Technical Suspension issues

[Myusername]

Well I've had the little Panda for a few months now, and driven it about 2000 miles. Generally I'm very pleased with it. However it's certainly not the best example of the breed, and has clearly had 1 careful owner and 12 careless ones.

My question is regarding the way it drives - it's pretty horrible. I don't mean because it's a small car, I mean there's something not right with it.

I do about 120 miles per week on dual carriageway, and it's a handful - it wanders, requires constant correction and concentration. There's knocking which can be heard and felt through the steering wheel, and at times loud unpleasant drumming through the structure which can also be felt through the wheel, almost as if some rubber bushing has failed allowing metal to metal contact.

Any thoughts on what the common wear points are before I consider shelling out for parts? And how do the fixtures and fittings respond to attempts to take them apart? On my last car everything came apart beautifully when required, but on a Vauxhall I owned previously, fixings were corroded lumps of rust!

Advice from the collective greatly appreciated.

 

[dagdromer]

all parts wear out, one quicker then the other. As with suspension it can be anything from shocks to incorrect tyre pressure. I suggest that you take some time to check the basics. feel and wiggle the exhaust to see if that rattles against anything. check tyre pressure, check incorrect wear on the tires. Jack the car up and feel for abnormal amount of play in the wheels (bearings) also check the shocks for leaks and or broken springs.

 

[irc]

Worth checking the rear bushes of the front suspension arms. These often give the symptoms you describe.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I do about 120 miles per week on dual carriageway, and it's a handful - it wanders, requires constant correction and concentration. There's knocking which can be heard and felt through the steering wheel, and at times loud unpleasant drumming through the structure which can also be felt through the wheel, almost as if some rubber bushing has failed allowing metal to metal contact.

Any thoughts on what the common wear points are before I consider shelling out for parts? And how do the fixtures and fittings respond to attempts to take them apart? On my last car everything came apart beautifully when required, but on a Vauxhall I owned previously, fixings were corroded lumps of rust!

Advice from the collective greatly appreciated.

As irc mentions above The rear bushes on the front arms, when they degrade, can give the symptoms you describe

 

[koalar]

Lift a front wheel off the ground

Put a light on the rear suspension rubber bush

Pull and push the tyre hard at the 3 and 9 o’clock positions while looking at the rear bush

9 times out of 10 you will see some movement here

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

As irc mentions above The rear bushes on the front arms, when they degrade, can give the symptoms you describe

Oops, something "funny" happened before I finished this post. Anyway, here's some more:

I think you need to get the front end up on axle stands (wheel free) and give everything a good wiggle and lever about whilst checking with the Mk1 eyeball. If your driving experience is as poor as you are saying then it shouldn't be difficult to spot the culprit (I'm assuming from your post that you have some experience so will know what you're looking for?) It's not unknown for the bearings in the strut top mounts to corrode and seize up which will also give strange "wandery" steering effects but you'll often hear grindy and "boinging" type noises if you turn the steering lock to lock with the weight on the wheels (ie, not suspended on stands). I've not yet worked on a Mk3 and I hear the bottom arm is not quite so easy to access as the older models but it seems to be definitely a job that's "tackleable" on your driveway.

Regarding ease of dismantling. I've owned pandas for many years both the old boxy shaped ones from the '90's and the later 169 model - current is a 2010 - The two bolts that secure the bottom of the strut to the hub upright can be "difficult". I've had them snap off even after copiously soaking in Plus Gas for 24 hours and being seized in the upright casting. Lots of releasing oil and hammering have always won in the end though. If you tackle these bolts I'd always renew them - They are not standard 8.8 strength bolts but are 10.1 so make sure you get the proper ones. Main dealer prices for them are a bit "silly" but have a look around on the web and you'll find them available at reasonable prices. Shop4parts usually have them but are not always the cheapest - mind you if you're doing a suspension rebuild (struts, mounts, springs, etc, etc) then the cost of the bolts becomes a minor factor (I just bought them along with the other parts for convenience when I rebuilt "Becky's" front end. Another nut that can be difficult is the top damper rod nut which holds the strut to the top mount (has to be undone before you can remove the strut from the inner wing) Sometimes you just can't stop the damper rod rotating with the nut. You can try all the usual methods but my favourite is to leave the weight of the car on the strut (ie, don't jack the car up) and use an air impact gun on the nut. This usually shifts them. If you don't have a "rattle" gun your local small garage may slacken it for you and as long as you don't entirely remove the nut you'll find the car can be driven just fine like that. Whether you decide to risk doing that I leave up to you.

Please do let us know what you find and what you end up doing about it. I'll be following this thread with interest - Good luck, Oh, and a happy new year to you and all forum folk!

 

[DaveMcT]

The bottom arms wear out the rear bush long before the front bush and ball joint are worn out. However new parts are not silly money and the ball joint is unlikely to outlast two bushes. So bite the bullet and get new arms from Shop 4 Parts. They are not the cheapest but Magneti Marelli are an OEM supplier so you are getting good stuff. You can get new arms from eBay for less but the rear bushes wont last and you'll be doing it again.

You will also need a pair of anti roll bar drop links. The existing ones are probably fine, but the nuts are usually way too tight (or seized) and will not unscrew. They often have to be cut off scrapping the old link. Remove both sides to free the anti roll bar.

The ball joint pinch M8 bolt is high tensile steel. S4P have them or you can go to eBay for a similar cost. zinc plated is best as they do corrode. A good smear of sticky anti seize paste along the whole length of the bolt is always a good idea. Don't worry about the old one just take off the nut and bash out the old bolt. It will be rusty. It helps to (carefully) open the pinch slot with a flat screwdriver to make fitting the new ball joint a little easier.

I put the jack under the brake disc hub with a block of wood and jack until the car is just about to lift off the axle stand. This allows the arm to drop clear of the ball joint. Lower the jack and move it out of the way.

Unless the car is on a garage lift, the two big bolts holding the rubber bushes will need a 600mm breaker bar for leverage. Once moving they come out easily. The back one gets rusty on the tip so lots of penetrating fluid and working it back and forth will move it without damage. Clean the threads and apply anti seize before putting back.

The old arm comes out easily. The new one can be a pain in the bits. Get the rear bush in as far as possible and drift the front bush to pop it inside the subframe bracket. Sometimes a good thump on the end of the arm is enough. Fit the rear bolt first you will need to lift the arm to keep the inner sleeve aligned with the bolt hole but it should go in. Then fit the front bolt and finally the ball joint. Leave the front bolt threaded but loose for now.

On the ball joint pin. Note how far down the groove sits so you can get it aligned with the bolt hole. Otherwise you will spend ages trying to fit the bolt. You will ned the hub hanging free so it can be positioned over the ball joint pin.

Fit the drop links and put the car back onto its wheels. Finally tighten the front bush bolts. This puts the rubber in neutral tension when the suspension is not moving. I use a number of socket extensions to reach the bolt heads.

 

[koalar]

You will also need a pair of anti roll bar drop links. The existing ones are probably fine, but the nuts are usually way too tight (or seized) and will not unscrew. They often have to be cut off scrapping the old link. Remove both sides to free the anti roll bar.
.

No need to touch them if there fine. Lets not over complicate the job.

Assuming the arms fail the test above

its a 5 minute job each side. Once you done a couple. Its best to spray some penetrating oil a few day before you do the job

two bolts and 1 nut and bolt. Plus a 2.5lb hammer or similar. One of the easier jobs as long as you have a reasonable tool kit.

4410B40 LOWER WISHBONE (WITH BALLJOINT) OF LEFT OR RIGHT FRONT SUSPENSION (ONE) - R+R -CHECK WHEEL GEOMETRY SEPARATELY - Fiat - PANDA - eLearn - 4CarData

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

No need to touch them if there fine. Lets not over complicate the job.

Assuming the arms fail the test above

its a 5 minute job each side. Once you done a couple. Its best to spray some penetrating oil a few day before you do the job

two bolts and 1 nut and bolt. Plus a 2.5lb hammer or similar. One of the easier jobs as long as you have a reasonable tool kit.

4410B40 LOWER WISHBONE (WITH BALLJOINT) OF LEFT OR RIGHT FRONT SUSPENSION (ONE) - R+R -CHECK WHEEL GEOMETRY SEPARATELY - Fiat - PANDA - eLearn - 4CarData

Thanks Koalar. For me particularly useful as it gives the front suspension ride height. Do you happen to know what the rear height should be? (I'm going to make a note of it in my Haynes manual - Maybe I should check to see if Mr Haynes gives it already? although I don't remember noticing it.)

 

[DaveMcT]

Removing the drop links make the job much easier. I've done it both ways. For the sake of £15 for the pair it's well worth the cost.

 

[koalar]

Removing the drop links make the job much easier. I've done it both ways. For the sake of £15 for the pair it's well worth the cost.

rubbish
gains nothing
without air tools you will more than likely have to cut them off. Doubling the time and complexity of the job.



really does help to spray with penetrating oil a few day before, again not strictly necessary

 

[DaveMcT]

I don't have a garage car lift so access is always awkward. I have done the job with and without drop links and its absolutely easier without. The costs was £15 the pair and well worth the saving in hassle. The main issue was getting the rear bolt to align with the arm drooping. Diconnected (or removed) drop links gives that little bit more space and it goes in easily.

I've also seen the videos telling you how to change the alternator. They never have corroded through-threads and they never mention that its much easier if you disconnect the dog bone engine mount so you can tilt the engine forwards. You gain less than an inch of space to insert the top bolt but it makes all the difference. I have done that job both ways so speak from direct experience.

 

[koalar]

I don't have a garage car lift so access is always awkward. I have done the job with and without drop links and its absolutely easier without. The costs was £15 the pair and well worth the saving in hassle. The main issue was getting the rear bolt to align with the arm drooping. Diconnected (or removed) drop links gives that little bit more space and it goes in easily.

I've also seen the videos telling you how to change the alternator. They never have corroded through-threads and they never mention that its much easier if you disconnect the dog bone engine mount so you can tilt the engine forwards. You gain less than an inch of space to insert the top bolt but it makes all the difference. I have done that job both ways so speak from direct experience.

rubbish on a 1.1 and 1.2 I have done and that's 6 on my cars alone. Yes I am doing them on a drive or road

there is at least 6" movement below full droop. If you want any more you could jack under the hub

you just smash down behind the ball joint with a decent weighted hammer and it pops out even after 10 years

Removing the drop links is pointless unless you are replacing them

 

[MrMagoo]

Changed the front shocks over Christmas and it was a b@stard of a job with the strut cap nuts and bearing retainer nuts proper seized. I don't have air tools and I destroyed most of my heavy tools!
On hindsight, I should have given the job to an independent garage.
Make sure you are proper tooled up!

 

[Popitinpete]

Well I've had the little Panda for a few months now, and driven it about 2000 miles. Generally I'm very pleased with it. However it's certainly not the best example of the breed, and has clearly had 1 careful owner and 12 careless ones.

My question is regarding the way it drives - it's pretty horrible. I don't mean because it's a small car, I mean there's something not right with it.

I do about 120 miles per week on dual carriageway, and it's a handful - it wanders, requires constant correction and concentration. There's knocking which can be heard and felt through the steering wheel, and at times loud unpleasant drumming through the structure which can also be felt through the wheel, almost as if some rubber bushing has failed allowing metal to metal contact.

Any thoughts on what the common wear points are before I consider shelling out for parts? And how do the fixtures and fittings respond to attempts to take them apart? On my last car everything came apart beautifully when required, but on a Vauxhall I owned previously, fixings were corroded lumps of rust!

Advice from the collective greatly appreciated.

Hi, as well as the stuff mentioned the correct tracking is ABSOLUTELY essential.
It only has to be out a bit and it ruins the driveability. factory setting is O + or - 1mm but I toe mine in a touch and this vastly improves it.
I've found that the recommendation to inflate the front tyres to 29psi (model dependant) is a bit under inflated and tends to wear the inner and outer edges way before the centre of the tread ( classic sign of under inflation) so I put 32psi in and not only does this give a crisper steering 'feel' it helps wear the tyre evenly.

 

[koalar]

Thanks Koalar. For me particularly useful as it gives the front suspension ride height. Do you happen to know what the rear height should be? (I'm going to make a note of it in my Haynes manual - Maybe I should check to see if Mr Haynes gives it already? although I don't remember noticing it.)

sorry missed this one

4420A35 REAR SUSPENSION DAMPERS - R R - Fiat - PANDA - eLearn - 4CarData

needs full tank of petrol, empty it will be wildly out

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

sorry missed this one

4420A35 REAR SUSPENSION DAMPERS - R R - Fiat - PANDA - eLearn - 4CarData

needs full tank of petrol, empty it will be wildly out

Thanks very much for that and I'll be saving it for future reference - but, damn it, I just realized we're talking about the Mark 3 here, aren't we? I mostly mess about with the earlier 169 models. thanks very much though, I'm almost certain to own a Mk3 at some time in the future.

I'm intrigued with the difference of opinion here on whether to remove the drop links or not. I don't know about the Mk3 but on the 169 I can't see what you'd gain by removing them to change the bottom arms? but I'll take a close look next time I'm under there just out of interest. Their fixings are often heavily corroded and trying to hold the stud with an allen key just doesn't work. I tackle them by pushing back the rubber gator so I can get a grip on the metal rim of the ball end next to the hole in the anti roll bar with a Footprint or Stilson before trying to undo the nut. If that fails I just cut the nut off with my angle grinder. However, why touch it at all if you don't need to? By the way, I find trying to tighten the front bolt with the vehicle on the ground (to avoid wind up in the rubber bush) quite difficult to do in my driveway but the Haynes manual gives a very interesting procedure which allows it to be satisfactorily done with the vehicle still on axle stands and before you fit the ball joint into the bottom of the upright. As the arm is easily moved this makes it a "doddle" to do.

 

[koalar]

Thanks very much for that and I'll be saving it for future reference - but, damn it, I just realized we're talking about the Mark 3 here, aren't we? I mostly mess about with the earlier 169 models. thanks very much though, I'm almost certain to own a Mk3 at some time in the future.

I'm intrigued with the difference of opinion here on whether to remove the drop links or not. I don't know about the Mk3 but on the 169 I can't see what you'd gain by removing them to change the bottom arms? but I'll take a close look next time I'm under there just out of interest. Their fixings are often heavily corroded and trying to hold the stud with an allen key just doesn't work. I tackle them by pushing back the rubber gator so I can get a grip on the metal rim of the ball end next to the hole in the anti roll bar with a Footprint or Stilson before trying to undo the nut. If that fails I just cut the nut off with my angle grinder. However, why touch it at all if you don't need to? By the way, I find trying to tighten the front bolt with the vehicle on the ground (to avoid wind up in the rubber bush) quite difficult to do in my driveway but the Haynes manual gives a very interesting procedure which allows it to be satisfactorily done with the vehicle still on axle stands and before you fit the ball joint into the bottom of the upright. As the arm is easily moved this makes it a "doddle" to do.

MK3=169 confusing as if you look for part the 169 is often referred to as MK2

anyhow we are discussing 2003-2012 roughly in this section

 

[Popitinpete]

Thanks very much for that and I'll be saving it for future reference - but, damn it, I just realized we're talking about the Mark 3 here, aren't we? I mostly mess about with the earlier 169 models. thanks very much though, I'm almost certain to own a Mk3 at some time in the future.

I'm intrigued with the difference of opinion here on whether to remove the drop links or not. I don't know about the Mk3 but on the 169 I can't see what you'd gain by removing them to change the bottom arms? but I'll take a close look next time I'm under there just out of interest. Their fixings are often heavily corroded and trying to hold the stud with an allen key just doesn't work. I tackle them by pushing back the rubber gator so I can get a grip on the metal rim of the ball end next to the hole in the anti roll bar with a Footprint or Stilson before trying to undo the nut. If that fails I just cut the nut off with my angle grinder. However, why touch it at all if you don't need to? By the way, I find trying to tighten the front bolt with the vehicle on the ground (to avoid wind up in the rubber bush) quite difficult to do in my driveway but the Haynes manual gives a very interesting procedure which allows it to be satisfactorily done with the vehicle still on axle stands and before you fit the ball joint into the bottom of the upright. As the arm is easily moved this makes it a "doddle" to do.

Yea bit confusing 169 = 2003 to 2011 some class it as mk2 some mk3.
The mark 3 comes about because the 'original' panda in 1982 (?) was obvs mk1 but it had a rework/face-lift in 1986/87 so this is called by some the mk2 the in 2003 the 169 was born so 'becomes' a mk3.
Some just class the original panda and its facelifted/reworked as the mk1 then the 169 as a mk2 then the 2012 onwards the mk3.
People can get quite, how can I put it, worked up if you call the wrong panda the wrong model...

 

[Popitinpete]

sorry missed this one

4420A35 REAR SUSPENSION DAMPERS - R R - Fiat - PANDA - eLearn - 4CarData

needs full tank of petrol, empty it will be wildly out

Hi, if I understand your link correctly, torqueing the suspension bolts up when the car is on the floor and correct ride height makes a difference? Didn't think any 'movement' was in these fixings. How would doing it incorrectly effect the suspension bushes and ultimately their life span. I can see me getting the jack out....