Why didn't you tell me this when I was trying to get my S/S to work?
Mick.
Ahhhh:doh::bang:
Technical Stop Start Story
- Thread starter Mick F
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Technical Stop Start Story
Ahhhh:doh::bang:
So why not say, I think this could be an issue as opposed to painting the doomsday scenario that has been painted. How many twinair turbo failures have we seen anyway?
Well there's one right now in this thread.
Perhaps a bit unfair as this is most likely a car which should have been recalled but for some reason wasn't. That might be cold comfort to a second owner if the car's outside warranty.
I think my summary on this is pretty much on the money. A quick look on ePer suggests a turbo failure out of warranty could be at least £2k so long term keepers might need to ask "Do I feel lucky"?
Some folks will find that a lot to lose if the worst does happen.
I'm sure as time passes the aftermarket will come up with cheaper solutions, but for now it's a big worst case risk, even if it happens only rarely.
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OP
OP
We're talking of "hot" turbos here, are we not?
Can we define "hot turbo"?
Is it hot when running normally in a town/city environment, or is it hot after a fast paced run up the motorway?
Worst case scenario would be a 20 mile burn-up along a dual carriageway and then stopping at traffic lights on the slip road off?
Getting frightened here!
Good job we paid for a 12m parts and labour warranty for our Sept 2011 500TA.
Regards,
Mick.
Can we define "hot turbo"?
Is it hot when running normally in a town/city environment, or is it hot after a fast paced run up the motorway?
Worst case scenario would be a 20 mile burn-up along a dual carriageway and then stopping at traffic lights on the slip road off?
Getting frightened here!
Good job we paid for a 12m parts and labour warranty for our Sept 2011 500TA.
Regards,
Mick.
Nearly every white van in the country has a turbo and they get a lot of stop start abuse. A mate of mine has a Renault kangoo with 180k up and no issues.
OP
OP
After I left the RN, I had a job driving a White Van.
I did maybe 100miles a day in Devon and Cornwall, with 30 or 40 drops per day, five days a week.
The van was started in the morning, and I didn't switch off the ignition until I got back to base.
The van didn't have S/S but it had a turbo and that turbo didn't stop rotating until I switched off. It was running maybe six hours per day.
Regards,
Mick.
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ahmett
Prominent member
give me a break those engines are only designed to last for 5,000 km or so!Perhaps so, but this is a race car that shuts off its engine less than 30 seconds after being on the track and doesn't die
With any car with stop start, if you see a red light, you'll be slowing down, letting the engine wind down, slow and stop, you then have to take the car out of gear and release the clutch before the computer will stop the engine, as in the case of our diesel mini, if the engine is hot the fan will start running before the car stops, and the turbo as on most cars is immediately behind the radiator.
So once you've slowed stoped taken the car out of gear and lifted the clutch the car (turbo) is already slowing/cooling down the fan has kicked in to provide extra cooling till restart and as Maxi again has pointed out the oils are designed for much higher heat handling than those of the past, also if the oil is too hot then it's passed through an oil cooler (the is the case in the mini and on our Punto 1.9 both are fitted with oil coolers)
Given the number of turbo cars on this forum it seems disproportionatly that turbos very rarely seem to fail compared to other issues, so I would suggest that fixating on premature turbo failure as a result of stop start technology is the wrong place to be focusing concerns.
What we do see time and time again are head gasket failures on virtually every combination of fire engine for the last 15-20years.
As the coolant/water pump stops along with the engine I would suggest that increasing the likelyhood of head gasket failure with S/S is far more likely than than a warm turbo being fed cooled, high spec oil.
Hot spots in the head and coolant channels especially after multiple start stops in heavy traffic are easily more likely to lead to overheating the head and gasket leading to failure. And it's the 1.2 petrol engines that suffer most.
As for why TA engined cars have a lower resale value, I suspect it's more due to the reputation of not living up to claimed MPG figures and the risk of expensive repair bills with the complicated engine technology used, I don't suspect the presence of a turbo is the main concern as this is what's under the bonnet of most diesels and they still carry their premium
So once you've slowed stoped taken the car out of gear and lifted the clutch the car (turbo) is already slowing/cooling down the fan has kicked in to provide extra cooling till restart and as Maxi again has pointed out the oils are designed for much higher heat handling than those of the past, also if the oil is too hot then it's passed through an oil cooler (the is the case in the mini and on our Punto 1.9 both are fitted with oil coolers)
Given the number of turbo cars on this forum it seems disproportionatly that turbos very rarely seem to fail compared to other issues, so I would suggest that fixating on premature turbo failure as a result of stop start technology is the wrong place to be focusing concerns.
What we do see time and time again are head gasket failures on virtually every combination of fire engine for the last 15-20years.
As the coolant/water pump stops along with the engine I would suggest that increasing the likelyhood of head gasket failure with S/S is far more likely than than a warm turbo being fed cooled, high spec oil.
Hot spots in the head and coolant channels especially after multiple start stops in heavy traffic are easily more likely to lead to overheating the head and gasket leading to failure. And it's the 1.2 petrol engines that suffer most.
As for why TA engined cars have a lower resale value, I suspect it's more due to the reputation of not living up to claimed MPG figures and the risk of expensive repair bills with the complicated engine technology used, I don't suspect the presence of a turbo is the main concern as this is what's under the bonnet of most diesels and they still carry their premium
We're talking of "hot" turbos here, are we not?
Can we define "hot turbo"?
Is it hot when running normally in a town/city environment, or is it hot after a fast paced run up the motorway?
Worst case scenario would be a 20 mile burn-up along a dual carriageway and then stopping at traffic lights on the slip road off?
Getting frightened here!
Good job we paid for a 12m parts and labour warranty for our Sept 2011 500TA.
Regards,
Mick.
Yup, running up a dual carriageway at speed and then pulling off, not lifting off the throttle till you brake and then parking up straight away.
Ummm ok
The Le Mann 24 hr race winner will generally cover in excess of 5000km and the engines take so much abuse that they need to be far more robust than that, even the biggest teams at Le Manns have no where near the budgets of the F1 teams and it's about endurance and not just speed, they tend to run special oils or super tuned engines.
Yeah they're not your normal road going engines but they certainly are not 'throw away' they often get stripped and rebuilt.
I should add my father built Le Manns cars for Audi Bentley and lotus, so have a pretty good idea of the inner workings of these teams
As I've previously said I think turbo failure is inevitable in any car but I don't thing S/S is going to be key in bringing forward the interval at which they fail. And far smarter engineers will have thought of and accounted for these issues
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ahmett
Prominent member
As jrkitching says there are solutions, but at what cost ? The sad fact of the matter is, once your car is out of warranty you are very much on your own
As jrkitching says there are solutions, but at what cost ? The sad fact of the matter is, once your car is out of warranty you are very much on your own
This applies to any car, not buying a car with S/S in the future is going to seriously limit your choice of cars.
As a general rule those who buy a car for the long term don't buy brand new, and will not have a choice or indeed any idea how that car was looked after or driven prior to buying it.
Those who buy brand new cars don't tend to keep them more than 3-5 years so being super cautious about how that car is cared for is of much lower concern than those who want it to last years.
It's not unreasonable these days to expect a turbo diesel car, turbo to last 100k miles if the car is serviced properly, a twin air being petrol runs much clearer oil than any diesel ever would, and the construction and design of the turbo is only going to differ Is the shape and size of the impeller and compressor. I would expect a twin air turbo to last even longer.... Assuming it's looked after
But is that because someone has thrashed it and then turned it off?
Not really, Toyota have already ditched it and made other changes instead to bring emissions down, I can see some other manufactures following.
The combination of water cooled turbos, modern oils, relatively short stop/start switch offs occurring mostly during relatively "low demand" (city driving) will be miles away from switching the engine off for the night immediately after a hard thrashing.
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Back on topic, so to speak, just tried a 2012, 2.5 year old 1.2 lounge, SS only lasted 1min 40sec with everything off before restarting - new battery to be considered or do we think a decent over night pulse charge should be enough to kick it back to the 3/4min (can't remember which it is) designed to stay off for?
As long as the car is being driven regularly, I'd say you could probably manage to squeeze it through this winter, but you'll most likely need to replace it before the next one.
So sticking it on a pulse charge is unlikely to improve the SS cutout duration?
