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Moderators

Steve said:
I'm not online for an arguement. That's how things are. Take it or leave it. There is plenty of choice out there when it comes to internet forums and yet FF has over 11,000 members. We must be doing something terribly wrong...



Ahh but how many members have been lost? I'm sorry Steve if you took my last comment the wrong way, I think most people will agree that if they are met with arrogance or hostility then that is what they will return, I think that is what was originally meant by this thread. I may be wrong.
 
I am not a mod but I think it is vital that everyone stops responding to these remarks, then takes a look at this thread tomorrow in the cold light of day. It seems to be turning very personal and I think everyone should just stop for now and calm down.

Same time tomorrow everyone?
 
sumplug said:
a moderator gets/becomes nominated because they have posted some helpful advice.does this then give them powers to be boss over things.?
no they dont, that helps, but knowing what is and isnt excepted by 90% of the forum is more of what makes a good mod.

there are a lot of people who are very good at tech stuff but will never be moderators, sadly
 
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Ben R said:
Ahh but how many members have been lost? I'm sorry Steve if you took my last comment the wrong way, I think most people will agree that if they are met with arrogance or hostility then that is what they will return, I think that is what was originally meant by this thread. I may be wrong.

Read my post in context though Ben. To give it context here is gregit's original post which was moved off the forum;

gregit said:
Just looking around some of the posts.....

The Moderators seem to be able to run all over the place and are stopping some honest fun threads from growing.....

Power corrupts.....

An example, 'Luke...' being banned has taken a light hearted element away from this forum.
 
I am asking you guys nicely to drop it now and calm down, and this can be sorted tomorrow, this is getting us no where.
 
I went out for a bit and came back to this!!! What a thread.

Steve, we discussed briefly in PM about my concerns, but you seem to have forgotten your sentiment.

Your replies do appear to be abusive. Perhaps to me, but others seem to think it to.

I have enjoyed using this forum, but now I am unsure if I will ever return.

I can understand your point of view Steve, but your wording leaves a lot to be desired. Helz is the diplomat.

I am aware that you may interprit this to be a personal attack, which will probally be deleted, but going back to my original point. Who will edit or delete your posts?
 
Steve said:
I stand by my post. When I logged on and seen this I had a little chuckle to myself.

Get this. This is an internet forum owned by Ben. If he wanted he could pull the plug on it tomorrow and he can choose how it's run. Some people need to think this through. This isn't a democracy, you don't have a right to be here. You are here simply through Ben's good will in setting up and running the site. Ben chooses his moderators and we work as a team, we discuss how things are going and discuss everything before action is taken. Some people need to wake up and smell the coffee.

I've had a good read through this and come to a conclusion.

Steve's right.

We never have and never will put up with rubbish, regardless of the level of whingeing. As has been said, no one person can be expected to read all the posts on here, so if something offensive goes unreported and unread by a moderator it may not get acted upon.
 
And so you guys don't think we have our own mod battles backstage? We are not all 'yes men', we don't all agree on the same things, which is why we go with a 'majority'.

As for recent people banned - that said person made 2 other 'fake' accounts to post on, and therefore cause trouble - is that something we should discuss publicly between you lot, or backstage?

It seems that certain members log on every few days, and wondering 'why is that person banned', but then they have never seen the build up to that situation, because all the evidence is taken away and assimilated by us...

As for banned people on this forum - 27 user accounts so far, although a far few of those are the same person - not bad considering the membership base on here, is it :)

It is not an easy job to make snap decisions sometimes, but it has to be done in the right situations. Sometimes decisions take slightly longer because things are discussed - no one mod has autonomous control, because if we did 'power abuse', Ben the leader would ban us as well.
 
Ben R said:
...the last time I looked we live in a democratic society which in my view applies to everything in the UK (or at least it should do).:chin:
The UK has a (mostly) democratically elected government, but it certainly doesn't apply to everything in the UK. Besides which, the FF server isn't in the UK :p
H
 
at the end of the day we are a fiat forum with a leisure lounge, we are not a cruise site, so we don't expect the same standards as they have, there is suttle having a laugh and there is full on, some posts are deleted to actually help the person who posted them keep a bit of respect.
 
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Steve said:
Read my post in context though Ben. To give it context here is gregit's original post which was moved off the forum;



That's fine mate:) I was commenting on this thread though, & from personal experience of late.
 
*** Warning *** I have only had 4 hours sleep and I'm not proof reading this, so expect some bits to be a bit dis-jointed (y)

Ok sorry about that guys, but due to the time difference (I'm 9 hours forward) - I had to go to bed and didn't want everything kicking off when I was sleeping so couldn't reply.

I only got a few hours sleep though, so my brain is still a little hazy :)

Let's start with the basics:

Moderators are employed for 2 reasons: 1 they know about their section, so should be recognised as "the person to go to" for any specific help (ie, you have a problem that has yielded no results on the forum - pressure them to help you ;)) and secondly to deal with unruly posts / members.

This second one however is not as clear cut as that (and generally is now more of a mix).

A post is reported, the report will go to a special backstage forum (as well as being posted by email to the forum moderator) - if it is something that is pretty obvious what needs to be done (like maybe, someone has threatened someone else) - then the moderator can immediately take it offline.

If it is a subjective complaint, then a group discussion is called for - during which time, the thread may or may not be locked by the forum admin. When there is a clear agreement, action is taken.

Now, assuming no one was about to vote on the subject, the thread would be moved backstage until a vote / decision could be made. Posts do come back from backstage, a lot of the time you won't notice - they are pulled, cleaned up and returned.

There is no point however cleaning a post and putting it back when it will blatantly kick off again - thus it will stay banned.

Now let me see, where was I .... ah yes, so all major decisions are voted on by everyone backstage - so no one can have a power trip ;) Posts can also never be permanently deleted (even if someone wanted to) - so they can always be returned if need be.

User banning is a lot more serious, and is discussed in great lenght backstage first. A user will be contacted about their conduct first and given the option to change their ways. Actually a lot of the time, they will get a few warnings. If they don't / won't change though and are causing trouble then yes, they will be banned.

However, we have yet to have a case where a user is banned where no one (non moderators) have reported it - so yes, you do have a voice.

Which brings me onto reported posts.

Some of you are complaining that someone can say something about you, but when you retaliate they report the post and it is pulled. Now, this to me is logical?? If you have not reported the post, we can assume you have no problem with the content, so it would stay - if someone else does, then it has to be looked at.

Moderators cannot also read every single bit of every post - if something offends you, report it, then as explained above it is very easy to action. (and will go through the whole voting process). If something really bad is still there, it will mean no one has spotted it (not that the member is part of our gang ;)) - so report it!

It is sometimes hard to tell if members are joking about with each other (as they know each other) - or are serious - hence the reason sometimes seemingly offensive posts are left (until complaint) - at the same time, sometimes a post will look offensive (when it isnt) but will be pulled - it is hard to judge......

All this talk of freedom of speech - if this were true, I could go to parliament square and preach about bombing the london eye - that's freedom of speech? Of course you have the right to speak out, however please be reasonable - if you are offending other people / insulting others - then we have to take their feelings into consideration....

Ok, now the moderator level.

Despite what is thought, a super moderator does not have a higher authority than a normal moderator. Super Moderator means they are able to move / delete posts in any forum, however if the forum is not their moderated forum, they must leave ample time for the actual mod to do it.

We had a lot of problems with troublesome users causing havok in forums where the moderator wasn't online - so a solution was needed ... this was in the form of the super mods. Don't think they can just ban you at will, it doesn't work like this - the same vote has to be passed as with the deleted posts.

Ok, so if the vote isn't working and someone needs to make a final decision (and this is like so rare, I can't think of a time...), this will usually go to Pete. Why Pete you say, well due to my timezoning, all the important decisions will usually need to be made whilst i am asleep..... I just run the technical side of things / any forum wide decisions (not user based).

Like has been said, yes this is my site - however I trust my moderators enough to be able to make any important decisions without me - surely this shows their trustworthyness?

If you have a problem with a moderator though, yes, ultimately you would come to me (and don't worry - I won't pass your details on....)

Well I've now completely forgotten what I've written above, lol.... but I shall continue (eyes starting to droop ... speech slurring... lol)

So thats the mod level pan out and what they do... we've done the voting thing, whats left .... hmmm....

As this clickiness thing - no, nobody has any special treatment over anyone else (believe me, some moderators feel very differently about some people than others - however a good ruling is always preferred over a bad one) - so don't worry if you feel a moderator has a grudge against you, it won't affect anything.... (except at meets when they might beat you up, but hey :D)

I think thats the admin side of the forum sorted now, feel free to ask any other questions... which just brings me to the original complaint :D

"you seem to think this is a democracy" - or words to that effect.

I must admit, when i read this is made me laugh, as I knew this was spoken slightly tongue in cheek - however I know a lot of you didn't see this... I'll also admit the follow up comments weren't what I expected... however, Steve will return later, so before I say anything, I'll let him have his say...

So, let's see - yes all of you guys are very important to me and the forum and we do try our best to make sure everyone is happy - however with so many people this isn't always going to happen.

Any important decisions are voted on thus making sure there is fairness and no victimisation against anyway.

A moderators decision can be overridden by myself, however there has yet to be a need for this.

We don't like fighting on here (it not only makes the place less friendly, but looks bad for new members) - and if a thread is starting to get ugly, it will be pulled ... and no usually it won't come back (as the fight would just flair up again).

I had another reason too, erm..... ah yes, knowing why a user has been banned. This is (I believe) something that should just be kept between the moderators and that person - there is no need for the public to know, but suffice to say it will have been for a good reason.

And finally, if you have a problem with a moderator - PM me and I will look into it for you (but expect a reply at some very strange time of night ;))

Phew - I hope that covered everything.....

Any questions - feel free to post below.
 
i have to stop doing so much overtime, and start logging on here more.....look what i missed!

back to topic, i can remember a few posts where reference is made to other forums/sites/message boards etc where an apparant lack of control in any form has led to a virtual war online. not a great image, and i dont think in keeping with what we have on here. one of the best tools in here is the one that blanks out the profanities, yet no one complains there rights to free speech are being violated, just that the use when it does get through is abusive, etc.

the alternative is out there, total unmoderation, no rules, no contraints. but as an alternative to here, i feel it would be a pretty poor place.
 
I was member to a few car forums before this one, and even joined that Traffic Answers Forum that is advertised in another sections on this forum and non of which I wished to stay at.

Some people were always insulting others and nothing would ever get answered, some mods were siding with there friends and deleting people who really had not done anything wrong.

I got into one massive Argument regarding the luxuries of my Tipo and Vauxhall Cavs on a cruise site because someone said something out of line and I shut them up by using all the powers of the Tipo 2.0 16v and they could'nt say their cav had more extras. Then I met up with a few of them and they loved me motor so they went back and helped with the defence of the Tipo which was great then that Forum disappeared off the face of the earth.

On Traffic Answers there are some members who just plain don't like young people, you mention the word cruise or Neon and everyone arms themselves with flamers and has a go and even one of the mods joined in. I initially liked the sensible, educational topics going on but some of them people just wern't human and had very little or no emotion to be able to discuss something with.

I like it here, get the mad meets, the friendly atmosphere a section to discuss random things and advice on how to do things to my car, its great and I've even donated because of all this but as the winter months have crept in some of the randomness is geting deleted and I can't see why.

If anything changes to go and unfriendly and our good memebers decide to stop posting as they may feel they are not being taken seriouilsy or are being victimised then I want a refund :p
 
Steve said:
I think this should be left as it is now. Ben's post above is detailed and should answer all the questions that were put on this thread.

The only thing I would like to say is I didn't expect or want this to turn into an attack on Steve or moderators in general. I just wanted to highlight a comment, which I thought wasn't a good way to explain how things are moderated. Nothing more or nothing less.

So Steve, sorry you were the focus for the discussion which got way off track.
 
This reply will probably be out of sync as I wrote it yesterday, during ehich Ben locked the thread. As I spent a bit of time writing it, I might as well post it, otherwise all that effort would have been wasted....................

Right I just read all this and this is my (possibly warped) take on things. :)

We all agreed to the Terms and Conditions, moderators and normal users alike.
Steve possibly could have tried to be a bit more tactful in his reply.

With regards to Luke being banned........IIRC he posted some daft threads, totally out there and you could say a bit :nutter: I don't know exactly what got him banned, but, as had been said before, you wouldn't go to your boss to find out why a work collegue had been fired. It put it bluntly, the exact circumstances are none of our business. IMO its a similar situation here. Has anyone thought that it might actually be embarassing for Luke? If he's flouted the T&Cs, that's all we need to know, and that he recieved fair warning that he was breaking T&Cs and given a chance to change his attitude.

This forum is not a strict democratic society; Ben was not voted as leader, he's leader as he set all this up and kicked FF off. The moderators are not elected by ordinary members, other moderators and Ben decide amongst themselves who gets offered the chance to become a moderator. To be blunt, anyone who doesn't agree to it doesn't have to be here. Harsh but true IMO.

Moderators are only human. You cannot expect them to get things 100% right 100% of the time. I had a thread deleted recently, but no explaination via PM. So I went off to find out why, just out of curiousity, and I found why, and I'm cool with it being deleted. I didn't flout T&Cs as far as I am aware, but my thread could have caused others to flout T&Cs. If something of yours is moderated, and you can't be bothered to do a bit of legwork (or fingerwork ;) )to find out for your self, then perhaps you really don't deserve to know. Nobody is here to spoonfeed you stuff. Of course it is nice to know that someone took the time to explain to you why something got moderated, which happens the vast majority of the time IME.

Ben R, IMO public and democratic are 2 different things. Any old Joe can browse this forum, hence it being called public. Nothing to do with democracy :). And I don't think there's a degree of favouritism on this forum. I certainly haven't looked at the various sub forums and felt there was favouritism here. An example would be nice. (y)
With regards to the forum being in the UK...................this is a virtual world, right? All this exsists in a metal box, in a room, in some building in the USA.


All in all, I think the mods do a fairly solid job considering. You can't please everyone. You may want to, but you can't. :)
 
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