Need help tracking down an oil

[AndyRKett]

I have been checking out the hand book for the Punto Cabrio, as well as the windows being slow and the runners likely needing a good clean the roof is slow which is often caused by low hydraulic fluid in the system that operates the roof. The manual says to use “Tutela LHM oil” looking around this appears to be similar to what is used in Citroen suspension systems and possibly some gearboxes??

Obviously it’s a 25 year old car so the actual recommended product Tutela LHM doesn’t appear to exist anymore! Can I just use any other LHM type oil do you think? I know there are a few experts on oil here who might be able to advise.

 

[bugsymike]

This is Comma LHM+ from motor factors some time ago. Sorry for shakey pics, just dived out to garage in the rain.
Another thought some years ago I fixed a Mk4 Escort roof that was slow and it was the hydraulic pump motor which needed some attention, it was like a starter motor design without the solenoid and pinion gears.

 

[varesecrazy]

Obviously it’s a 25 year old car so the actual recommended product Tutela LHM doesn’t appear to exist anymore! Can I just use any other LHM type oil do you think? I know there are a few experts on oil here who might be able to advise. View attachment 433295

Try Motor mech in Birmingham

They are long established FIAT experts, but apparently started with Citroen

People have posted this on here, so worth a phone call

Help! Newbie Panda owner - warning lights and knocking | FIAT Panda (2012+)

Hi there! I purchased my first Panda (2013, twinair 4x4, 0.9 petrol engine, 62k on the clock) in July this year; over the last few days the 'injection system failure' warning light has popped up and remains on. Also, when taking it on a long drive a few weeks back, once it had warmed up there...

www.fiatforum.com

 

[portland_bill]

Fiat used the name Tutela for many oils. Google translate says it means 'protection'.
So discounting 'Tutela', it is LHM oil. That would suggest any LHM should do.

It appears that Tutela LHM does still exist, although I could only find it in Europe. Always described as brake fluid, but that is for the Citroen and other full pressurised systems, not compatible with DOT4 fluids. All Fiat oils supplied by Petronas, so might find it with their brand.

 

[AndyRKett]

As there is no actual specification given in the book, I’m going to assume I can get away with any LHM mineral oil

The plan is to flush the system out and replace all the oil, if I had to guess I’d say it’s probably not been touched in 25 years so all fresh oil and all the hinge points of the roof greased will have it working like new again

 

[bugsymike]

As there is no actual specification given in the book, I’m going to assume I can get away with any LHM mineral oil

The plan is to flush the system out and replace all the oil, if I had to guess I’d say it’s probably not been touched in 25 years so all fresh oil and all the hinge points of the roof greased will have it working like new again

I assume LHM mineral oil is compatible with the later LHM+ version?

 

[AndyRKett]

I assume LHM mineral oil is compatible with the later LHM+ version?

No idea ???

I suppose it very much depends on what the plus means.

When investigating this I stumbled across a video of an American guy making a right meal of topping up the hydraulic oil in a Porsche 911 convertible. He had paid something like $50 for 250ml of oil....... I am not spending that much. It will get forklift hydraulic oil before I spend that sort of money.

Thinking about it I should pull out the manual for my Golf Cab and see what they recommend?

Its a very simple set up on the punto. Two rams either side of the roof, then and pump that just pushes the oil from one side of the ram to the other with a little chamber for some spare oil.

The newer cars tend to have much more complex systems with bits that fold up to then lift the rear deck of the car before then folding the whole roof back into the boot and with automatic clamps that clamp the roof down along the front edge.

The Punto just has two handles you twist to release the roof before you lower it. Because it is so simple if I use something that is vaguely similar to LHM oil and I make sure to try and clean as much as the old oil out as possible, I don't think it will cause any problems.

 

[bugsymike]

No idea ???

I suppose it very much depends on what the plus means.

It looks like you have done the search I just did , which seems to indicate better at lower temps for the LHM plus version.
If pump being similar to the one I did on a Ford Escort some time ago presumably any high resistance in the circuit getting hot like starter leads will slow the operation down also.
Hopefully fresh oil and a fully charged battery is all it needs, you don't want a slow operation when it starts to rain. I had a 320SLK Mercedes some years ago with the electric hard top, there was a slight traffic jam and it had started to rain so I operated the for the top to go up which all worked as it should but is a fairly involved operation, then the traffic started to move off at speed so I was obliged to get off the road to continue the operation or upset a long cue of motorists.

 

[portland_bill]

It looks like you have done the search I just did , which seems to indicate better at lower temps for the LHM plus version.
If pump being similar to the one I did on a Ford Escort some time ago presumably any high resistance in the circuit getting hot like starter leads will slow the operation down also.
Hopefully fresh oil and a fully charged battery is all it needs, you don't want a slow operation when it starts to rain. I had a 320SLK Mercedes some years ago with the electric hard top, there was a slight traffic jam and it had started to rain so I operated the for the top to go up which all worked as it should but is a fairly involved operation, then the traffic started to move off at speed so I was obliged to get off the road to continue the operation or upset a long cue of motorists.

They're already mildly upset, watching someone in a Mercedes demonstrate his electric roof. A mix of jealousy and contempt, with maybe a tinge of curiosity. So sit there and let them enjoy the whole show. Once shut, the thrown coffee cups will bounce off anyway.
Watching such a roof do its ballet is a thing of wonder. Peugeot 206 owners added a hint of fear to the mix, as they were prone to stopping midway.

 

[AndyRKett]

It looks like you have done the search I just did , which seems to indicate better at lower temps for the LHM plus version.
If pump being similar to the one I did on a Ford Escort some time ago presumably any high resistance in the circuit getting hot like starter leads will slow the operation down also.
Hopefully fresh oil and a fully charged battery is all it needs, you don't want a slow operation when it starts to rain. I had a 320SLK Mercedes some years ago with the electric hard top, there was a slight traffic jam and it had started to rain so I operated the for the top to go up which all worked as it should but is a fairly involved operation, then the traffic started to move off at speed so I was obliged to get off the road to continue the operation or upset a long cue of motorists.

Fortunately newer cars are much better in that you can drive and operate the roof at the same time. I’m not sure about the old SLK but my golf the roof goes up in 9 seconds and can be operated up to 20mph, very handy in slow moving traffic or if you have to pull into a lay-by you don’t actually need to stop and the roof will be up by the time you reach the other end of the lay-by

The much older Punto on the other hand while quick at about 11 seconds (if it works properly) but the hand brake has to be on for it to work.
I suspect with having to manually clamp the front of the roof down it means that you really need to be stationary to reach over and do the passenger side clamp. It would be interesting if I could find a way to motorise and automate the clamps, as a nice little technical project but at the moment just getting it all working is the priority. Modern convertibles mostly have done away with the manual clamps

 

[bugsymike]

They're already mildly upset, watching someone in a Mercedes demonstrate his electric roof. A mix of jealousy and contempt, with maybe a tinge of curiosity. So sit there and let them enjoy the whole show. Once shut, the thrown coffee cups will bounce off anyway.
Watching such a roof do its ballet is a thing of wonder. Peugeot 206 owners added a hint of fear to the mix, as they were prone to stopping midway.

The low mileage Citroen Pluriel I bought for £300 with a faulty roof really was a nightmare but I managed to sort it all out even when the parts manager said their workshop ran away from them, still it was good when it all worked.

 

[s130]

Have you seen this:

https://uk.pli-petronas.com/en-gb/product/tutela-brake-lhm-fluid

 

[AndyRKett]

Have you seen this:

https://uk.pli-petronas.com/en-gb/product/tutela-brake-lhm-fluid

That’s extremely useful, thank you !!!

 

[s130]

That’s extremely useful, thank you !!!

You Are Welcome as the Yanks would say

I've been blinded/in a void myself on many things and sometimes another person web searching finds what I missed. No explanation as to why that is but it occurs.

The link I gave also quotes the Industry and OEM specs/approvals so these can be used as a base reference for sourcing any other make.

 

[AndyRKett]

The link I gave also quotes the Industry and OEM specs/approvals so these can be used as a base reference for sourcing any other make.

yep that is the very useful part and I have downloaded the data sheet, so I can compare to other products. There is no way I am going to try and track down and pay full price for the "proper" stuff when I could get an off the shelf alternative for significantly less money.

 

[portland_bill]

I've been blinded/in a void myself on many things and sometimes another person web searching finds what I missed. No explanation as to why that is but it occurs.

I've sat my computer next to my brother's, and both done the same search using Google, and got completely different results. Not until the third page did we find something we both had.

The search engines don't just search for what you asked for. They modify the results based on your search history. Apparently not as clever as they think. It probably saves us scrolling through pages of irrelevant stuff, but lots of relevant stuff also gets lost.

 

[The Panda Nut]

It looks like you have done the search I just did , which seems to indicate better at lower temps for the LHM plus version.
If pump being similar to the one I did on a Ford Escort some time ago presumably any high resistance in the circuit getting hot like starter leads will slow the operation down also.
Hopefully fresh oil and a fully charged battery is all it needs, you don't want a slow operation when it starts to rain. I had a 320SLK Mercedes some years ago with the electric hard top, there was a slight traffic jam and it had started to rain so I operated the for the top to go up which all worked as it should but is a fairly involved operation, then the traffic started to move off at speed so I was obliged to get off the road to continue the operation or upset a long cue of motorists.

Thatll learn youfor having a posh knobs roof.. I cant wait for the cars with electric tailgates to get old LOL

 

[The Panda Nut]

I've sat my computer next to my brother's, and both done the same search using Google, and got completely different results. Not until the third page did we find something we both had.

The search engines don't just search for what you asked for. They modify the results based on your search history. Apparently not as clever as they think. It probably saves us scrolling through pages of irrelevant stuff, but lots of relevant stuff also gets lost.

In fact neither clver nor helpful in any way whatsoever. Probably this should be googles 'mission statement'

 

[bugsymike]

Thatll learn youfor having a posh knobs roof.. I cant wait for the cars with electric tailgates to get old LOL

Same as with with all my vehicles, it came at the right price , if it wasn't for the concerns should anything go wrong with the car in the future I would have kept, it went well , handled well, stopped well, the only well that worried me was the well I could throw money in as it aged.

 

[AndyRKett]

Thatll learn youfor having a posh knobs roof.. I cant wait for the cars with electric tailgates to get old LOL

As 25 year old posh knobs roof, this car has no canbus, no complex electronics so I dare say your panda is infinitely more complex.

The roof is very simple, two hydraulic rams, an electric motor wired to a button which goes up and down, so the electrics for the roof is no more complicated than any electric sunroof or window, the roof being hydraulic and running off one motor make it less complex and more robust than a modern electric boot.

I think the roof on the C3 plurial was electric or manual? I can imagine it could be a bit temperamental as it can all be taken apart and removed, there is lots of points for failure

The Punto roof is still working after 25 years so I suspect it could last another 25 years with a little TLC