Panda My dad bought me a fiat panda eco active 1.1 2010

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Panda My dad bought me a fiat panda eco active 1.1 2010

I know they actually made some, and trialed them I believe, but I don't know where it all went after that. Now you've caused me to remember, I really must ask her what the outcome was - my guess would be that it was too expensive to make and install and labour intensive to operate.

The above mentioned daughter has just been facetiming us and it gave me the opportunity to ask about the filters. Apparently they not only manufactured test examples but did a wee production run which was used to outfit a small town here in Scotland as a working trial. The problem was not that they didn't work but, as suspected, it was the servicing of the installation which proved impractical. The filters had to be changed and the interval was very variable depending on the location of the filter. More often on well used roads and less often on wee side roads etc. She'd moved on during the trial into work herself so wasn't involved further with the trial but she thinks the biggest problem was that noone was prepared to foot the cost of either the filters themselves or the increased labour costs with the increased staffing also required.
 
Another wee niggle of mine is tyres (not surprising I suppose with having worked for Firestone)
Just wondering if you have a brand preference these days, personally I like Uniroyal and have them fitted to almost every car I have owned, since my brother had them fitted to a Peugeot 205gti, it went around roundabouts in the wet like it was on rails, and I was converted from Michelin to Uniroyal, most recent is a pair on the front of my Mercedes CL500 a pair on the front of my Panda and set of 4 on the wife's VX Tigra, I find them to be reasonably priced, wet weather performance and resistance to aquaplaning and with no steering pull if you do drive a bit too quickly through standing water, they are the best I have used.
I had Dunlop on a motorcycle 23 years ago, the grip was ok in the dry but any damp road it was all over the place, would not even consider having them on anything since.
 
Just wondering if you have a brand preference these days

I'd suggest you choose a tyre with a low noise rating. The Panda's suspension is relatively crude and quite a bit of road noise gets transmitted to the interior; low noise tyres help. For a basic Panda, Michelin Energys are good all round tyres and work well - I've had two sets now and they're a definite improvement on the OEM Continental EcoContacts. You're somewhat limited by what's available in 155/80x13, though; not many cars left using these tyres.
 
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Another wee niggle of mine is tyres (not surprising I suppose with having worked for Firestone) I

I missed that last post of yours regarding the tyres.

Yes, I too am a bit wary of tyres - and more recently than ever really - particularly how running pressures have huge effect on handling. My last car, a Suzuki Jimny was particularly sensitive about pressures - the clowns at a local garage topped up my neighbour's Jimny to an average car tyre pressure of around 32psi and she almost went off the road after collecting the car from them. Twice now, she has had to rebuke the garage for that practice - I think they have learned the sharp side of her character now!

Just last week I had to change the two front tyres on Mrs Max's Vauxhall Agila - I asked the garage (Protyre at Carterton) to replace the two front tyres then fit the wheels on the rear which they did.
On the way back home the car felt like a piece of crap to drive.
On returning home and checking the recommended tyre pressures the book stated 30psi on the rear and 33psi on the front.
What I found was the new tyres on the rear were inflated to 40psi and the fronts were still at the rear pressure setting of 30psi :eek:
How many people would have just accepted the car as it was? In my opinion the car was in a dangerous configuration tyre-pressurewise.

As for tread depth - I start getting a bit itchy when they reach 3mm; this is from a bad experience I had when I ran into an unseen puddle at night when I had lowish tread remaining but well within the legal parameters - I stayed on the blacktop but only just; it was a heart-stopping moment and I needed a change of underwear immediately afterwards.
 
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Just wondering if you have a brand preference these days, personally I like Uniroyal and have them fitted to almost every car I have owned

That's quite a difficult one Jock because different people have different priorities and different cars with different suspension being driven by people with a wide variety of driving styles can mean that one person's favourite tyre is not necessarily another's. So I can only give you my personal "take" on it.

The "safe" recommendation has to be to buy one of the really big names, which I would rate as one fitted as OE by the various manufacturers. So, Bridgestone (although I have not liked the Eco things fitted to my Ibiza) Dunlop, Michelin, Goodyear, Pirelli, Continental - I could go on. The problem with going this route is you can relieve yourself of quite large amounts of cash and, being a true Scot, that goes against my nature. Also, as you've discovered with your Dunlops, which I have to say I generally like but do find they tend to wear quite quickly, sometimes you just run into a tyre, which in a particular application, just doesn't work for you.

Personally I go for a name known to me in the mid range. So, Firestone, Uniroyal, (Uniroyal have always had a good reputation for wet weather grip) Avon, Barum, Yokohama, Falken and so on. Many years ago when we were in Czechoslovakia for a round of the European Touring cars at Brno, we tyre engineers from the competing tyre companys So Firestone, Dunlop, Goodyear, were treated to a tour of the Barum factory. This was back in the '70s, long before Continental owned them, and we were all impressed at how modern a facility it was. I've run a number of my cars on Barums and been very happy with them. In fact the panda has 2 on her rears just now and the Ibiza has one for a spare - it came with just a squirty can of gunk so I had to buy a full size spare separately and when the time comes I'll buy another to match it. I also had them all round on my old 1.9tdi Cordoba and they coped well with the weight and torque of the diesel engine. Having seen so many hillclimb cars and club racers on Avons I've always wanted to try them and I,m very tempted to put a couple on the Ibiza soon.

I'm talking about pairs of tyres here aren't I and there's good reason for this. I'm not a great fan of rotating tyres around to different positions on the car. I think there was a case to be made back at the beginning of time, but not now. With most cars being front wheel drive today's cars will wear out the fronts much more quickly than the rears. So I run the fronts down until they are around the 2mm or just below. Then I move the rears, which will likely still have maybe 6mm on them (a new tyre will typically have 8mm of tread depth) to the front and put the new ones to the rear. I do this intentionally because then I have the older tyres on the front - but still with plenty of tread depth - so they are going to wear more quickly now so I don't end up with two sets of fronts worn out and a, by now, really old set of rears which may well be cracking due to age and with the newer tyres on the rear they will have marginally better grip - due to the "younger" rubber so the car, under extreme circumstances, will tend to understeer which is a much safer condition for your average driver to cope with than a cer which "flicks" into oversteer. I don't switch them diagonally either, just go N/S/R to N/S/F and the same on the O/S. Because the spare is so often a space saver (if you've got one at all!) I'll leave the spare out of this discussion. I also would always run identical tyres on an axle. So, just for example, maybe Barums on the front and Firestones on the rear. I would always try to avoid say having a Firestone on one side and Barum on the other, especially on the front. The tyre tests I talked about earlier highlighted how different makes of tyre can grip differently. We found that under heavy braking, if you mixed tyre makes on the same axle then as long as the tyre kept rotating the car would pull up reasonably straight but if the wheels were locked up then the different coefficient of friction between the road surface and tyre tread compound could cause the car to slew. I'm sure ABS would probably mitigate this to a large extent today but probably increase braking distance compared to having the same tyre fitted to both sides. I like also to have tyres with similar wear on either side of a driven axle so as to minimize the work of the spider gears in the differential. Worth mentioning here too that if you have a permanent 4 wheel drive system it's a good idea to always try to keep all 4 tyres with similar tread depths - so this is one of the few situations where I would regularly rotate tyres - Big differences in tread depth means relatively big differences in RPM from wheel to wheel and some All Wheel Drives really can't cope with this and will fail prematurely. Actually a big difference in wear, so say an almost bald tyre on one wheel and a brand new one on another, will sometimes trigger the Tyre Pressure warning light on the dash. So if the light lights and you've checked ypour tyre pressures and found them to be correct this may be why. Sometimes a TPS reset will settle it down.

What I do not like are all these really cheap budget names which seem to come and go. They should all comply with European standards and have the CE mark so shouldn't be unsafe but I've seen some pretty crudely made examples with very heavy shoulders or stiff casing constuction etc. I suspect that the technology is pretty basic too. My son had a set with a name I've seen before on the budget racks and whilst not bad in the dry, stopping in the wet was more an expression of intention than fact! Mind you they lasted for absolutely ages and in the end he scrapped them when I showed him the deep cracks which were staring to expose the fabrick cords! If you take a look at the bottom of this: https://www.tyresavings.com/brands you'll see some of the multitude of weird names these tyres turn up with so it's not all that difficult to "clock" them.

Then there's Remoulds and part worns. I believe there is a place for remoulds, especially on lower powered motors which just toddle around the town all the time. Remould casings are subject to a quite rigorous examination before being accepted for processing so although generally my experience has been that they wear more quickly than a new tyre - but not always - their casings will be in good order. In my opinion you just can't say this about a part worn. You don't know to what abuse it may have been subjected during it's life and you need to check the build date (four figure letter on the sidewall ie 1214 would be 12th week of year 2014) if more than say 5 or 6 years old the rubber itself will have lost a lot of it's new resilience and it's ability to grip will be measurably less than when it was new regardless of how much tread is left on it. I know it's personal and often money related, but I'd never buy a part worn.

So, to directly answer your question, I may match the Barum in the boot to give me a pair for the front. The only problem with that plan is that although the wheel and tyre in the boot is a full size the rim itself is a steelie. So the tyre will have to be stripped off and refitted to one of the front alloys. I think I may end up buying the 2 Avons instead and anyway I really really want to try the Avons! I'm actually looking for a matching second hand alloy for the spare just now but haven't turned one up at a reasonable price yet - I know one will come along when the time is right though! Finally I'd say also that, although I'm going for a mid range tyre the price will always be a major decider for me so if my Avons are hardly being discounted at all but here's a bargain going on, say, the Falkens, I'll likely be buying the Falkens!
 
Interestingly aircraft often use remoulds - I think I'm right in saying the carcass can only undergo a remould once in its life after which its scrapped.
I find this astonishing when you consider several hunded tons of passangers and bags slam down onto the tarmac and the wheel assemblies are accelerated from 0 to about 160mph in a moment :eek:
 
I missed that last post of yours regarding the tyres.

Yes, I too am a bit wary of tyres - and more recently than ever really - particularly how running pressures have huge effect on handling. My last car, a Suzuki Jimny was particularly sensitive about pressures - the clowns at a local garage topped up my neighbour's Jimny to an average car tyre pressure of around 32psi and she almost went off the road after collecting the car from them. Twice now, she has had to rebuke the garage for that practice - I think they have learned the sharp side of her character now!

Just last week I had to change the two front tyres on Mrs Max's Vauxhall Agila - I asked the garage (Protyre at Carterton) to replace the two front tyres then fit the wheels on the rear which they did.
On the way back home the car felt like a piece of crap to drive.
On returning home and checking the recommended tyre pressures the book stated 30psi on the rear and 33psi on the front.
What I found was the new tyres on the rear were inflated to 40psi and the fronts were still at the rear pressure setting of 30psi :eek:
How many people would have just accepted the car as it was? In my opinion the car was in a dangerous configuration tyre-pressurewise.

As for tread depth - I start getting a bit itchy when they reach 3mm; this is from a bad experience I had when I ran into an unseen puddle at night when I had lowish tread remaining but well within the legal parameters - I stayed on the blacktop but only just; it was a heart-stopping moment and I needed a change of underwear immediately afterwards.

Yup Max, pressures are very important aren't they. Most people probably won't notice a few pounds of difference but I would venture to suggest that what you experienced there is not as unusual as all that. Tyre fitters will not uncommonly find a tyre has to be inflated to a fair bit over running pressure to get the bead to pop over the safety rim. Then it all depends on whether they can be bothered to consult a pressure chart to correctly set the tyre back to running pressure. Incorrectly set pressure of course constitute an offence for which the driver is responsible. Two or three weeks after the tyre was fitted, when you get stopped by the "boys in blue", who do you think is going to be held liable? - no prizes!

Balancing should always be done at the pressure the tyre is going to be run at too, if done at a substantially different pressure - often far to high due to the pressure needed to seat the beads - and the pressure is subsequently reduced you're likely to find you've got a steering shake - out of balance front wheels often, for some reason I don't know, will be worst at around 40 to 50 mph so if your out of balance force is not large you may not notice it if you run around town most of the time but the first time you go out of town you suddenly find you've got a steering "shimmy" as your speed increases.

Regarding deeper standing water or the unexpected muddy tractor trail, there is not a lot you can do if you run into this at speed and things can get very exciting! Our findings were that a normally wet road surface, even with water running across it, but I'm not talking about deep standing "puddles" here, could be quite well coped with by most of the tyres we were testing down to around 2mm of tread. below that it deteriorates quite rapidly and my own personal opinion is that 1.6mm should be treated as an absolute minimum acceptable depth for any real degree of safety in wet conditions. It might be tempting to think that a tyre with little tread pattern left might grip a dry road surface better (like a racing slick) but remember the interface between tread rubber and casing rubber will contain varying amounts of casing rubber and casing rubber is not designed to be "grippy" so that reasoning does not hold water.
 
The mainwheel tyres on the Airbus A330s are pretty big. The new tyres come fitted on a wheel with a few psi in them but would have had the beads seated on the wheel by tyre assembly bay, who would have done this with the wheel and tyre asspembly inside a safety cage.


When we fit the wheel/tyre assemblies on the jet the initial inflation pressure is set to is quite a few psi over the correct operating pressure because the tyres actually stretch!

If we set them to the correct pressure on the initial inflation, we'd be inflating them again in a few hours time!
 
Interestingly aircraft often use remoulds - I think I'm right in saying the carcass can only undergo a remould once in its life after which its scrapped.
I find this astonishing when you consider several hunded tons of passangers and bags slam down onto the tarmac and the wheel assemblies are accelerated from 0 to about 160mph in a moment :eek:
I never got involved with aircraft tyres Max but I remember having this conversation with my brother in law (the pilot) and being quite surprised at how many remoulds were in use. Also I've seen and handled a dismounted one and it was surprisingly heavy and robustly constructed.

The big thing to realize though is that the tyres themselves are built to a far higher standard with much more rigorous inspection compared to our car tyres and also the tread rubber is literally buffed away by the friction of being spun up so violently with each landing that the tread wears away quickly so the casing is not aging so much before it's due for the remoulding process.

I found this which might explain a wee bit: https://www.dunlopaircrafttyres.co.uk/technical/retreading-process/
 
If you take a look at the bottom of this: https://www.tyresavings.com/brands you'll see some of the multitude of weird names these tyres turn up with so it's not all that difficult to "clock" them.

Just to show how easy it is to get these sort of recommendations wrong though - I just noticed Fulda, which I think is part of Goodyear, and Vredestein, which I don't know much about but they've been around for years although I have a little voice saying in my ear that someone bought them a number of years ago? Both "names" i would consider buying.
 
I'd suggest you choose a tyre with a low noise rating. The Panda's suspension is relatively crude and quite a bit of road noise gets transmitted to the interior; low noise tyres help. For a basic Panda, Michelin Energys are good all round tyres and work well - I've had two sets now and they're a definite improvement on the OEM Continental EcoContacts. You're somewhat limited by what's available in 155/80x13, though; not many cars left using these tyres.

agreed a 2dB difference is noticeable
 
My punto came with Conti ECOs from the factory..

@45k I decided it was time for the Fronts to be swapped.. they had worn uniformly down to 2mm :)

They were listed as 'B for economy + B for noise'..similar for grip

I am now Wearing through the 'old-rears' ..now on the front.. 2012 mould dates.. so its about time

They are now rated As E,E and E..!!
they are the same brand and model.. :eek:

is this like EuroNCap.. where they keep moving the goal posts..? :(

Anyway the newer variants were rated B's for £5 more ( 'A' rated variants were £18 more per tyre..)

Anyway 2 x new B's fitted to the rear..

As jock predicted MPG was down..

The new rubber although 'eco' was gripping (dragging) more than the 8 year old 'grippy compound'

Im told there is no 'standard index' to all these A to E tyre ratings.. its down to the individual manufacturer..

Pot Luck..??
 
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I normally use Toyo NanoEnergy For 155/80R13 last time I looked they were the only tyre in this size for around £30 that was both quiet and not an E

They are
C for wet weather grip
C for economy
69 dB


I moved from E to C on the economy.
I use the computer to adjust my driving and try to keep below 55mph
I monitor my driving all the time and for years and thousands of miles
I always average an easy 60 plus mpg


what a noticed going from E to C


motorway driving makes no difference at all
City driving there is a small difference but only if you do a lot of coasting. Instead of breaking at junctions let it ease down you are rewarded with and extra 1 or 2 mpg.
 
Instead of breaking at junctions let it ease down you are rewarded with and extra 1 or 2 mpg.

Most modern fuel injection systems cut fuel delivery to zero when the engine is on the overrun. I've often wondered that if you slow down on the gears with the throttle closed - obviously avoiding a throttle "blip" as you downshift - whether you would save a worthwhile amount of fuel? Possibly saving brake linings too. Some might argue that gearbox wear will increase and, ultimately, the cost of a premature repair would cancel any saving but I don't lay any store by this as I've driven all my life slowing down on the gears and my cars typically go out to over 100,000 miles without much more by way of transmission repairs than the occasional new clutch being needed.
 
Most modern fuel injection systems cut fuel delivery to zero when the engine is on the overrun

It's not quite that simple. Fuel delivery is cut off providing engine rpm stays above a threshold value; for the 1.2, it's in the 1500 rpm region. Below that, the engine management system will start to feed in fuel to keep the engine running smmothly. You can try this one for yourself; from about 45 mph in 5th on a level road, just take your foot completely off the throttle and wait. Once you've decelerated to about 35mph, you'll notice a slight decrease in the deceleration rate as the fuel begins to be fed in. It's subtle, but completely reproducable.

I've often wondered that if you slow down on the gears with the throttle closed

For best economy, you need to avoid all forms of braking as much as possible; this includes engine braking. Basically you're trying to minimise the amount of energy you have to put into the car to complete your journey; using the engine as a brake is taking energy out of the system.

Serious ecodrivers sometimes do some quite weird stuff; have a read of some of their forums if you're interested (but don't try it at home! :eek:).
 
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agreed a 2dB difference is noticeable
I find that the road surface is more the problem, a stretch of the M25 is like concrete and most unpleasant to drive on no matter which tyres you are running, the panda is not very refined, the insulation is not very good at suppressing road noise and neither is my wife's Tigra, it depends on the car and most cars are far from quiet, my Merc on the other hand is very quiet, the double glazing and soundproofing is exceptional, I love the roar of the V8 engine in the summer except for the 22mpg and £600 per year roadtax, but in the winter it's not usable, the door glass freeze up and won't drop, so the doors won't open, I declare Sorn to save some cash, and that makes the Panda much more useful most of the time.
 
I find that the road surface is more the problem, a stretch of the M25 is like concrete and most unpleasant to drive on no matter which tyres you are running, the panda is not very refined, the insulation is not very good at suppressing road noise and neither is my wife's Tigra, it depends on the car and most cars are far from quiet, my Merc on the other hand is very quiet, the double glazing and soundproofing is exceptional, I love the roar of the V8 engine in the summer except for the 22mpg and £600 per year roadtax, but in the winter it's not usable, the door glass freeze up and won't drop, so the doors won't open, I declare Sorn to save some cash, and that makes the Panda much more useful most of the time.

of course some roads are louder than others


the tyres I took off were 92dB the ones I put on were 89dB because the dB scale isn't linear ever 3dB is equivalent to doubling the energy


It isn't half as quite in the car but is noticeable.
 
of course some roads are louder than others


the tyres I took off were 92dB the ones I put on were 89dB because the dB scale isn't linear ever 3dB is equivalent to doubling the energy


It isn't half as quite in the car but is noticeable.

Really..!!

I was choosing between 68 and 70db

Conti Eco 3 vs Eco 5
 
It's not quite that simple. Fuel delivery is cut off providing engine rpm stays above a threshold value; for the 1.2, it's in the 1500 rpm region. Below that, the engine management system will start to feed in fuel to keep the engine running smmothly. You can try this one for yourself; from about 45 mph in 5th on a level road, just take your foot completely off the throttle and wait. Once you've decelerated to about 35mph, you'll notice a slight decrease in the deceleration rate as the fuel begins to be fed in. It's subtle, but completely reproducable.



For best economy, you need to avoid all forms of braking as much as possible; this includes engine braking. Basically you're trying to minimise the amount of energy you have to put into the car to complete your journey; using the engine as a brake is taking energy out of the system.

Serious ecodrivers sometimes do some quite weird stuff; have a read of some of their forums if you're interested (but don't try it at home! :eek:).

If you wanted the best eco driving would be to accelerate to say 65 mph shift to neutral and turn the engi off but then back to ignition to have lights wipers ect and coast in neutral until something like 55 and repeat process


Obviously not advisable and could be rather dangerous
 
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