dip stick on the 500 1.2 VVT from 2017. Mine is appearing almost identical. To the max line is 435mm and to the min line we have 456mm, so accounting for any discrepancies in measuring, id say they are identical & we have the same dip stick. Which rules that out.

With regards draining it on ramps, I don't mean a professional car lift, I mean the at home type, which does leave the sump plug at probably its lowest point there or thereabouts.

On a side note, I mentioned my driveway is on a slope. Our house is a converted church & is still level even given it was built in 1880, however the brick driveway where the car sits is on a slope. I just measured while I had the tape out, and it would appear it's more sloped than I thought. The rear wheels are 8 cm lower than the front wheels when it's parked. Given the width of the wheelbase, that's probably still quite an angle backwards, so perhaps this accounts for the discrepancy? I honestly never thought it was that sloped because it feels almost level, but when I stand away from the house and look at the bricks, it's more pronounced than I thought.

 

[GettinBetter]

On the ramps, when draining the oil? I think thats your trouble. The sump was not level and couldn't drain. On the flat all the oil will come out. I find I have to raise the front about 2cm to get rid of the last drops, but do this by hand. Raised up it would definitely not all drain and the voulume you refer to sounds just about what I would expect.

Lol, thats exactly my thoughts when reading the the OP's post. There could be another area the oil is sitting whilst on the slope.
So unless you rule out doing it with the car on the level, by doing it with the car level....... its the cheapest option, IMO.