Technical Subframe Rot

[koalar]

The fact the swinging arm are always up for sale second hand but not the full frame

to me points to a common part to corrode and when a 4x4 is broken its too bad to resell, here in the UK

 

[jrkitching]

Everything that's been said in this thread points me to advising anyone with a 4x4 with a sound frame to take every preventative action possible to ensure it stays that way. On the 4WD Pandas, this is likely the achilles heel that will put many older cars off the road.

 

[DaveMcT]

It has to be worth checking if the later model 4x4 uses the same central subframe. I have not checked, but it's highly likely the wider track is added to the swing arms with the central part being as per the 169 version.

 

[Troubles with 500c]

Been following thread with interest. Having run many classics it’s never fun finding out what’s happening underneath.

That subframe is shot and repairing on an 07 Panda sounds like throwing good money after bad. There’s always more to find when you start pulling apart.

Buy another 4x4 Panda with a good frame and keep that one for spares.

 

[DaveMcT]

It ll depends on how much you love the old car. In the late 1980s the Panda 4x4 was a toy and the Citroen CX was a fast depreciating expensive French car. Now look at them. Prices are going silly.

 

[mj2k]

Also it struck me a modified version of the Panda 4x4 rear subframe would be a great way to give the Abarth 500 'proper' independent rear suspension (a criticism which is sometimes aimed at them) at the expense of adding some rear weight (which is not a bad thing) so I hope somebody does start making them sometime; I suspect it'd be quite popular if marketed right with Abarth track day warriors and modders.

 

[judderbar]

you can get a good 4X4 rear subframe from italy for about €280 with €110 postage to the UK

 

[DaveMcT]

The rotted part is Item 1 Part number 5070580 - listed at £270 plus VAT. I dont have access to the 312/316 Panda parts catalogue. Maybe someone can take a look. Could be they use the same part?

Edit -
I just found this. - eBay item 293244565381

The later 321/316 4x4 looks to be a modified twist beam axle. It wont help the OP and wont add any value to track day Abarth 500s. Presumably, the front(?) suspension strut and hub are not part of the deal.

Another Edit -
eBay item 353406029303 is for a pair of 4x4 rear swing arms @ £208. The same supplier may be able to help with the centre section Fiat part 5070580.

 

[judderbar]

The rotted part is Item 1 Part number 5070580 - listed at £270 plus VAT. I dont have access to the 312/316 Panda parts catalogue. Maybe someone can take a look. Could be they use the same part?

Edit -
I just found this. - eBay item 293244565381

The later 321/316 4x4 looks to be a modified twist beam axle. It wont help the OP and wont add any value to track day Abarth 500s. Presumably, the front(?) suspension strut and hub are not part of the deal.

Another Edit -
eBay item 353406029303 is for a pair of 4x4 rear swing arms @ £208. The same supplier may be able to help with the centre section Fiat part 5070580.

I was looking at this part number 51857286

 

[judderbar]

I was looking at this part number 51857286

 

[DaveMcT]

I was looking at this part number 51857286

That will be the central part of the later 4x4 axle. It looks like a 2WD axle with different wheel mountings. However (almost certainly), the drive shafts, hubs and brakes are different to the 169. It will probably bolt under the 169 (as does the later 2wd axle), but the wheel track is 50mm wider (25mm each side).

Assuming your central section (part number 5070580) swing arm mounts are ok, I still believe that your central section can be repaired. The rusted part is is a steel tube which. Alignment is important but the anti roll bar brackets do not have to be perfect like the swing arm mounts have to be. Saying that, the subframe would be removed from the car so repairs should be better than new (thicker tubes) and at least as accurate.

The picture in here illustrates the point.

51857286 Rear Bridge fiat panda (169) 1.2b Man 5m 60cv 4wd (2003 > 2012) FRESH | eBay

BRUNO TRAS. SRL - TORRE DEL GRECO (NA)- P.IVA 03150771214. oLAMIERATI: tutti i ricambi sono usati, per cui è sempre possibile trovare segni di usura o graffi ulteriori a quelli evidenziati in foto. oTURBOCOMPRESSORI: la vendita di turbine è sempre associata alle fotografie della stessa.

www.ebay.co.uk

The subframe is two tubes with jointing brackets. The anti-roll bar is at the back (bottom of this image). The bigger front tube carries the swing arms so has to be precision made. Structural rot in in the front tube will be impossible to repair without manufacturing jigs. I argue that structural rot in the back tube can be actually be replaced as the ARB does not affect suspension alignment.

 

[vexorg]

The bigger front tube carries the swing arms so has to be precision made. Structural rot in in the front tube will be impossible to repair without manufacturing jigs.

Nonsense, guys here claim it can be done with a couple of bits of scaffolding pipe and half an hour with tig and grinder!!

 

[koalar]

nobody say in it can't. be repaired

but it has to be done right

look where it is, in the crumple zone, look at the unnecessary webbing, isnt that rear end protection

we go round in circles. But to get that repaired properly would cost more than the car worth.

In fact it looks like it should have failed the previous MOT in my opinion.

I have my doubts about some of the standard rear replacement beams being made out of thicker materials. Effects both handling and how it behaves in an accident. But I can live with this. I can't recommend anyone to bodge this.

 

[DaveMcT]

Nobody is suggesting the repair should be bodged.
Nobody should be suggesting that repair is not possible.
The question is what work needs to be done (ice bergs and tips come to mind) and can it be done at reasonable cost.

 

[vexorg]

Nobody is suggesting the repair should be bodged.

and I'd still stand by anything that doesn't have an approval of some sort is a bodge, no matter how professionally it's made.

 

[mj2k]

Is the OP still involved, or has the car been scrapped by now?

Wish that rather lovely design fitted the 500 though, clever the way the trailing arms are shaped to fit in the available space...

 

[judderbar]

Nobody is suggesting the repair should be bodged.
Nobody should be suggesting that repair is not possible.
The question is what work needs to be done (ice bergs and tips come to mind) and can it be done at reasonable cost.

to my way of thinking that frame looks so far gone it cannot be repaired. It would need to be rebuilt. Aside from the much thicker pieces of metal the whole of that subframe must be very majorly compromised.

 

[DaveMcT]

and I'd still stand by anything that doesn't have an approval of some sort is a bodge, no matter how professionally it's made.

If true or even realistic, this would mean that every restored classic car on the road is illegal. It would also be used by car makers to prevent anyone using anything which did not come from the original factory.

 

[DaveMcT]

to my way of thinking that frame looks so far gone it cannot be repaired. It would need to be rebuilt. Aside from the much thicker pieces of metal the whole of that subframe must be very majorly compromised.

The parts we have images of are obviously beyond repair. My point is that the ARB mounting tube could be remade and rebuilt. That bit is not a precision part. But as I also said, we don't know the extent of damage elsewhere.

On the information given it could be repaired. Show me the rest of it and we can discuss what sort of mess it's in.

 

[Troubles with 500c]

If true or even realistic, this would mean that every restored classic car on the road is illegal. It would also be used by car makers to prevent anyone using anything which did not come from the original factory.

There are probably quite a few classics that shouldn’t be.

My Spider is a classic example of multiple bodged MOT repairs that are all having to be removed and replaced with proper repairs, using replacement panels where available.